Geothermal Systems

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Niel, about the Geothermal HVAC it has exploded here in north Texas. They are installing it in all the low income H.U D. homes because if cost less then 40 to 50 cents per day over the period of a year to heat and cool the HUD homes using the geothermal, a great cost savings. Remember the S.E.E.R. rating on these units is 27. Also all the Dallas city government building are being converted to Geothermal, and all the Dallas Independent Schools are being converted.That is the problem. The Geothermal companies are making so much money on all the huge contracts that they do want to be bothered by the little single resident jobs. There is also a company here in Richardson that is making a wind generator that can provide over 10 kW. It is a turbine like design similar to those little spinning turbines you see on the roofs that let the heat out of the attic in the summer time, only it is about four feet hight and three feet square. They are installing them on office buildings in downtown Dallas. Also the company will not deal with the single buyer, they are selling over 10,000 units to Canada, and one of the local area builders Fox and Jacobs Homes has a contract to purchase a large number that will be installed on their very expensive homes. I am still building the heat exchanger that will store the wasted heat from the generator and transfer the heat energy to the domestic hot water heater using synthetic hydraulic oil. I am going to use the engine coolant and engine oil temperature of 195 to 220 degrees instead of the exhaust gas temperature 800 to 1200 degrees. I am putting together a DC generator using a 24 volt 140 amp alternator with a low speed 12 hp propane engine as an emergency backup battery charger. Remember everything in the large  project has a redundant backup system, the inverter, batteries, generator, water pump, solar panels, wind generator, solar water heater, everything must have a backup system. Thats just about everthing I can think of to catch you up to date with me. I will try to keep posting things as the project moves ahead. arcandspark

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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
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    Re: Texas Oil Well's reduce oil flow by one half.

    Ok Mr. Bad Apple its a little over one doller per day, $35 per month for both heating and cooling utility bills, here are a few samples of some of the geothermal homes, I can not find the web site with the one that is 50 cents per day. Check out the specs for your self. As for the 27 S.E.E.R. the company name is Climate Master I can get you their web site to if you need. arcandspark

    http://www.geoexchange.org/pdf/cs-038.pdf

    http://www.geoexchange.org/pdf/cs-019.pdf

    http://www.geoexchange.org/pdf/cs-020.pdf

    http://www.geoexchange.org/pdf/cs-031.pdf

    http://www.geoexchange.org/pdf/CS-090.pdf

    http://www.geoexchange.org/residential/case.htm


  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Geothermal Systems

    i split this off into its own thread as it waranted it.
    in my reading it says that they like to go down 10ft or more for these systems. that would be a problem for me here with bedrock under the property about 5-10ft down depending on which part of the property i'd be talking of. what do they do when they run into this? my guess is they can't do it because the temps more closely follow the air temperatures. am i right?
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,533 admin
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    Re: Geothermal Systems

    The link is:

    http://www.climatemaster.com/

    They have a movie you can watch:

    http://www.climatemaster.com/Movie.htm

    From the movie, they use two standard methods, if you have lots of land, they dig several 5' trenches (don't say how big) or if you don't have the space or have rocky soil, they drill several (3-6, or more?) 150-200' deep wells and drop a loop down each one (and back fill). They can also use an existing water well--if it meets the needs (whatever those needs may be).

    Sounds pretty nice if a 4,000 sqft house (in Texas?) averages $75 dollars per month (heating/cooling/and may include domestic hot water).

    Here is another company that was recommended in the news groups:

    http://www.hydronmodule.com/

    Sounds like folks have to lay lots of ground loops to make the systems efficient--and some customers are getting problems because of the undersized ground loops. One can also use live wells (extract and dump or re-inject). Sounds like lots of money at risk and lots of research is needed by anyone installing one of these units.

    -Bill

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
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    Re: Geothermal Systems

    One more for you to check out Bad Apple:

    Here is a home that was open to the public for touring in April.

    After a few years away from holding the open house tours we are back on the circuit.  We’ll throw open the doors for tours on Saturday, April 22nd (Earth Day) from 11am – 2pm.   Elena and I alternate leading groups through the house and cover passive solar design, SIP panels, low-E windows, active solar water heating, geothermal heat pumps, enthalpy wheel fresh air units, rainwater collection, and anything else the audience is interested in including our 2004 and 2006 Prius cars.  You can also enjoy our 2.2 acres of native trees and grass including the low maintenance buffalo grass lawn.

    We’ve been in the house almost 10 years now.  It’s a 2,700 sf all electric home and our electric bill has averaged about $70/month.   We’ve only gone over $100 for 10 of the 113 months we’ve been here with a recent peak of $148 thanks to the electric rate hikes.   Our average water use has been under 3,000 gallons / month.

    http://www.enerjazz.com/house/present/index.htm

  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
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    Re: Geothermal Systems

    I was wrong about the S.E.E. R. being 27 on the Geothermal unit we are planning to use for our off grid home.I found out the unit we are looking at is a Climat Master Tranquility 27, that number refers to EER, not SEER. Geo units are not rated in SEER. A rough comparison can be guessed but not precisely. EER is a real number that is calculated by dividing btuh output by watts. SEER is an extremely complicated number that requires approximately 40 calculations to find. Air source units are rated in SEER (seasonal energy efficiency ratio)which comes out with a much higher number than the EER does. The 27 EER Tranquility actually runs up in the 33 SEER range. Now that is some real effeiciency when you figure most air to air conditioner systems installed now adays is only rated around S.E.E.R. of 12 to 14... arcandspark
  • Brock
    Brock Solar Expert Posts: 639 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Geothermal Systems

    The SEER numbers have always driven me nuts. It should just be a straight BTU to watts. So the heat pumps I am using pull 475w and put out 6000 BTU cooling. So that’s 6000/475=12.75 EER? Although I use the hot water to heat the pool so really I am not wasting the heat either. My old small window AC is rated at 5500BTU and used 850w so that is about 6.5

    I like this ERR MUCH better, easy to compare one unit to another, although I am sure there is some reason SEER must be more accurate?
    3kw solar PV, 4 LiFePO4 100a, xw 6048, Honda eu2000i, iota DLS-54-13, Tesla 3, Leaf, Volt, 4 ton horizontal geothermal, grid tied - Green Bay, WI
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,533 admin
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    Re: Geothermal Systems

    From what I have read, EER is the efficiency ratio at a specific test condition. SEER basically is the average EER over an entire season.

    http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/cooling-heating-efficiency-d_410.html
    The term SEER is used to define the average annual cooling efficiency of an air-conditioning or heat pump system. The term SEER is similar to the term EER but is related to a typical (hypothetical) season rather than for a single rated condition. The SEER is a weighted average of EERs over a range of rated outside air conditions following a specific standard test method. The term is generally applied to systems less than 60,000 Btu/h. The units of SEER are Btu/W h. It is important to note that this efficiency term typically includes the energy requirements of auxiliary systems such as the indoor and outdoor fans. For purposes of comparison, the higher the SEER the more efficient the system. Although SEERs and EERs cannot be directly compared, the SEERs usually range from 0.5 to 1.0 higher than corresponding EERs.

    In summer, the SEER is probably a "higher number" as it includes cooler parts of the season (where an AC unit is more efficient).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset