Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?

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Amishdude
Amishdude Solar Expert Posts: 29 ✭
in Solar Beginners Corner #1
Perhaps a stupid question (for which I seem to have a knack for asking)

Say 5 years down the road your solar batteries fail and you cannot obtain new ones. Is there any way to power sensitive electronic equipment (ham radio, laptop, TV, etc.) DIRECTLY from the panels while the sun is shining? I assume you'd need a voltage regulating device to protect the load from over/under voltage.

What could one do to achieve this?
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  • The Only Sarge
    The Only Sarge Solar Expert Posts: 164 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?

    You can use something like this for a diversion controller....
    http://www.solar-electric.com/tracc35solch.html
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  • Amishdude
    Amishdude Solar Expert Posts: 29 ✭
    #3
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?
    The Only Sarge wrote: »
    You can use something like this for a diversion controller....
    http://www.solar-electric.com/tracc35solch.html

    So the setup would go:
    SOLAR PANELS --> FUSE --> DIVERSION CONTROLLER --> FUSE --> 12V LOAD?

    Anybody know if they make a 9V/C/D/AA/AAA battery charger that can run off of a direct 12DC power source?
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #4
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?

    I am not quite sure what you mean by "solar batteries"...

    If you are asking about the Lead Acid batteries for your off-grid system... You could find/make a charge controller (linear or switching) that would regulate the output voltage of the solar panel to 13.8 VDC (or whatever you need).

    However, this is not commonly done. The panels + sunlight must be greater than the power required by the loads. When the sun starts to go down or clouds cause shading, the solar panel output will collapse and the load will probably stop working. But, yes, with panel current >> than load, you could setup a system to operate during the middle of the day.

    The ability of the lead acid batteries to store power and provide it when needed (day or night) usually makes the system much more useful.

    If you need a system to last a decade or two without battery replacement--Look for 15-20 year life batteries (not cheap). And keep them properly charged and watered.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Amishdude
    Amishdude Solar Expert Posts: 29 ✭
    #5
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?
    BB. wrote: »
    I am not quite sure what you mean by "solar batteries"...

    If you are asking about the Lead Acid batteries for your off-grid system... You could find/make a charge controller (linear or switching) that would regulate the output voltage of the solar panel to 13.8 VDC (or whatever you need).

    However, this is not commonly done. The panels + sunlight must be greater than the power required by the loads. When the sun starts to go down or clouds cause shading, the solar panel output will collapse and the load will probably stop working. But, yes, with panel current >> than load, you could setup a system to operate during the middle of the day.

    The ability of the lead acid batteries to store power and provide it when needed (day or night) usually makes the system much more useful.

    If you need a system to last a decade or two without battery replacement--Look for 15-20 year life batteries (not cheap). And keep them properly charged and watered.

    -Bill

    Yes, Bill, "solar batteries" are my storage medium for my off-grid system. I am having one helluva time getting my system "balanced" with proper cycling (charging and regular draw-down) and am consequently shortening the life of my expensive Rolls S-530 batteries.

    Since I'm likely "killing" them and will likely not be able to find or afford replacements, here's what I have in mind.

    My real need for solar energy is to provide a battery charging station for small batteries. I'd like to connect my Kyocera panels through a "charge controller" to a 12V powered multi-unit battery charger to charge larger quantities of 9V, C, D, AA, AAA Li-ion batteries. I'd also like to periodically connect my ham rig to do some short term receiving/broadcasting.

    Hope that helps clear things up a bit. :blush:
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #6
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?

    You can find some (smaller?) chargers that have a 12 VDC adapter for automotive use:

    MH-C401FS 100 Min Cool Charger with Car Adapter
    MH-C490F Stealth Two Hour Compact 4 Bank 9-Volt Charger

    The larger chargers appear to be 120/240 VAC only--I do not know if you can bypass their AC supply and run direct from DC:

    MH-C808M Ultimate Professional Charger for Eight AA/AAA/C/D NiMH / NiCD

    With 12 volt automotive adapters, I would disconnect from your solar PV system if you are equalizing the battery bank. the 15+ volts used to equalize storage batteries by many charge controllers has been known to damage 12 VDC cigarette plug adapters.

    You might be better off, in the long term, to get a good quality 120 VAC TSW (True Sine Wave) Inverter to power the larger battery chargers.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #7
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?

    You probably would be better off just getting a couple "golf cart" batteries to run your HAM and smaller battery chargers (if the Surrette do not work out for you--another issue).

    It is sort of difficult to find efficient switch mode power supplies that can take the 15-22 volts or so of a "12 volt" solar panel and give stable 12 VDC output (or whatever voltage you need.

    For "emergency" recharging--You could setup a panel with current limiting (resistor, electronic power supply) to recharge your AA-D batteries... If you charge at a rate of C/10 you can usually get away without a true charge controller (C/10 without a charge controller should not overheat the batteries--but is a bit hard on the batteries so you will probably not get maximum life).

    Analog voltage regulators (3-Terminal and such) tend to be more stable and easier to use in this type of application--but they can be horrendously inefficient.

    Switching supplies tend to be a bit more difficult to work with/design for this application (solar panel -> load without a battery bank).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • bsolar
    bsolar Solar Expert Posts: 103 ✭✭✭
    #8
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?

    depending on the size of the system and setup im thinking the panels can power an inverter in sun up to whatever wattage they can supply but havent tested that yet .. its a good test to document im going to try it .. ive thought about that situation as well if the 'shtf' or theres a collapse of any sort in society replacing the bank would not be something you can run to the store to buy. Likely there will be fuel shortage to though in that situation and plenty of 'unused vehicles' laying around to rob the batterys out of but thats another story :p

    .. as far as powering small-battery chargers they make relatively inexpensive and quite capable fully adjustable voltage and amperage as well as voltage sensing/auto cutoff at full charge - chargers for radio control 'hobby' type models that run on 12-18V input ... may require re-wiring your panels to 12V scheme but imo would be no problem in a survival type situation. You would want to probably 'make up' some cheap battery cradles for whatever cells you want to charge so you have an easy harness to hook to the charger. Anyway, charging regular AA or any other type of small rechargeable batterys from the solar panels will be easy as pie with the right charger trust me ..

    example --> http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbycity/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=7028
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  • Amishdude
    Amishdude Solar Expert Posts: 29 ✭
    #9
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?

    I'll say it again....solar energy sure has a steep (and expensive) learning curve and poses some seemingly simple technological challenges. Assembling a large-scale solar powered D-AAA charging station "shouldn't" be the rocket science that it's turning out to be. :cry:
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #10
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?

    Off grid inverters can't run off solar panels alone because there is no battery to regulate the Voltage and current. They need a "dependable" source to draw on while being asked to supply varying loads. Grid tie inverters on the other hand take whatever the panels are putting out and feed it to the house/grid. Since there's always some place for the power to go, there's no problem with the variations.

    Charging small batteries from solar isn't a problem either, because they are batteries. Same principal as recharging "solar" batteries; only the specifics of Voltage and current levels change. As long as the panel output is regulated according to the charge needs of the batteries involved, it works.

    Most everything else needs that consistency of available Volts/Amps that batteries provide. You really can't run a radio with the DC input going from zero to 22 Volts and the current likewise ranging all over the place. Devices that are run directly from solar are built to do so; regulated supply with a capacitor sized to smooth out the peaks and valleys.

    The dump load mentioned earlier tends to be of the resistance type such as a water heater. It also doesn't much care what gets put to it as it is a fixed value capable of taking any Voltage up to its limit. It will put out a varying amount of heat in proportion to the amount of power applied. Exceed the power limit on it (or anything else) and it will go "poof!" Fuses are always a good idea.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #11
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?

    Yep on all counts.

    The modern battery chargers (Lead Acid, NiCAD, NiMH, Lithum, etc.) are usually microprocessor controlled and need stable power so they can monitor the charging process. Not many are really setup to function correctly with constantly changing inuput power (D/C/AA/AAA etc. battery chargers).

    The good quality MPPT battery charge controllers take quite a bit of design work to properly recharge their attached battery banks (and even then, they have been known to have issues).

    Low rate battery charging (C/10 and less) is "simple" compared with the C/2 and C/1 and higher battery charge rates. Look at the C Crane "High Power" solar chargers (~0.16 amps). Will take days or a week to recharge a simple AA NiMH battery.

    Add the requirement to connect to a solar panel to take any voltage from zero to 25+ volts with variable mount of current (depending on amount of sunlight)--is a design task in itself.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Amishdude
    Amishdude Solar Expert Posts: 29 ✭
    #12
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?

    Well, thanks a lot Cariboocoot and BB for shooting down my feeble dream. ;)

    I guess I'll just have to go back to PLAN A and use the batteries, charge controller and inverter with my 110VAC cell chargers and pray that nothing in this fragile system fails. Can't afford multiple redundancy.

    One of your engineering types stands to make a small fortune if you can develop a system to do what I had wanted to do. :p
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #13
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?
    Amishdude wrote: »
    Well, thanks a lot Cariboocoot and BB for shooting down my feeble dream. ;)

    I guess I'll just have to go back to PLAN A and use the batteries, charge controller and inverter with my 110VAC cell chargers and pray that nothing in this fragile system fails. Can't afford multiple redundancy.

    One of your engineering types stands to make a small fortune if you can develop a system to do what I had wanted to do. :p

    Sure! It's simple. Of course getting permission to suspend the laws of physics could be a bit tricky ... :p
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  • Amishdude
    Amishdude Solar Expert Posts: 29 ✭
    #14
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Sure! It's simple. Of course getting permission to suspend the laws of physics could be a bit tricky ... :p
    Well...it's worth a shot. Who do I ask? :D
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #15
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?

    But still, Amishdude, spending some additional time to try to get your existing system running well may be well worth the time.

    Sounds as if you have made a reasonable investment in the existing system. There are many helpful folks here that may be some help in getting what you have working well. Hope you will not give up too early, in anticipation of a possible future failure.

    altho, I have not studied all of your posts, and your signature was not particularly informative, regarding your system components.

    Anyway, 73, GL, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • Amishdude
    Amishdude Solar Expert Posts: 29 ✭
    #16
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?
    Vic wrote: »
    But still, Amishdude, spending some additional time to try to get your existing system running well may be well worth the time.

    Sounds as if you have made a reasonable investment in the existing system. There are many helpful folks here that may be some help in getting what you have working well. Hope you will not give up too early, in anticipation of a possible future failure.

    altho, I have not studied all of your posts, and your signature was not particularly informative, regarding your system components.

    Anyway, 73, GL, Vic
    Thanks for the encouragement, Vic.

    Here's where I stand today:
    • 2 - Kyocera KD-135-GX-LPU 135W Panels (plan to buy 2 more)
    • 2 - Rolls-Surrette S-530 6V batteries (new 10/1020)
    • 1 - Morningstar SS20L-12V Charge controller
    • 1 - Samlex PS-60S-12A 600W Pure Sine inverter
    Again, just trying to run the ham rig an hour or two every few days and charge LOTS of AA/AAA Eneloop batteries.

    I was on here a while back and was told that I needed more panels to properly service the S-530's. I've saved enough money to buy another pair of Kyoceras, but then I''l need to buy a bigger charge controller. :confused:

    The batteries have NOT been charge/discharge cycled properly since I bought them in October. I've kept the water level properly maintained, but that's about it.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #17
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?

    Since you have AC power--You should get a "cheap" good sized battery charger to help. You can size the charger to your backup genset (if/when you have one) and you will have more options for backup/battery maintenance.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Amishdude
    Amishdude Solar Expert Posts: 29 ✭
    #18
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?
    BB. wrote: »
    Since you have AC power--You should get a "cheap" good sized battery charger to help. You can size the charger to your backup genset (if/when you have one) and you will have more options for backup/battery maintenance.

    -Bill
    Yeah, the thing is that we really didn't want to invest in an AC charger since we are planning to "pull the plug" relatively soon.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #19
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?

    If you plan on a back up AC genest anyway--You should probably get a backup AC charger too (not an easy task to find the "optimum" charger for your genset).

    What are the reasons you want/need to "unplug"?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Amishdude
    Amishdude Solar Expert Posts: 29 ✭
    #20
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?
    BB. wrote: »
    If you plan on a back up AC genest anyway--You should probably get a backup AC charger too (not an easy task to find the "optimum" charger for your genset).

    What are the reasons you want/need to "unplug"?

    -Bill
    I do NOT have nor do I plan to have a backup genset. The only source of electricity will be this small system I've outlined and those items that can be powered with the small rechargeable batteries (flashlights, radios, etc.) Again, pretty much a glorified battery charger and a means to power my Icom IC-735.

    Reason for unplugging? Simplicity (I thought). :blush: We really don't use very much AC at all. We're about as close to "real" Amish as you can get without dressing the part.
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #21
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?

    Here's what I did, and you can replace the batteries with Super Caps designed for use in the ear bleeding car stereo market

    Scale up the panel size to power what you need.

    You may have to have a push button switch, to charge up the cap directly from the sun every morning, so the charge controller will "wake up" and start working.

    My Solar Monolith:

    attachment.php?attachmentid=384&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1234752636

    attachment.php?attachmentid=385&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1234752653

    Update pictures/information here.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • Amishdude
    Amishdude Solar Expert Posts: 29 ✭
    #22
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?
    mike90045 wrote: »
    Here's what I did, and you can replace the batteries with Super Caps designed for use in the ear bleeding car stereo market

    Scale up the panel size to power what you need.

    You may have to have a push button switch, to charge up the cap directly from the sun every morning, so the charge controller will "wake up" and start working.

    My Solar Monolith:

    attachment.php?attachmentid=384&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1234752636

    attachment.php?attachmentid=385&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1234752653

    Update pictures/information here.
    Awesome, Mike! That's basically a scaled-down ;) version of what I had in mind. I was just hoping that i could "simplify" the process a bit by discarding any "unnecessary" components. It's the math that's killing me (I hated math in H.S.)

    I didn't realize how precise the component matching had to be, nor did I realize that I had to constantly be charging or discharging my batteries to keep the system operating optimally. Turned out to be a little more "babysitting" than I had hoped for.

    With the $$$ invested though, I'd like to get something back out of it. I'm in a tough spot though. I can let it continue to decay because of the mismatch of components, or I can dump another $1,500 into it and still not be sure it'll serve my purpose.
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  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    #23
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?

    Hi Amish..,

    Thanks for the additional info. You have a reasonable investment in the Surrettes. If there is any way that you could borrow a battery charger from a friend/neighbor, it should help your batteries a lot.

    Even an inexpensive car charger would be OK, if you kept your eye on the battery voltage under charge.

    And, am certain that you are still charging your batteries with what you now have. This is important. Do what you can to charge the batteries, and try to limit discharging them much at all, such that the average charge is high. This would be more like "Float service".

    The Icom will probably need about 2 Amps at 12 volts just for receive. And even at low power transmit, you may still need about 12 amps at the minimum output power setting. This is true of most 100 watt transceivers, unless designed for QRP (low power) operation.

    Good Luck, 73 Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #24
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?

    amishdude,
    your question of operating the pvs without a battery would not be a good idea as the output will then vary too much at times for consistent power to the loads due to time of day/season, weather, and if off being aimed at the sun. if one were to do that though it would involve regulating the pv output and you can think of what is needed in terms of power supplies as this is similar, but without the ac transformer, rectifying diodes, and filter as you would just have varying dc needing regulated. it will at times drop out as i said so a battery does smooth it out.

    as a ham i know you are familiar enough to know that you need to put back into the batteries what you have taken out along with losses, but you also need to be within the normal charging parameters to keep the battery properly charging within the 5-13% charge rate or what the manufacturer recommends with 10% often a good area to hit. in any case you don't want to drain your batteries below 50% dod and you don't want them going for long time periods without getting fully recharged. imo at least every 3 days or so, but more often is better to avoid sulfation.

    as to small aa, c, d, etc. chargers running off of 12v you can look at the maha chargers as a start.
    http://www.mahaenergy.com/store/Index.asp
    now there are other chargers out there like the one i have from hitech as it can charge 6 aa batteries from either a wall adapter or a 12v battery and the one i have i don't see on an initial search of the company, but is model ic-u6s1234-lcd.
    http://www.hitecrcd.com/products/chargers-setup-equipment/index.html
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #25
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?
    Amishdude wrote: »
    I do NOT have nor do I plan to have a backup genset. The only source of electricity will be this small system I've outlined and those items that can be powered with the small rechargeable batteries (flashlights, radios, etc.) Again, pretty much a glorified battery charger and a means to power my Icom IC-735.

    Reason for unplugging? Simplicity (I thought). :blush: We really don't use very much AC at all. We're about as close to "real" Amish as you can get without dressing the part.

    I am very ignorant of Amish ways, but I had the impression that solar electric technology would be just as much anathema to the Amish as is the grid. It's certainly not simpler or cheaper.
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  • Amishdude
    Amishdude Solar Expert Posts: 29 ✭
    #26
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?
    ggunn wrote: »
    I am very ignorant of Amish ways, but I had the impression that solar electric technology would be just as much anathema to the Amish as is the grid. It's certainly not simpler or cheaper.
    MOST Amish in central Ohio have solar at some level. Virtually ALL solar dealers around here are Amish-owned. Solar is BIG BUSINESS with the Amish. :-)
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  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    #27
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?

    The Amish in the Lancaster, PA area use quite a bit of modern technology for business uses, the restrictions usually come for home use.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
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  • abrockca
    abrockca Solar Expert Posts: 72 ✭✭✭✭
    #28
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?

    I know I'm coming in a bit late on this one... we have inverter, charge controllers, batteries, panels. When our batteries weren't charging due to having a bad one in the set (delivered dead) we still were fine during the day -as soon as the panels started getting sun into the system, we could power stuff. We had to run our generator all night for a few nights to have power then, but the panels were fine for daytime use. I sure was happy when our replacement showed up a week later...

    And lots of people just have solar panels, no batteries; of course they're grid-connected... but yes, panels can charge stuff without batteries.... which I think was the initial question.

    Anne Brock
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #29
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    Re: Using Your Off-grid Solar System When Your Batteries Fail?
    abrockca wrote: »
    I know I'm coming in a bit late on this one... we have inverter, charge controllers, batteries, panels. When our batteries weren't charging due to having a bad one in the set (delivered dead) we still were fine during the day -as soon as the panels started getting sun into the system, we could power stuff. We had to run our generator all night for a few nights to have power then, but the panels were fine for daytime use. I sure was happy when our replacement showed up a week later...

    And lots of people just have solar panels, no batteries; of course they're grid-connected... but yes, panels can charge stuff without batteries.... which I think was the initial question.

    Anne Brock

    Um, not exactly.
    "Charge stuff" isn't the same as "run stuff".
    Yes, you can charge batteries other than your system batteries. It's the same process, just different (and specific) regulation.
    No, you can not run an off-grid inverter directly from panels. But even dead or defective batteries will "smooth out" the Volts and Amps to within the inverter's operating range providing they are not too far gone. Most of the time battery failure results in a loss of Amp hour capacity, which doesn't have much effect on operating during the day if loads are not too severe.
    It's fun stuff, even if confusing at times.
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