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Thread: Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

  1. #1

    Default Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

    You have important differences between Edison Nickel-Iron Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe.
    Some obvious and some that are not so noticeable.
    All of them seem to be very important. One change is that the Edison Cell - Positive and Negative Plates
    were kept fastened together with a hardware system where the Negative and Positive Elements
    could be separated for 'secret Ni-Fe service' if need be.

    This is where your old timer accounts about cleaning the plates and if necessary even
    reconditioning the Positive 'Nickel Matrix Material' located in the pockets of the
    positive plates comes to play.
    One expert that helped me calls it 'A Lost Art' that he learned in his youth and then forgot over
    many decades of a long life. Nothing got Lost. Not a bit of it.
    Why it took just a hobbyist (myself) that got hooked on debunking all the mystery, myths, fish wives tales,
    jive and riddles about Ni-Fe - to re-discover what is really going on is beyond me. It wasn't quick and it
    wasn't exactly an easy puzzle but it was a lot of fun.

    Keep Iron Poisoning in your mind from here on out.
    Notice I didn't say maybe, please, perhaps, (or so) or whatever - but just laid it out there raw and cool.

    Today the Chinese Ni-Fe Plates are welded to a current carrying bar so if you contaminate the
    positive elements which is the Nickel Hydroxide (+ additives ?) (another post), your in big trouble
    and your just out.
    If it doesn't all rinse out with flushing (which I Highly doubt) then it's tough and you permanently lose capacity.

    When it gets bad enough you have throwaways on your hands with a 20% Nickel content.
    (See the Changhong Batteries MSDS). A major battery junk dealer on ebay
    pays around 15 cents per pound for old Ni-Fe batteries. He's paying around 43 cents for common Lead Acid
    batteries because though lead is cheaper it's in a much higher battery concentration.

    Another major difference was going from the full metal cases (jars) to much more fragile
    plastic cases. I feel that this may have been a huge mistake and may have a
    major influence on the 'touchy' Ni-Fe Electrolyte. (another post) If you read the catalog called
    'Changhong NF-S Series Nickel-Iron batteries for solar PV Application'

    http://www.changhongbatteries.com/Ni...13_m2.2.1.html

    they tell you to Look for around 3 years (or so) of total use at 80% DOD which is Much lower than what
    the Rolls 5000 Series batteries have in them.
    I believe the Rolls 5000 series looks like they have around 82% MORE Life Cycles at 80% DOD than
    the Changhong Ni-Fe cells do. Around 58% more Cycles at 100% DOD.

    The Changhong cells start to show an advantage over the Rolls once you get up to
    a MUCH More Reasonable DOD. At 50% DOD (50% Dead) the 2 battery technologies are fairly even.

    There are situations where a person may need to 'buy a good 5 to 7 years with an undersized, overworked,
    battery bank. In that case it's best to call Northern Arizona Wind & Sun.
    Ni-Fe is for when you really have it ALL together, have plenty95 of cash and Really know Exactly what
    to expect. Or at least hope that you do.
    Plus we start buying the Ni-Fe cells directly from China someday unless a Reliable, honest player wants to
    step up to the plate after

    'The Ni-Fe Theory of Battery-tivity' has been revealed.

    http://www.solar-electric.com/batteries.html

    The Chinese Ni-Fe Cells Shine at 20% DOD with the life Cycle Chart jumping up
    to over 23 years of good use.

    You have an American Changhong reseller, Brandon Williams at Iron Edison Batteries advertising
    that you can run the new Ni-Fe Batteries into the ground at 85% DOD
    (85% Dead) on a daily basis.

    http://us4.campaign-archive2.com/?u=...&id=3b37379f9d

    This will Destroy the expensive Ni-Fe Cells much Sooner rather than later. When you see a
    Changhong Operators Manual (which the resellers have always withheld from you) (another post)
    it gets explained to you that the Life Cycles stated are WITH Expensive Electrolyte changes included.
    Changhong and the Electric Indian does Not need to operate a Lying dreamland.
    They have a Lot of different products in over 100 Countries. Lot's of different battery chemistries as well.

    So changing the Electrolyte at 7-10 years is a real joke if you even slightly abused the new Ni-Fe Cells.
    The batteries were totally shot before that - even at 60% DOD each day.
    Let along running them 85% dead every day like somebodies fool. Only because much of the manufacturer's
    data had been kept from you or what was available went unnoticed.

    A NEW Look at old Charging routine's may be needed for Longer electrolyte life and less problems in general.

    Now more than ever the name of the game is to avoid Positive Element Contamination from The Very
    Beginning. It's NOT just Carbonates that you have to worry about.

    According to certified research notes from Thomas A. Edison the Ni-Fe Cells (in time) are fully capable of
    Self Destruction - all by themselves. Iron Poisoning of the Positive Electrodes. (another post)

    The Carbonates and OTHER Contaminates is nothing but window dressing to the badboys in comparison.
    (Lord willing, to be continued.)

    Bill Blake

  2. #2

    Default Re: Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

    Ni-Fe is such a long, drawn out, intense (and for some people very interesting) subject that it's easy for me
    (or others) to over simplify a point or two. Let's face it the 'Compare Nickel-Iron Batteries' post was plenty
    long enough as it was.

    Anyway there are a number of methods to bring the Ni-Fe Cells and / or the Ni-Fe Electrolyte Back from the Dead.
    Taking the cells apart
    and separating the positive elements from the negative elements was without a doubt the most effective method.

    However that was not the only sweet method. The devils.

    The first Edison Ni-Fe Cell Reconditioning method may be applicable to Today's Changhong Ni-Fe Cells or it may not.

    Either Changhong needs to step up to the plate, since they see what I say (for free) or someone that milks a buck off the
    Ni-Fe Cells needs to get off a few dollars for testing to commence.

    My job as an old hobbyist was to try to reverse the Ni-Fe Lies and the Ni-Fe nonsense. 'Drop the Dime'.

    Not do it all.

    We heard a lot from the various Ni-Fe sales gang HERE in the past. I have notified them that I'm exposing what upsets me.
    As usual my invitation for the Ni-Fe Poster's that milk good dollars out of the Ni-Fe game to step forth and
    'speak into the mike' still stands mightily.

    Today's Thoughts: From another topic but very applicable.

    Inadequate data to compare Ni-Fe Cells to other battery technologies.

    Mr. Edison knew about a number of Ni-Fe electrolyte problems by 1904.
    They came up with both the first Electrolyte Filtering process
    and also the first (Bring the Ni-Fe Cells back from the Dead) Elements Clean-up Reconditioning method
    in 1904.

    More Filtration (Treatment) methods and more Ni-Fe Cell Reconditioning methods came along in future
    years just before World War One for the US Navy Submarines and then in the early 1920's.

    The entire Ni-Fe subject seems to have been subject to some kind of a selfish, twisted, weird
    twilight zone where for no good reason that I can figure
    all these facts (and many more) became lost knowledge just waiting
    on the right old man to take the subject on as a mysterious hobby and a giant puzzle to stomp.

    The Edison Nickel Iron Batteries as well as the Changhong Ni-Fe Batteries that
    Beutilityfree and Iron Edison sell were without a doubt subjected to endless
    Lies, myths, tales, planted stories, etc.

    Never any worse than this misguided 'Run the Ni-Fe Cells 85% Dead' sales campaign of 2012
    that is going to hurt some people real bad if they buy it.
    Edison's Nickel Iron batteries never were just Nickel and Iron except for some experiments.

    Edison liked his Mercury and had great success with 20% Mercury in the Negative Elements.

    A Number of other Metals were Used and incorporated into the batteries including a lot of Cobalt
    which is why there are a number of historians that talk about Edison running all over the place
    looking for Cobalt mines.

    It goes on and on and on. The bottom line is sound bite posts and just a veneer of knowledge about the
    Ni-Fe Technology isn't going to cut it other than for a sales hustle. It took someone that was not milking
    the badboy for a buck to look at it.

    Until we find out what mixture of metals (or other additives) that Changhong and the Electric Indian
    is using in modern Ni-Fe Cells and whether their polypropylene separators
    and plastic cases can take the same heat (for 10 to 30 hours) that the Edison Cells could take -
    we have no idea whether the Cells can be Reconditioned or not.

    The 1904 reconditioning method does not require cutting the batteries open and brings them back to
    close to new capacity while the Elements are still inside the battery cases.
    Plus they can take an Occasional malfunction and Abuse without destruction.
    What about these other technologies?

    The Ni-Fe Charging and Discharging schemes also need to be looked at.
    Some problems may be unnecessary.

    Bill Blake

  3. #3

    Default Re: Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

    A few points about Nickel Rechargeable Cells made by Changhong Batteries in China.
    There are a couple of items also applicable to Lead Acid that grabbed me a little.
    This advice seems to have been formulated before the 'Solar Blivet Charging'
    Solar Sales campaign (supposedly) launched around Oct., 2010.

    Many are now trying to squeeze the 8 hours worth of charge into a 4 pound bag - including China.
    Big problems can develop. Ni-Fe battery dealers (Changhong resellers) suffer from a severe lack of education
    which is the biggest problem of all. Too much vital information is being held back from buyers.

    blivet definition: <snip>

    /bliv'*t/ [allegedly from a World War II military term meaning "ten pounds of manure in a five-pound bag"]

    1. An intractable problem.
    2. A crucial piece of hardware that can't be fixed or replaced if it breaks.
    3. A tool that has been hacked over by so many incompetent programmers that it has become an unmaintainable tissue of hacks.
    4. An out-of-control but unkillable development effort.
    5. An embarrassing bug that pops up during a customer demo.
    6. In the subjargon of computer security specialists, a denial-of-service attack performed by hogging limited resources that have no access controls (for example, shared spool space on a multi-user system).

    This term has other meanings in other technical cultures; among experimental physicists and hardware engineers of various kinds it seems to mean any random object of unknown purpose (similar to hackish use of frob). It has also been used to describe an amusing trick-the-eye drawing resembling a three-pronged fork that appears to depict a three-dimensional object until one realises that the
    parts fit together in an impossible way.

    http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=...t%20definition

    Tech. Support:

    The following are the most frequently asked questions. However, if you have a question that does not appear on this list,
    please contact us.

    1. What is battery conversion efficiency, Equalizing charge and full charge

    Conversion efficiency refers to the ration between continuous and stable power in the actual the power supply and nominal power .

    Equalizing charge is a continuous recharging to ensure that each single cell is fully charged.

    Full charge refers that all the available active substances in the battery change to the state of full charge.

    2. What is charging efficiency and discharge efficiency?

    Charging efficiency is ration that released power in the condition of discharge versus the power restored the initial charging state. Charging efficiency is affected by charging rate and environment temperature. During the charging, charging current must be within a certain range, the current too small or too large ,charging efficiency is low. Since the batteries exist self-discharge, batteries canít be charged fully, and battery closer saturation, charging efficiency is lower.

    Discharge efficiency is ration that released actual power in the certain condition of discharge to final voltage versus nominal capacity . Discharge efficiency is affected mainly by the discharge rate, environmental temperature, the resistance. Normally, higher discharge rate, the lower discharge efficiency. Temperature is lower, the discharge efficiency is lower.

    3. The reason why battery energy conversion process causes of the loss, how much is scale of all aspects of the energy loss?

    Internal resistance of the battery (including metal resistance, solution resistance, separator resistance), gas generation during electrolysis of water can cause loss of power.

    The gases are generated during overcharging and over-discharging. When the battery is overcharged, water can be decomposed, battery anode generates oxygen , negative generates hydrogen .If the batteries are overcharged 1Ah, generally, the gas of 4.1 cm3 will be generated., the opposite situation during over-discharge.

    The battery commonly uses the method of excess capacity of battery negative to prevent excess hydrogen. overcharge or over-discharge will damage the battery life, so in use process, avoid overcharge and over-discharge.

    4. What current value of Equalizing charge? And what value of environmental temperature? If battery charging conditions canít be guaranteed , what effect may cause to the battery?


    Equalizing charge is a continuous recharging to ensure that each single cell is fully charged,. The current generally is about 0.2 ItA , the environmental temperature should be about 20 ?. If charging conditions canít be guaranteed,
    the battery charging state will be affected, such as:

    if the charging current is higher, electrolysis of water is more vigorous, the battery canít be charged fully.

    Environmental temperature is exorbitant, the electrolyte is easy to be volatilized , it causes "dry" battery, and damages the battery life.

    5. What method is for full charge? What conditions to meet (voltage, current, time, temperature)?

    Commonly constant current charge and constant voltage charge are used for full charge at 20? ??

    ?1?Constant current charge : charge the battery at current of 0.2 ItA for 8 hours.

    ?2?If the battery is not used, the battery capacity should be supplemented with low current of 0.1 ItA -0.05 ItA for long time.

    ?3?According to the use condition of the battery, rated voltage can be different:

    a) if the battery is for standby, and occasional discharge? two sections can be adopted to charge the battery
    (first stage: 145-1.70 V/single cell,
    the second stage: 1.40 V/single cell)
    or one section can be adopted to charge the battery(143-1.50 V/single cell) ,

    b) If the battery is used frequently, the battery is charged at the voltage of 1.5-1.60 V/single cell.

    6. Why does the battery make full charge?

    The purpose of full charge is to let all the available active substances be fully utilized, and ensure the capacity of the battery.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    There are a couple of real Pearls mixed in there if you read it a couple of times and allow for the language difference.
    They build quite a number of different types of batteries and are part of a multi-billion dollar operation.
    Most of the time I feel that they try to be straight but they seem to allow problems with sub-standard sales distribution
    in North America. The market may not have given them a lot of quality choices - so far.

    Bill Blake

  4. #4
    Join Date
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    pittsburgh, pa
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    Default Re: Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

    again, lots of good info from you bill.
    NIEL

  5. #5

    Default Re: Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

    Quote Originally Posted by BillBlake View Post

    The 1904 reconditioning method does not require cutting the batteries open and brings them back to
    close to new capacity while the Elements are still inside the battery cases.


    Bill Blake
    Hi Bill, I hope you are still patrolling this board.

    I am working no bringing back a string of C-6 Edison cells, manufactured in the early 50's.

    Could you provide more detail on the "1904 reconditioned method"?


    Thanks

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    pittsburgh, pa
    Posts
    10,079

    Default Re: Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

    bill has not been by since dec 26, 2012. if you are interested i can contact him via his last reported email address that you are wanting to hear from him.
    NIEL

  7. #7

    Default Re: Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

    Quote Originally Posted by niel View Post
    bill has not been by since dec 26, 2012. if you are interested i can contact him via his last reported email address that you are wanting to hear from him.
    Thank you very much, I would really appreciate that!


    Thanks again.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

    Hi NIFE user, I also have a some C-6 Edison cells. The method(s) for reconditioning Edison cells can be found in Edison's own patents. Don't ask someone that does not actuality own any Edison cells or someone that does not post any real literature on Edison cells. I have been all over the web for the last couple of years studying up on these batteries and have found very little published data. I do have a Edison battery manual that does have all of specs on your C-6 cells. I have not been able to find this manual on the web but was able to purchase an original manual from ebay. Feel good about your self now that you own some Edison cells, you know more than 99% percent of these people in these forums. There is just to much BS in these forums to carry out any good discussion. No disrespect to any users here. Just my two cents, feel free to contact me.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

    Welcome to the forum Randall.

    Quote Originally Posted by Randall View Post
    Feel good about your self now that you own some Edison cells, you know more than 99% percent of these people in these forums. There is just to much BS in these forums to carry out any good discussion. No disrespect to any users here. Just my two cents, feel free to contact me.
    We're going to choose to believe you mean "know more than most people on the various forums about NiFe batteries" rather than knowledge in general or on this specific forum. Otherwise despite the disclaimer in your post it would be disrespectful of users.
    Four 175 Watt panels, OB MX60, 232 Amp hrs, OB 3524, Honda eu2000.

    Ohm's Law: Amps = Volts / Ohms
    Power Formula: Watts = Volts * Amps

  10. #10

    Default Re: Compare Nickel-Iron Edison Batteries and Chinese Ni-Fe Cells

    Sorry I miss spoke, your assumption is correct. My intent was meant to say "NIFEinME" knows more about Edison cells and not about Chinese cells or on any other topic. But I'll go one step further and change my statement of "know" or knowledge to experience. Also would like to add that this is a great forum and have been visiting for here for some time. It's just the topic on NIFE batteries that I was referring to the BS. I joined this forum with the intent to make contact with others that are using and reconditioning Edison cells like my self.
    Last edited by Randall; February 10th, 2013 at 9:48 PST.

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