solar help and ?s

Okay i am very new.
How much power can i get with 1352 sqr ft. or 2288 square feet of solar panels?
Will i be able to run 5 pc, 5 tv's , fridge ,dishwasher,laundry machines,stove, microwaves and basicly high energy usage? total off grid with that amount of square footage of solar panels?
if not what would be sufficient or how much more square footage of panels be needed to keep enough energy available?
Also what all supplies would i need type of best storage batteries,best solar panels uh um and things of that nature.

Thanks for your help.

Comments

  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: solar help and ?s

    IF,, this is a serious question,,,

    Do a bit of reading, and a bit of research. Solar panels are not generally measured by the square foot.

    If you want to go off grid, and bring along your wasteful energy habits with you, you are going to spend TONS of money. Off grid costs on average ~twice what grid tie does, and opperates 1/2 as efficiently.

    Add up your total expected loads in Kilowatt/hours/day. Estimate the average hours of "real" sunshine you get in a day. (~4hours typ) Figure in how many days of no sun you can live with without starting a generator,,, etc, etc, etc.

    Just making a WAG at your proposed loads, I would think you would need a system somewhere in the 4kw range,,, something in the off grid might cost $40-60,000 depending.

    FYI, Of gridding is WAY more expensive than just running a generator! If you are looking for emergency power, a generator is the only way to go! If you have access to the grid, grid tie solar is WAY cheaper.

    Having said all of this,,conservation is your cheapest RE $$. For every dollar spent on conservation, will save ~$10 in PV costs,,,double that for off grid.

    Good luck,

    Tony
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: solar help and ?s

    Just for sake of interest... My home is using BP 4175 panels (175 watts each). They are about 14.15 sqft per panel.

    1,352 sqft of roof / 14.15 sqft per panel = 95 solar panels (racked with no space between panels)

    Or about 16,625 watts worth of solar panels

    95 panels * 85% (panel and inverter derating) = 14,000 watt rated system

    At $8 per PTC watt (for turnkey grid tied system) = $112,000 installed

    For an off-grid system, 50% more (at least) or ~$170,000 (of course, you can do your own labor, find sales and used goods, etc... and perhaps cut that price in 1/2 for an off-grid system).

    For a Grid Tied system--more difficult to find used equipment that has the correct NEC certifications--still need building permits and licensed electrician, etc...

    How much power would such a system generate... Using this website for Kansas City Mo, and defaults for everything (16.625 kW worth of solar panels), you will generate between 1,300 to 2,000 kWhrs per month.

    For an off-grid system change the derating factor to 0.52 (batteries and solar charge controllers), you will get something around 800 kWhrs to 1,300 kWhrs per month...

    Power in your area is around $0.07 per kWhr.

    GT power would run you (assuming a 25 year life) around:

    $112,000/(25 years * 21,819 kWhrs per year) = $0.21 per kWhr (add 10-20% for parts like inverter)

    Off-Grid power, again assuming a 25 year life (and very good batteries):

    $170,000 /25 years * 14,406 kWhrs per year) = $0.47 per kWhr

    Assuming you cannot use all of your energy efficently, and that batteries don't last 25 years for most people, your costs will probably be 2x or almost $1.00 per kWhr--Plus you need to add costs for a backup generator, fuel and its maintanence (a generator can easily cost you a $1 per kwhr in fuel costs if you are not very careful--or more, if fuel costs go up again).

    I did not allow for any state, local, or federal rebates and tax credits--which can be substantial in some states (25% or more). However, some states also charge property tax on solar installations and this will kill your return on investment.

    In the end, realistically, off-grid power will cost you more than 10x your current on-grid electric bill...

    There is a lot you can do to reduce power usage (for example, low power laptops vs old desk top systems, turn off printers / scanners / networks / disk drives not in use). Purchase EngeryStar appliances, change your life style (no AC, CFL lights, turn off unused equipment, etc.).

    The above has a whole bunch of assumptions--but it should be close enough to give you an idea about what you are asking for...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: solar help and ?s

    Thanks and yes i am serious.Total off grid power.
    the square foot of a solar panel i was interested in (REC Solar SCM-220 220 Watt Solar Panel they are 17.76 square feet a piece)and figured(1352square feet) 76 panels would fit and 68 would fit with plenty of room but the more watts the better i guess. maybe 10 kw or higher so i have more then enough as degradation and effectiveness get lower over time for power production.
    Now i need to figure out how much power that would provide me with total and how much stuff i can run off that amount and charge the back ups say for 8 days to 12 days more or less since i will be total off grid.
    102,000.00 looks to be the cost of the panels alone themselves of course the batteries and all the other things i would need would be of added cost.

    Thanks for the response icarus and to all those who step in to help me with this issue.

    Bill thanks for the link also and that gave me some perspective and pricing a real insight into maybe i would have to double the or do 2288 square footage of panels for sufficient energy to power and then store power also.

    again many thanks now is the search for all the other stuff i guess like batteries and things i estimate my cost would be around 250,000 more or less i suppose for everything i would need for off grid living.

    many thanks
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: solar help and ?s

    FYI,

    A battery bank that is going to give you 8-12 days of autonomy with the loads you propose is going to be HUGE! I don't even want to guess at the cost.

    But consider this,,if you use rough numbers, a 16kw system, derated 50% for battery/inverter/charge controller efficiency, might yield 32kwh/day. If that is your basic need, give that 10 days of autonomy and you would need a battery (assuming 50% discharge after 10 days,, not recommended for a variety of reasons) somewhere around 13,333 amp hours @ 48 vdc! I don't know how much a battery like that would cost, but I don't want to have it sitting in my cellar!

    Most people like to figure 3 days of autonomy, because batteries don't like to kept discharged for more than a day or two.

    What is really going to kill you is the replacement cost of the batteries. A average life expectancy of a battery bank is 8-10 years when they are well taken care of, so ~1/3 to 1/2 of your system has to be replaced every 8-10 years.

    Good luck,

    Tony
  • Ecnerwal
    Ecnerwal Solar Expert Posts: 101 ✭✭
    Re: solar help and ?s

    You should probably plan a nice diesel generator into your system - get a good one, spend more for the critical (extra-quiet - hospital zone) muffler. It'll be chump change next to your other costs, and will deal with your power use when the sun fails to shine...most places (hunting/fishing camps, etc) with profligate power use find it more economical to simply run one 24/7 than to invest in hugely expensive solar power systems, or have a small to medium solar and battery arrangement that can be taken over by the generator as needed. If you've got $250,000 burning a hole in your pocket and want to put it all in PV, it's your money, but there might be a lot of more sensible things to do with it, even with the same end goal in mind.

    Stove and dryer make more sense as propane fueled devices than as all electric. If all electric they are going to end up being diesel fueled often enough.

    If you happen to have a large watersource with a lot of vertical drop available, your all-electric scheme could make sense - just not with PV - a biggish hydro source makes a lot of power, and tends to make power 24/7/365 if the water is there year round.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: solar help and ?s

    The better way is to determine what power you will need...

    The difference between the "Name Plate Rating" (volts and amps) and the actual amount of "power" the device uses can be huge...

    For example, a 100 watt light "uses" 100 watts of power... But the difference between running the light 1 hour vs 24 hours is huge:

    100w * 1hr = 100 Watt*Hours or 0.1 kWhrs (~$0.01 of electricity)
    100w * 24hr = 2,400 Watt*Hours or 2.4 kWhr (~$0.24 of electricity)

    The above is based on $0.10 per kwhr--for Off-Grid, that would be at $1.00 per kWhr or $0.10 for 1 hour or $2.40 for 24 hours of 100 watt usage.

    A 20 cuft energystar fridge may use 1-2kWhrs per day (100 watts on 10-20 hours per day). A well pump may take 2kW (1.5 HP)--a huge amount of peak power for a solar system, but only run 10 minutes per day (or use less power than that 100 watt light bulb 4 hours per day):

    2kW * 10min/60 min per hour = 0.333 kWhrs per day

    Obviously, we do not know your needs... But, it is possible to do "real" work with an off-grid solar system.

    For smaller loads, a Kill-A-Watt meter is real handy... You plug your fridge/computer/etc. in for 1 day to 1 week, and read right from the meter how many watt*hours each device uses per day.

    For larger equipment, a real "kWhr" meter would be required (or simply read your own home/business utilty meter every day at the same time) to see how much power you really use (and it may change by seasons).

    Look for posts from user name "Adas" out of Hawaii... He has built an off-grid system out of used forklift batteries and MSW inverters to run his metal fabrication business and office (arc welders, grinders, etc.). Here is is "sig line":
    Office System. 3940W * BP 40x70W * Sun 12x190blems * 2xFX80 * 2xMX60's * 4x625AH 24(36)v Batteries (Used Forklift Type)
    Warehouse System 4560w * Sun 24x190Wblems * 2xFX80's * 4x875AH 24v Batteries.(Used Forklift Type)

    Otherwise, you might do what some have done here... Size the panels for your "normal" needs and get a nice (or cheap) 5kW+ genset to run your shop--when the noise and fumes of a generator are less of an issue.

    This allows you to have a reasonable Solar System that is not over designed for your living--and still have power available when needed.

    I agree with Tony--sizing a system for 8+ days of "no sun" is not really practical... That would double (or more) the cost of your off-grid system (and probably get you into the $2.00 per kWhr and beyond power pricing).

    Normally 3 days of automany and no more than 50% discharge (6x your daily load) is pretty cost effective. If you want to go longer, you probably would want to go with AGM batteries (a nice battery, but much more expensive) and possibly some larger panels too (to properly charge the batteries).

    Lastly, as much as we like to help--a system this large may need some real engineering behind it. We can direct you towards the basics--but this size of system is beyond what should (and safely) can be done over the Internet.

    A local installer/supplier might be able to give you some better ideas of how to approach the issues of this large of system.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: solar help and ?s

    And to add to what Encerwal said... Figure out how to use alternate fuels for cooking, drier, hot water, heating, etc...

    Solar PV electric off-grid is about the most expensive way to generate heat.

    Look at solar hot water (for domestic hot water, space heating) and even Solar Ovens (insulated box with glass cover) for "slow cooking".

    Otherwise, almost any other fuel is going to be a better bang for the buck...

    By the way, if you have wood available (or other ag-waste)--Google "Gasification" for wood furnaces and stoves (depending on what you need). Seems to be very efficient and relatively clean (vs other methods) to obtain heat (such as a low pressure hot water boiler) for use around the home and business.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • morpho
    morpho Solar Expert Posts: 176 ✭✭✭
    Re: solar help and ?s

    1targeted1,

    Please don't shoot me when I show up at your house/powerplant and beg some power so I can finish watching a DVD on my laptop.
    11.5 kw array  -  3 - midnite solar classic 200's   -  Magnum MS-PAE Inverter  -  Magnum ME-RC50 remote  -  ME-BMK batt-monitor  -  8 DEKA Solar GC15 230amp hour (48v) - Yamaha ef3000ise - 1 confused look on face
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: solar help and ?s

    I will go back to my two (in)famous (favorite) quotes. Do your homework to avoid the "Ready, Fire, Aim" syndrome that too many people fall into.

    The second is "Do the Math!" Add up the loads, calculate in the efficiencies, and the costs.

    If you really have the money to spend, and the desire to do so,,then more power (no pun) to you. IMHO your money would be way better spent on some fundamental efficiencies.

    The order of priorities in the grid tie world has always been conservation first, followed by some more conservation and filled in with a bit more conservation. After that, Solar water heat, followed by solar space heat and only then possible PV solar. If you have no grid available then the first three still apply but the order of the following three might be mixed up if needed.

    As Ecnerwal has noted, no matter what happens, you are going to need a good generator regardless. Once again, you have to "do the math" in order to size this. Given the size of the panel array that you are suggesting, this is going to be a substantial generator. Not a cheap tool in it's own right.

    Good luck,

    Tony
  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    Re: solar help and ?s

    For a system that large, its NOT a do-it-yourself project and since the numbers don't scare you away, then find a renewable installer in your area to plan-design-install a system that meets your needs

    I wouldn't tackle a project this large and I design these products for a living ..
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: solar help and ?s

    Change your computers to widescreen laptops, (250W vs 80W) and get USB DTV Tuner modules for them. Add some solar water heaters for the showers and laundry.
    Forget an electric stove. A microwave and induction hotplate are pretty efficient, use propane for cooking. Look for stove that does not draw 300W keeping a glow bar hot while the oven is on.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,