First post need help picking solar panals

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System
System Posts: 2,511 admin
in Solar Beginners Corner #1
I just found this forum its great.
I live in alaska and have a cabin on a lake about 60 miles from any road. I haft to fly or take a boat to get there. Its off grid.. I am looking to buy about 1000 watts worth of solar panals. I see alot of great deals out there but dont have a clue if there lagit or not like-lavie solar (texas or china) anyway I have batterys and a inverter 12 volt and Two honda 2000's . I dont need alot of electric TV dvd player 12volt pump for water and lights most led.. I would like to buy solar panals panals at a fair price. If i can get them to Seattle I can get them up here next to nothing we get creats of glass every week and i could have them put in... Any good deals out there....
I also would like to know the best way to go as far as what size panals to buy.
Thanks Lance
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,448 admin
    #2
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    Re: First post need help picking solar panals

    Yea--you are going to have to look at cost delivered to your door--Ouch!

    In general, solar panels over 100 watts tend to be less expensive (on a $$$ per watt basis) vs smaller solar panels...

    However large solar panels may be difficult and expensive to ship.

    Also, ~175 watt solar panels are about the maximum one person can move around without help onto a roof. The large >> 200 watt panels probably need two people to safely move them around/install them.

    Prices are all over the place right now--and you will have to look around.

    A lot of production is coming from China now--and I have no idea whose product is going to last 25-40 years.

    I would suggest sticking with Mono or Poly Crystalline solar panels and stay away from thin film...

    Crystalline panels are generally smaller for the same power rating (easier/cheaper to ship) and many thin film panels will not last the 25+ years you probably would like.

    Crystalline panels are made from 1/8" thick tempered glass and are very easy to shatter (there goes $$$ down the drain). So shipping costs/insurance/packaging/etc. are going to be critical for you.

    Our host (Northern Arizona Wind & Sun) has a good selection of panels and you can use those as a decision point for good deals or not...

    Otherwise, I am not in the solar business (or connected to NAWS other than as a volunteer moderator here)--So I cannot really help you much more.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #3
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    Re: First post need help picking solar panals

    Thanks for the reply
    Northern arazona wind and sun must be real busy I left a message to have them call me still waiting ( Lance 907 355-6205) Im looking at the kyocera KD 135gx-Lpu 135 watt 12 volt solar panals.
    Dose anyone know anything about them do you think that would be a good choice.
    If i get 8 that would be 1080 watts. Then i need to get a good charge controller any recomendations would be good.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,448 admin
    #4
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    Re: First post need help picking solar panals

    None of us here work for/with NAWS (other than our Admin Windsun)--So we have no insight/information as to what is happening at their business.

    Regarding the panels, Kyocera has a good reputation (stood by a large warranty issue with with their panels almost 10 years ago) and the 135 watt panels are a nice physical size for a single person to manage.

    Otherwise, there are other Mfg. out there with good panels--Always check the $$$/Watt pricing and compare the panels (size, wattage, voltage, cost of shipping/transportation, etc.) against your needs.

    What size battery bank (Amp*Hours and Voltage) are you planning on charging? Generally, the best $$$/Watt/Amp pricing for charge controllers is if you choose a 24 or 48 volt battery bank (charger output is based on Amps--If you do 2x or 4x the battery bank voltage, then a single charge controller can do 2x or 4x the solar array wattage).

    On the other hand (why yes, I do have 4 hands--why do you ask?:roll:) what will be your loads--12 volts is very handy for small systems with direct DC loads and MorningStar has a very nice 12 volt 300 watts TSW inverter (very low standby power plus a DC inhibit switch input).

    Roughly, 1,200 watts or below, 12 volt system is fine... 2,400 watts or below, 24 volt systems are good... Over 2,400 watts of power--look seriously at a 48 volt battery bank... Otherwise you are looking at designing a 200-400+ amp battery bus/inverter wiring system. Not cheap or easy to do (plus fuses, breakers, switches, etc.).

    MorningStar makes some very nice MPPT and PWM controllers, as does Xantrex (now Schneider), and lots of people like Outback. Also, Rogue makes a nice little 30 amp MPPT 12/24 volt controller too.

    In the end--spend money/time on conservation (minimizing your electrical loads), then measure/understand your peak watts and Watt*Hours per day requirements--Then design the system--and lastly, order the hardware.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • KeithWHare
    KeithWHare Solar Expert Posts: 140 ✭✭✭
    #5
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    Re: First post need help picking solar panals
    Alaska Lance wrote: »
    Thanks for the reply
    Northern arazona wind and sun must be real busy I left a message to have them call me still waiting ( Lance 907 355-6205) Im looking at the kyocera KD 135gx-Lpu 135 watt 12 volt solar panals.
    Dose anyone know anything about them do you think that would be a good choice.
    If i get 8 that would be 1080 watts. Then i need to get a good charge controller any recomendations would be good.

    I installed 12 Kyocera KC130TMPV 12 volt, 7.39 amp modules in Haiti last April, and was getting pretty close to the rated power out of them -- the sun was directly overhead. In Alaska, you are unlikely to ever get the rated power, so you need to factor that into your calculations.

    The web site:

    http://www.alaskasun.org/

    might give you some additional useful information.

    Keith
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #6
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    Re: First post need help picking solar panals
    KeithWHare wrote: »
    In Alaska, you are unlikely to ever get the rated power, so you need to factor that into your calculations.

    Au contraire! :D

    Do not think that just because someone lives above the 49th parallel that they exist in total darkness year-round! :p

    In fact, in Alaska you might find yourself with super-conducting panels in Winter - risking too high an input Voltage to the charge controller.

    Generally speaking, the sun is just as bright up here (when it shines) as anywhere else, and the temps are usually more moderate. If you are also at a higher elevation you will get an additional boost. :D

    But first, you really must determine your load potential and design the system from that. Otherwise you end up with too much or too little of one thing or another, and in the end you will spend more money than you need to.

    Kyocera's are excellent panels. Never heard a word against them. They are also reasonably priced (except in BC - nothing is here), and as Bill said manageable by one person.

    But you should consider the effect the local climate has on output, no matter where you are!
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,448 admin
    #7
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    Re: First post need help picking solar panals

    One other point to consider--using something like PV Watts and see what a tracking array could buy for you (one or two axis)... The extended charging times (and energy) may be very helpful for you guys.

    For example, 1 kW of panels, 0.52 derating for Bettles Alaska, fixed array:
    "Station Identification"
    "City:","Bettles"
    "State:","Alaska"
    "Lat (deg N):", 66.92
    "Long (deg W):", 151.52
    "Elev (m): ", 205
    "PV System Specifications"
    "DC Rating:"," 1.0 kW"
    "DC to AC Derate Factor:"," 0.520"
    "AC Rating:"," 0.5 kW"
    "Array Type: Fixed Tilt"
    "Array Tilt:"," 66.9"
    "Array Azimuth:","180.0"

    "Energy Specifications"
    "Cost of Electricity:","12.4 cents/kWh"

    "Results"
    "Month", "Solar Radiation (kWh/m^2/day)", "AC Energy (kWh)", "Energy Value ($)"
    1, 0.65, 11, 1.36
    2, 2.28, 37, 4.59
    3, 4.46, 75, 9.30
    4, 6.19, 98, 12.15
    5, 5.86, 87, 10.79
    6, 5.25, 70, 8.68
    7, 4.71, 64, 7.94
    8, 4.32, 62, 7.69
    9, 2.97, 42, 5.21
    10, 1.76, 26, 3.22
    11, 0.70, 10, 1.24
    12, 0.15, 3, 0.37
    "Year", 3.28, 584, 72.42

    And a two axis tracking array:
    "Station Identification"
    "City:","Bettles"
    "State:","Alaska"
    "Lat (deg N):", 66.92
    "Long (deg W):", 151.52
    "Elev (m): ", 205
    "PV System Specifications"
    "DC Rating:"," 1.0 kW"
    "DC to AC Derate Factor:"," 0.520"
    "AC Rating:"," 0.5 kW"
    "Array Type: 2-Axis Tracking"
    "Array Tilt:","N/A"
    "Array Azimuth:","N/A"

    "Energy Specifications"
    "Cost of Electricity:","12.4 cents/kWh"

    "Results"
    "Month", "Solar Radiation (kWh/m^2/day)", "AC Energy (kWh)", "Energy Value ($)"
    1, 0.71, 12, 1.49
    2, 2.60, 42, 5.21
    3, 5.67, 98, 12.15
    4, 8.76, 143, 17.73
    5, 10.04, 159, 19.72
    6, 8.91, 129, 16.00
    7, 8.14, 120, 14.88
    8, 6.42, 97, 12.03
    9, 3.79, 56, 6.94
    10, 2.01, 31, 3.84
    11, 0.77, 12, 1.49
    12, 0.16, 3, 0.37
    "Year", 4.84, 901, 111.72

    You can get a whole lot more power in the summer with tracking...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #8
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    Re: First post need help picking solar panals

    A couple things to remember;

    More smaller panels will require more wires, and perhaps a larger combiner box. Minimun of $25 per panel... Of course strings of panels lessen this cost.

    I'd read up on wire loss and the advantages of running higher voltage to an MPPT charge controller, then output to your 12 volt battery bank, regaurdless I would buy 12 volt (nominal) panels in pairs in case you choose to go to a 24 volt system later.

    Remember there is a 30% tax credit for solar, I think this has been extended to 2nd homes now, worth checking into.

    All that said I'm sending a PM about the best 'deal' I've seen lately.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #9
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    Re: First post need help picking solar panals

    Photowhit thanks for the pm
    This is kinda what i am thinking. I have this cabin thats off grid and in a few years i plan to live there full time. If i start on a system now by the time i am ready to move out there i will have it the way i want it. I love it there now but i just haft to run the generator to charge the batterys.
    As of now i have 4 L16-6volt batterys and a 800 watt inverter 99 % of the time i am only useing 500 watts and less for power. I do have satalite tv a must out there lol
    I would like to buy 1000 watts worth of solar panals and a charge controller just to see how it dose. Later i plan on a new inverter-charger and a new set of batterys.
    I am very new to the solar thing but i know its the way to go.
    I have southern exposer In summer i know it would work fine i have 18 hours of sunlight a day. winter is the problem For about 2 months 5 hrs a day max.
    My goal is to just haft to run the generator A couple days a week.
    When i built this place i had this in mind i have a propaine stove, freezer, hot water demand, and frig..
    Give me your thoughts do i need more panals. Another ?? If you have 1000 watts of panals on a gloomy day what will i have mabe half????
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  • jeffkruse
    jeffkruse Solar Expert Posts: 205 ✭✭✭
    #10
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    Re: First post need help picking solar panals

    On normal gloomy days I see 20% of nameplate. On really gloomy days I'll see 5% of nameplate. On clear cool (70's) days I'll see 105% of namplate.
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,753 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #11
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    Re: First post need help picking solar panals

    You can never have too many solar panels offgrid! It is really a question of how many of the bad solar days you want to complete a solar charge cycle and your ability to reduce your demand on those days.

    I use to know a Lance in Alaska, any chance you were a sailor?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #12
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    Re: First post need help picking solar panals

    I'm a very minimal user of electric, except in the summer to run an A/C.

    I rarely worried over the winter, even in strings of 10 days of heavy overcast, to run my small TV, a CFL light, laptop, and MP3 Player with my then tiny 220 watt system and a couple golf cart batteries, I might get close to drawing them down to 20-30% of capacity, but I had no constant loads and after a week or so of overcast I might shut some things down and just listen to the MP3 player for a while at night.

    After adding a small fridge and switching to a 24 volt (4 Golf Cart) system, and 1000 watt array. I find the constant load, can find long overcast periods in the winter actually harder to deal with. I understand a MPPT controller also helps during these gray days, but I don't know if it's just from the combined effecencies of higher voltage reducing the wire loss or why.

    I would expect closer to the 5% on the heavy overcast days we have here, in Missouri, 20% on bright over cast days whe you cast an undefined shadow.

    You will have a couple challanges due to the sun being low in the sky, a tracker might well be the ticket during summer months. If you plan on over wintering, I would be sure to have some direct sunlight on your panels, this may be a challenge.

    I want to emphasize that direct sunlight is the key to solar, having 18+ hours of sun is nice but the sun moves 270 degrees around the array and hence is behind it a good deal, on top of that it's low on the horizon so it travels through more atmosphere as will as trees, hills, etc. Plan of the most/all of your energy coming when the sun is within 60 degrees of perpendicular to your panels.

    BTW - they've done another listing and included a phone #, FWIW.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #13
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    Re: First post need help picking solar panals

    Hi Lance, if you're in the Anchorage area go visit Renewable Energy Systems at 145 West Dimond (north side of Dimond, across from Costco) and see if they might already have what you need, without you having to re-invent the wheel.

    http://www.renewableenergysys.com/

    The 'Net Metering' concept (which allows private users to sell their excess energy back to the power companies) became effective just this summer, here in Alaska, and Renewable Energy Systems claims to be the first company to do so, with solar panels mounted on their Dimond store location.

    --Not that net metering will apply to you out in the sticks, but just sayin' that these guys claim to be carrying wind and solar products tailor-made for Alaska.

    Where is your cabin located, roughly? Do you have any available wind? If you're close to a river or lake have you considered extracting free geothermal heat right out of the water?
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #14
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    Re: First post need help picking solar panals

    My cabin is located by lake creek which is about 70 miles northwest of anchorage.
    I have been to the energy system place on dimond but I think i can get a better deal from the lower 48 Price for one 125 watt solar panal is about 700 bucks here.
    I can get a crate shipped from seattle for 200 and a crate is 3 ft wide and 6 ft long and holds about 350 lbs.
    Dose anyone have a tracker how much are they I can build my own frame.
    This year i think i can get 1200 watts woth of panals and then 1200 more next year.
    Norhern wind still hasnt called me back. Lance 907 355- 6205.
    never been a sailor.
    I am also going to get more battery's
    The other thing i would like to know is if going to a 24 volt system would be better
    for me i dont realy know what the pro's and con's are. I do know that if i went to a 24 volt system i coud buy bugger solar panals.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #15
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    Re: First post need help picking solar panals

    The question of what system Voltage to use is a matter of how many Watts you need to deliver (not Watt hours). If the total load will be below 2kW max, you can use a 12 Volt system. If it is above that you should consider a 24 Volt or even 48 Volt (if it is more than 4kW, say).

    The difference is in the amount of current drawn from the batteries to produce the Wattage. Higher Voltage = lower Amperage for the same Wattage. Higher Amps needs larger wires and produces more heat in the system.

    Yet another reason why knowing your loads is essential to planning an off-grid system.
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