I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)

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retrodog
retrodog Solar Expert Posts: 53 ✭✭
in Solar Beginners Corner #1
So tell me if I got screwed or not. It's a pair of 100W Sunwize panels and a Sunsaver charger controller for $559.

http://www.solarblvd.com/p2396/Two-Sunwize-100-Watt-12-Volt-Plus-Morningstar-SS-MPPT-15L-Free!/product_info.html

I got this just to experiment with and as some backup power after hurricanes. The charger will take up to two more panels being hooked up for a total of 400 Watts.

So are these guys reputable or am I going to get ripped off???
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #2
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)

    I don't know anything about the company--but it seems you got a good price.

    Regarding 400+ Watts on the MorningStar controller--it will output into a battery bank (approximately):
    • 15 amps * 14.5 volts = 218 watts max
    • 15 amps * 29 volts = 435 watts max
    You can put more panels on an MPPT type controller--and it will safely limit its output current to rated value... But, placing 400 watts on a 12 volt bank will limit the energy to ~220 watts maximum.

    The reasonable (cost wise) maximum to place on this controller (in my humble opinion) would be:
    • 15 amps * 14.5 volts / 0.77 derating = 283 watts
    For the most part, the average solar panel on an average (warm) day will output through a MPPT controller ~0.77 or so typically maximum output power.

    So, above 280 watts of solar panels on a 12 volt bank will tend to hit the controller's maximum output current of 15 amp...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • retrodog
    retrodog Solar Expert Posts: 53 ✭✭
    #3
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)

    Is the Sunsaver controller built by Morningstar?

    ETA: Well that was a dumb question. It's says it right on the linked page that I posted. Doh!!!
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #4
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)

    Wowie ! that does look like a nice price. Just a fuse and a AGM battery and someone would have a nice setup

    Mike
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • retrodog
    retrodog Solar Expert Posts: 53 ✭✭
    #5
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)
    mike90045 wrote: »
    Wowie ! that does look like a nice price. Just a fuse and a AGM battery and someone would have a nice setup

    Mike

    I've got some big AGM batteries that I picked up last year. They've been on a conditioner/charger off-n-on for that time. This will give me something to run them with.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #6
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)

    The Morning Star 15 amp MPPT controller (can charge either a 12 or 24 volt battery bank) is a very nice unit. Probably none better at that current rating.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • retrodog
    retrodog Solar Expert Posts: 53 ✭✭
    #7
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)

    Well I just checked my AGM batteries. Each of them are rated for 145 AH, at 10 hour discharge rate. So I guess they are reasonably safe to discharge at 14.5 Amps. This controller sounds like it will limit them at 15 Amps, which is good.

    I think I'll eventually (maybe soon) be getting two more of these panels to make a 400W system and then use the two batteries for a 24V source. I'll have to learn more about the new controller and what I can do with it before coming up with a final game plan.

    If the batteries are fully charged and the sun it hitting the panels, does this controller automatically divert power to the load so that it doesn't have to cycle the batteries?

    What's the energy efficiency of AGM batteries. What percentage will you get back out of them from what you put in while charging?
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #8
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)
    retrodog wrote: »

    If the batteries are fully charged and the sun it hitting the panels, does this controller automatically divert power to the load so that it doesn't have to cycle the batteries?

    What's the energy efficiency of AGM batteries. What percentage will you get back out of them from what you put in while charging?

    When batteries are full, the charge controller simply stops dumping amps into the batteries, and charging slows way down. If you turn on a load, that does draw from the solar power, till a cloud passes by, or you have more load than the solar can supply, and then the batteries add power as needed.


    AGM batteries are, generally, really efficient, around 95%, better than anything else except a capacitor.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #9
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)
    retrodog wrote: »
    Well I just checked my AGM batteries. Each of them are rated for 145 AH, at 10 hour discharge rate. So I guess they are reasonably safe to discharge at 14.5 Amps. This controller sounds like it will limit them at 15 Amps, which is good.
    The charger will limit charging current.

    There is a low voltage disconnect output on many chargers. These outputs are not really designed to output large currents (~8-20 amps or so, depending on controller) and placing heavy loads (like inverters) on an LVD output can damage the internal components of the charge controllers.

    Do not expect the LVD to limit discharge currents.

    On the other hand, your AGM batteries are, many times, capable of higher charge/discharge current vs standard flooded cell batteries. See if you can find the data sheet/manual for yours.
    If the batteries are fully charged and the sun it hitting the panels, does this controller automatically divert power to the load so that it doesn't have to cycle the batteries?

    For solar panels, it is perfectly OK for a solar charge controller to simply "open a switch" and stop taking energy from the solar panels. There will be no damage/danger.

    For some types of power sources (typically wind turbine and water turbines)--they require constant loading to prevent over-speed (these turbines can self destruct if there is no electrical load).

    There are "dump controllers" (many solar charge controllers have a "dump mode") where the charge controller "turns on" and powers a dump load (such as an electric heater) to take care of the excess energy.

    You could do this with solar panels too--but dump controllers tend to be "harder" on battery banks (batteries do not last as long because it is more difficult to properly maintain battery voltage with a diversion type controller).
    What's the energy efficiency of AGM batteries. What percentage will you get back out of them from what you put in while charging?
    The very rough rule of thumb for batteries is 80% overall efficiency for flooded cell and 90% for AGM (this is energy/watt*hour efficiency).

    Things that limit efficiency are equalization (pretty much a total loss of energy) and charging / operating a battery bank upwards 90% to near 100% charging. Lead Acid batteries tend to be more efficient at charging at lower states of charge...

    Also, age can really hit battery bank efficiency too (and self discharge). AGMs tend to have less self discharge over their life.

    The 80/90% tend towards worst case numbers--And some folks hear have reported 98% efficiency for AGMs.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • retrodog
    retrodog Solar Expert Posts: 53 ✭✭
    #10
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)

    Well I got the charging controller last Friday. The panels came separately and were supposed to arrive yesterday. The package made it all the way to my town and then...

    SERVICE DISRUPTION OCCURRED / RETURNED TO SHIPPER

    Apparently, one of the gorillas dropped it and damaged the package and/or the panels. Now I have to wait for it to get back to the shipper and then for them to inspect it to determine if they are going to send these panels to me again or have to send another set.
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  • retrodog
    retrodog Solar Expert Posts: 53 ✭✭
    #11
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)

    I just got a call from Solar Blvd. and they were trying to get a location on the panels from UPS. Now UPS is telling them that the panels have been re-re-directed to me. But they have no way to verify that. So now they are either heading to me, or heading back to them, or sitting on a shelf in a black hole. Yay!!!
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  • retrodog
    retrodog Solar Expert Posts: 53 ✭✭
    #12
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)

    The panels arrived yesterday and seem to be in good condition. Deon was very helpful to work with at Solar Blvd. I'll begin testing the panels this coming weekend. Thanks for all the inputs, guys and gals.
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  • Highland_Fling
    Highland_Fling Solar Expert Posts: 37 ✭
    #13
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)
    retrodog wrote: »
    The panels arrived yesterday and seem to be in good condition. Deon was very helpful to work with at Solar Blvd. I'll begin testing the panels this coming weekend. Thanks for all the inputs, guys and gals.

    Sounds like a real deal to me these panels are $288 each if you look at my post you will see i have the MS MPPT 15L controller and love it - i does marvellous things with two small panels AND i was thinking of getting these actual panels that are packaged with it at a cost of $576 just for the panels alone - from that supplier at that price i might do that and have two MS MPPT 215L controllers.

    Now will they ship to St Thomas in the US VI's at a sensible cost.

    regards

    David
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  • retrodog
    retrodog Solar Expert Posts: 53 ✭✭
    #14
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)
    Highland_Fling wrote: »
    Sounds like a real deal to me these panels are $288 each if you look at my post you will see i have the MS MPPT 15L controller and love it - i does marvellous things with two small panels AND i was thinking of getting these actual panels that are packaged with it at a cost of $576 just for the panels alone - from that supplier at that price i might do that and have two MS MPPT 215L controllers.

    Now will they ship to St Thomas in the US VI's at a sensible cost.

    regards

    David
    I think they are just $226 each for the panels at solar blvd.
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  • RWB
    RWB Solar Expert Posts: 168 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #15
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)

    The Sunsaver MPPT is a EXCELLENT Charge Controller and I actually just built 2 portable systems over the last 2 days that use these Charge Controllers. I have built probably 20 Systems using these Sunsaver MPPT Charge Controllers and have never had a problem with any of them.

    They are fully programmable and you can hook them up to a computer a get tons of data about the panels, battery, temp, ect... You can log and graph out that data also if you into that kind of thing.

    The TriStar MPPT units look to be very nice also, I just wish they had a 20-25A Sunsaver MPPT unit.

    You made a great choice by picking that charge controller, its one of the best at tracking the Maximum Power Point of the panels all day compared to how other units go about this.

    It will limit your charging to 200-210W/15A. You can oversize your panels as large as you want but your not going to get anymore than 200-210W out of them.

    The LVD works great and can be programmed to turn off and on at different set points. It also has a High Voltage Disconnect that can be turned on.

    If you pull over 15A from he Load Output it will cut the load and turn back on in 15 seconds, it will do this 3 times and the 3rd time it will shut the load output off and all the LED's will flash continuously until you cut power to the Sunsaver to rest the unit.

    I have 6 of these Sunsavers sitting on the shelf in the back room ready to be used in out future systems.
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  • cfcw
    cfcw Solar Expert Posts: 25 ✭
    #16
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)

    Anyone have personal experience with sunwize brand panels? Are they supposed to hold up OK?
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  • retrodog
    retrodog Solar Expert Posts: 53 ✭✭
    #17
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)
    RWB wrote: »
    ...

    It will limit your charging to 200-210W/15A. You can oversize your panels as large as you want but your not going to get anymore than 200-210W out of them.

    ...

    I don't quite understand this. I was thinking about getting two more panels for a total of 400Watts. It states that the controller will support it if it is set up with 24V battery instead of 12V.

    The panels are advertised as "12V Panel" on Solarblvd.com, but their operational voltage is about 23V. So two of them in series is 46V. I was planning on going with two in series, and in parallel with two more in series. Would that balance adequately or would I need something else to protect them (diodes, etc.)?

    I guess I could talk to the Morningstar guys about it, or maybe those at Solar Blvd.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #18
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)

    You are correct--if this is a 24 volt battery bank--then the charger panel rating can be 2x the 12 volt calculations.

    Regarding two panels in series... You have to look at the Voc (voltage open circuit) of the panels too.
    • 2x 28.5 volts =57 volts (at ~70F)
    And the MorningStar 15 amp MPPT controller is rated at 75 Volt input maximum... So you are fine there.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Highland_Fling
    Highland_Fling Solar Expert Posts: 37 ✭
    #19
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)
    BB. wrote: »
    You are correct--if this is a 24 volt battery bank--then the charger panel rating can be 2x the 12 volt calculations.

    Regarding two panels in series... You have to look at the Voc (voltage open circuit) of the panels too.
    • 2x 28.5 volts =57 volts (at ~70F)
    And the MorningStar 15 amp MPPT controller is rated at 75 Volt input maximum... So you are fine there.

    -Bill

    Is there a clever CHEAP way of charging at 24V with batteries in series and discharging at 12V with the batteries in parallel I know Lagoon do something clever with their Hybrid Catamarans 72V or 144V for driving the electric motors (cant remember which voltage now) and with a silly for a catamaran TWELVE BIG BIG HEAVY 12V 200 A/H battery bank with two more 140A/H for engine start and house use
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  • Kamala
    Kamala Solar Expert Posts: 452 ✭✭
    #20
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)
    Highland_Fling wrote: »
    Is there a clever CHEAP way of charging at 24V with batteries in series and discharging at 12V with the batteries in parallel...

    This has been discussed before:

    Dumb question maybe?

    and

    battery banks "Thinking out loud"

    It can be done but i don't think it is either clever or cheap. Or wise or effective or even safe.

    K
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  • RWB
    RWB Solar Expert Posts: 168 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #21
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    Re: I Just Ordered This (Sunwise 100W Panels and Sunsaver Controller)
    retrodog wrote: »
    I don't quite understand this. I was thinking about getting two more panels for a total of 400Watts. It states that the controller will support it if it is set up with 24V battery instead of 12V.

    The panels are advertised as "12V Panel" on Solarblvd.com, but their operational voltage is about 23V. So two of them in series is 46V. I was planning on going with two in series, and in parallel with two more in series. Would that balance adequately or would I need something else to protect them (diodes, etc.)?

    I guess I could talk to the Morningstar guys about it, or maybe those at Solar Blvd.

    You are correct its 200w when connected to a 12v battery bank and 400w when connected to a 24v battery bank. So yea you can add the panels like you are planning and you should be very happy with your setup that way.

    The Controller can only put 15A max into the battery at either voltage.
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