Midinite 150 first impressions
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Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsI look at the SOC to see if the batteries are charged or not
and then go hunting, fishing, hiking, ATVing or other outdoor activity...
I do it the other way around. I usually just go fishing and then my wife calls me on the cell phone and says there's something wrong with the SOC
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Chris -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressionshide their comm protocols from me - such as Xantrex.
They don't hide their protocols. I wrote them and their immediately sent me very detailed list of their Xanbus messages with all the parameters (only monitoring part though). You only need a CAN controller. CAN is a very common protocol used in tractors, boats, in every car. If you want it in your computer, there must be lots of CAN-to-USB, CAN-to-Ethernet, or CAN-to-RS232 converters available. -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsChrisOlson wrote: »I do it the other way around. I usually just go fishing and then my wife calls me on the cell phone and says there's something wrong with the SOC
Computer can call (or text) you too
Can even wake you up in the middle of the night if something real bad is happening. -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsComputer can call (or text) you too Can even wake you up in the middle of the night if something real bad is happening.
Wife does all that - including waking me up in the middle of the night if something bad is happening. Yep. My complete remote system monitoring and configuration solution:
Wife with a Cell Phone
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Chris -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressions
Consider yourself lucky... My batteries could be dead, the lights could be dimming and my wife wouldn't notice unless her cell phone was dead..8)ChrisOlson wrote: »Wife does all that - including waking me up in the middle of the night if something bad is happening. Yep. My complete remote system monitoring and configuration solution:
Wife with a Cell Phone
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Chris -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsChrisOlson wrote: »Actually, the XW's communication protocols are published someplace because there's third-party solutions like this one that have communicated with the XW system for quite some time:
Perhaps they do now. At the time I bought my system (about 6 years ago) I couldn't find them. I was told that I would have to sign a non-disclosure agreement to get them.The Outback's comm protocols are proprietary.
They do use a proprietary protocol, but they have always had full documentation for it available on their website. Fortunately it's also a very simple text-based protocol so quite easy to implement, as opposed to some of the binary goop I've had to figure out with other (not solar) stuff.
I tend to check on my system fairly frequently just "because I can", but have been known to forget all about it for a few days at a time since it can pretty much take care of itself now. It can let me know via text or email if something goes cockeyed. -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsPerhaps they do now. At the time I bought my system (about 6 years ago) I couldn't find them. I was told that I would have to sign a non-disclosure agreement to get them.
I think that Power Dashboard software has been available for the XW system since 2007 when he released his first version of it. When was the XW released - like late 2006 or so? It seems to me the last SW Plus inverters were built in 2005.
I remember talking to this guy once in about 2009 or so about this software because I run wind turbines and he wanted to sell me a "license" or something for it so I could try it. I wasn't all that interested in it because I got better things to do when I'm gone than constantly watch my system over a cell phone or whatever. I figure if it blows I'll fix it when I get home, and if the explosion is real big I'll see the mushroom cloud from hundreds of miles away.
But IIRC, he told me he was trying to reverse engineer Outback's communication protocol so he could add Outback functionality to it.
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Chris -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressions
I had to dig into my archives, it was the first part of 2009 when I was looking at brands and buying my Outback system. I never could remember dates!
Anyway, at that point I wasn't able to find the Xantrex docs, but Outback had a PDF on their website with all details.
It was down to those two for me, I really desired the load-sharing ability of the Xantrex but wanted to be able to write my own comm programs even more. -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsI had to dig into my archives, it was the first part of 2009 when I was looking at brands and buying my Outback system
It seems to me that would be about the time that the transition was taking place between Xantrex and Schneider Electric. I think the deal was announced in 2008 and the paperwork actually done in 2009. There was a lot of stuff lost in the shuffle when that took place but I think Schneider has it all pretty well sorted out now. Their tech support can even supply pinouts on communication and stacking ports, and other technical information, on the older SW/SW Plus series now. And Xantrex would never supply that information, except only to their dealers.
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Chris -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressions
Yes, there is good software available for a *person* to monitor things. However, that's not what I'm after. I want to set up a system that has full control of any function based on any other input variables I may wish to use. I thought of a better specific example after writing the above yesterday:
I install the Classic into my current system. As it stands now, the Classic knows nothing about system loads, battery amps (I know Midnite is working on a shunt board) or what the other CC is doing, but I already have the FNDC telling me everything I need to know in satisfying detail. If I have a network variable I can stuff the battery amps value into (or others if useful to the control software in the Classic) now it can work with that value without my having to add a redundant piece of hardware. (And the Classic may even have that point available, I haven't looked at the modbus doc in detail yet.)
In this case, nearly everything is in place, as I can already talk to the Mate and Classic it's just a matter of having the network variable present to be used.
The FX inverter control is one I wanted to try a while back, I already switch it between grid and inverter on a schedule (time of day, along with some other parameters) and last year went to TOU billing. Occasionally there are heavily overcast days where the utility is charging a high rate (since they set the day's rates 5PM the day before) so I keep the inverter going and draw down the battery bank. I wanted to be able to tell the charger in the inverter to start at (say) midnight to bulk-charge to a certain point if it was necessary - but I can't. That control point simply isn't available.
I'm sure no one really foresaw a use for that, heaven knows very few people are going to set up a system like I do! I work with what I can get, knowing that, but will take every opportunity to express my desire for more.
As to currently available software, I don't do Windows. (I do have it in a VM for those times when I have no other option.) Very few companies offer their software for OSX, almost none for Linux. That's fine, just another example of my deviation from societal norms! I've also found I usually want a different layout / system representation from the original author's - just personal preference. However, I *can* write my *own* software. I just want the functional interfaces and documentation available to be able to do so.
!
I am a very reluctant Windows user - only using it when absolutely necessary. I prefer OSX/Linux. I use Windows for my monitoring netbook only beceause Wattplot is windows only.
I assume you've seen the Greenmonitor software for monitoring Outback equipment - which I believe runs on Linux. The develper -Julie(Tallgirl) -is around the forums but mostly on the Outback forum
As far as remotely controlling equipment - I believe the ability to extensively remotely control CC settings is pretty unique to the Midnite Classic but I'm not sure what degree of control is offered by others.
There are several people independently doing software development to monitor and control Midnite CCs independently from Midnites own provided tools. The Classics Modbus protocol is published and open I believe. Several posters on the Midnite forum has details of their projects - some using Linux, some coded in python, some in other C variants, some using SCADA software like Mango, some implementing Modbus over TCP, etc . You'd probably get more concrete info from programming savy Classic users on the Midnite forum.
I'm not a programmer - but can develop in LabView and do limited Atmel/Arduino type stuff. I am working on setting up a more accurate system for monitoring AC and DC input/output to my system to overcome some of the resolution limitations in the current hardware. I hope eventually to have system feeding all my data into small, local low power box thatI can also remotely monitor via the Web.
It would be nice if someone eventually developed a nice integrated solution for combining the Outback Mate's serial data/limited control and the Classics modbus data/control. You sound like someone who could get this done! -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsI had to dig into my archives, it was the first part of 2009 when I was looking at brands and buying my Outback system. I never could remember dates! Anyway, at that point I wasn't able to find the Xantrex docs, but Outback had a PDF on their website with all details.
It was down to those two for me, I really desired the load-sharing ability of the Xantrex but wanted to be able to write my own comm programs even more.
I think the OB document you are referring to may be about their mate RS232 protocol (monitoring only) and not their internal product/hub/mate communications protocol.
boB -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressions
So you just design a little Arduino-based translator unit that can read and write to multiple protocols!
I'm glad I'm not obsessed with monitoring systems. Sounds like an expensive hobby. -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsI think the OB document you are referring to may be about their mate RS232 protocol (monitoring only) and not their internal product/hub/mate communications protocol.
I think the Mate3 has a little weblet thing in it that you can look at with your internet program in your computer to see what's it's doing. When we looked at the Radian system before we bought our XW, that's what the guy that had it told me. But I didn't see it work.
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Chris -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsCariboocoot wrote: »So you just design a little Arduino-based translator unit that can read and write to multiple protocols!
Not me! I'm just trying to take current sensor and voltage data out of my ePanel. I wish I had the knowledge base to make use of the Classics Modbus data and the Mate's serial data. Perhaps some day I'll find the time to learn- but more likely someone else will get all that working in an integrated package first.
- Not really. Arduinos and sensors are pretty cheap. $30 for a prefab arduino - or easy to make your own for $10 in parts.Sounds like an expensive hobby. -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsI think the OB document you are referring to may be about their mate RS232 protocol (monitoring only) and not their internal product/hub/mate communications protocol.
Oh yes, you're right. I've had the whole system all connected together for so long I tend to think of the Mate as an "integral part". Though I don't suppose I'd have a full Outback system *without* it.
Still, it does provide easy access to the system for an outside computer. It does also have remote control ability, but only of two or three points. Fortunately, one is "go grid / go inverter". Unfortunately "run/stop charger" is not... -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsChrisOlson wrote: »I think the Mate3 has a little weblet thing in it that you can look at with your internet program in your computer to see what's it's doing. When we looked at the Radian system before we bought our XW, that's what the guy that had it told me. But I didn't see it work.
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Chris
I bought my system just before the Mate 3 came out. The Mate 2 simply spits out strings of characters, with a brief window to listen for command strings in between. It spits out a string every second, each string associated with one of the in-use ports on the hub. If you only have two devices, it'll alternate between those two strings. if you have 6 devices, it'll cycle through each one every 6 seconds.
Not too useful as-is, but succinct and easy to parse into usable data. Uses a standard RS232 port so as easy as it gets to interface with. -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsI bought my system just before the Mate 3 came out.
The dealer that was trying to line us up with a new Radian system told me that Outback is phasing out the older Mates and the Mate3 will be the only one you can get anymore.
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Chris -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsI bought my system just before the Mate 3 came out. The Mate 2 simply spits out strings of characters, with a brief window to listen for command strings in between. It spits out a string every second, each string associated with one of the in-use ports on the hub. If you only have two devices, it'll alternate between those two strings. if you have 6 devices, it'll cycle through each one every 6 seconds.
Not too useful as-is, but succinct and easy to parse into usable data. Uses a standard RS232 port so as easy as it gets to interface with.
The original Mate certainly seems to have some advantages in its simplicity.
The Mate 3 has more built in data display and web interface capability for sure. As I understand it, it streams UDP packets which I don't know enough about that protocol to say how much better or worse it would be for do-it-yourself programming. I know the next version of Wattplot will be Mate 3 compatible. Greenmonitor may already be.
For intergrating Midnite Classic and Outback data monitoring and control into one application, the best solution may be to use the new Outback AXS port which I believe speaks Modbus like the Classic. I think the AXS port offers more control options as well so overall is probably a better solution than going through the Mate or Mate3 -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressions
People are interested in remote monitoring, preferrably through the Web, or even changing parameters remotely. If you want monitoring, this is such a multitude of monitoring software/services that can be fitted into any system. Ther's no reason to select one or another devices based on monitoring.
Even though monitoring looks very cool, I do not see much use in it. As if you had a system that requires constant monitoring and changing parameters to work properly. Probably not the case.
It is much more important that all these networks and protocols can be used to make different parts made by different manufacturers work together. A PLC or a computer can be used to connect to all of them and ensure efficient energy production, battery charging, load management. Once this is done, you do not need any monitorig unless something went really wrong.
I have Xantrex XW system. I don't think I have more problems communicating with it than I would have with any other system. A big advantage of the XW system is that it can be accessed (and controlled if you wish) through a single connect point - Xanbus. Xanbus is far from perfect, but it is reliable and, in fact, can be used to accomplish lots of different things. What is more important is that the system components work together relatively well as is, so I actually need to do very little extra. This might be an advantage over mix-and-match systems. -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsEven though monitoring looks very cool, I do not see much use in it. As if you had a system that requires constant monitoring and changing parameters to work properly.
Same here. I think it has to be more of a hobby that many folks find to be fun. I believe in setting up our system once, with the appropriate amount of automation, so it doesn't have to be monitored or adjusted again.
I have XW system with Classics and they did not play nice with each other before. But one of the other very helpful members of the forum here sent me an email and told me how to disable the 2% of ah capacity drop out of absorb problem with the XW so it simply counts down like the Classic does in absorb. That is the kind of information we need to get various mix and match components to work together.
I picked the stuff I picked for our system because I believe it is the stuff that will work best for us. A system that needs to be constantly monitored just seems like a lot of work or worry IMHO.
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Chris -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressions
Heheheh I like the "wife and phone" monitor system.... For me the monitoring / automation is useful and a hobby...I like to open my browser and see all my in/ outs amps etc after a while is a normal routine as checking email...
Regarding the wife and the renewable systems... I have something like, when I'm near, my system resists to everything even if I don't touch it....
If I go abroad for 2/3 days, bump wife calling/ or I receive an alarm that something happened and normally it's a different thing and one f kind at least my wife knows well the solution and can at least fallback to grid bypassing the solar system ..
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Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsRegarding the wife and the renewable systems... I have something like, when I'm near, my system resists to everything even if I don't touch it....
If I go abroad for 2/3 days, bump wife calling/ or I receive an alarm that something happened and normally it's a different thing and one f kind at least my wife knows well the solution and can at least fallback to grid bypassing the solar system ..
...
Well yes, in all fairness to my wife, she knows what to do if there's a problem. Basically, the only maintenance or adjustments required on our system anymore is to check and water batteries, put fuel in the generators, and drop the wind turbines once a year and grease them and sand and re-clear the leading edges of the blades.
We don't have grid to fall back on but we got four different ways to route power to loads from the inverter or generators so any major component in the system can totally fail and all we have to do is flip some transfer switches and maybe manually start a generator and our power still stays on from a different source. That basic power routing system hasn't changed for several years despite changing inverters. So my wife knows what switches to flip to connect whatever generator she wants to the loads and bypass the entire DC power system, and shut it entirely down if necessary.
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Chris -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsPeople are interested in remote monitoring, preferrably through the Web, or even changing parameters remotely. If you want monitoring, this is such a multitude of monitoring software/services that can be fitted into any system. Ther's no reason to select one or another devices based on monitoring.
Even though monitoring looks very cool, I do not see much use in it. As if you had a system that requires constant monitoring and changing parameters to work properly. Probably not the case.
It is much more important that all these networks and protocols can be used to make different parts made by different manufacturers work together. A PLC or a computer can be used to connect to all of them and ensure efficient energy production, battery charging, load management. Once this is done, you do not need any monitorig unless something went really wrong.
This is exactly where the midnite outshines the competition: They use an open and published monitoring and configuration protocol. So not only can you choose to monitor it with many different software packages, but you can also program it with many different apps (basically anything that talks modbus). Can't do that with outback, or Xantrex (AFAIK). You can partially do it with the morningstar, but changing the morningstar parameters via modbus requires a reset of the controller every time.
Monitoring is only step 1 in the Ideal Off-Grid Power Management System (tm), step 2 is alerting and step 3 is automation. When the components talk open protocols and can have their settings changed through those same protocols, then you can start to do some fancy automation to tweak the system. E.g.:
If battery SoC is < 60% in the morning, and the forecast is for cloudy weather, then turn the generator on now rather than wait for the batts to drop to 50% in the afternoon.
The midnite's on the fly configuration also means you can define your own charging profile using an automation system. E.g. to do an IUIa profile as recommended for traction batts and to break up stratification. Got mine doing one of those charges every 20 days using this logic in the raspberry pi:
- Bulk until 57.6V
- Absorb until the battery charging amps drop below 2A
- Limit current to 5A for every 100Ah of battery
- EQ for 5 minutes at 62V
- Reset limit back to 80A
- Float
Attachment not found.
None of this would be possible if midnite had chosen a closed proprietary protocol -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressions
Monitoring is one thing - remote configuration worries me a bit. It's a hacker magnet. Hackers have broken into the most secure applications and systems on earth just for the challenge. So they do a network port scan and find TCP port 502 open and go "hmmmmmm - what have we here?" With an automated password cracking program it takes less than 10 minutes to find the 4 digit number that allows them to log in on your Classic and set the batteries to High Boil just for fun.
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Chris -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsThe midnite's on the fly configuration also means you can define your own charging profile using an automation system. E.g. to do an IUIa profile as recommended for traction batts and to break up stratification. Got mine doing one of those charges every 20 days using this logic in the raspberry pi:
- Bulk until 57.6V
- Absorb until the battery charging amps drop below 2A
- Limit current to 5A for every 100Ah of battery
- EQ for 5 minutes at 62V
- Reset limit back to 80A
- Float
None of this would be possible if midnite had chosen a closed proprietary protocol
You could do that with XW too. It would require some reverse engineering, but nothing difficult, because you can intercept all the communications between SCP and other components.
I also thought about doing a custom charging profile with voltage gradually increasing as absorption goes by. Then I decided against it. I thought that the SCC writes the settings to EEPROM, and who knows what this EEPROM is. If it can only stand 10,000 writes and I do 30 changes a day, it may not even last a year.
For automation, it would be nice if units didn't have their own brains, but rather took their commands from a central control unit. You could then simply change the control unit. If you're off-grid you can use off-grid control unit. If you want UPS yuou use UPS control unit. If you want more you put in your own control unit. This sort of modular design would work much better than what we have today. Perhaps, someone will come up with such system architecture in the future. -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressions
This was close to happening and was discussed during the testing of the 600V controller for XW. The 2008/09 recession killed it along the big delay in smart grid appliances. For security the internet/cell access was going to be on timers with codes, kind of like secure e-mail is. The goal for me has always been dealing with clouds and loads. The way I currently do this is too clunky for most of my customers. The inverter needs to have control and know the loads and charge sources and be able to meter the system in different weather conditions.You could do that with XW too. It would require some reverse engineering, but nothing difficult, because you can intercept all the communications between SCP and other components.
I also thought about doing a custom charging profile with voltage gradually increasing as absorption goes by. Then I decided against it. I thought that the SCC writes the settings to EEPROM, and who knows what this EEPROM is. If it can only stand 10,000 writes and I do 30 changes a day, it may not even last a year.
For automation, it would be nice if units didn't have their own brains, but rather took their commands from a central control unit. You could then simply change the control unit. If you're off-grid you can use off-grid control unit. If you want UPS yuou use UPS control unit. If you want more you put in your own control unit. This sort of modular design would work much better than what we have today. Perhaps, someone will come up with such system architecture in the future."we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
htps://offgridsolar1.com/
E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsChrisOlson wrote: »Monitoring is one thing - remote configuration worries me a bit. It's a hacker magnet. Hackers have broken into the most secure applications and systems on earth just for the challenge. So they do a network port scan and find TCP port 502 open and go "hmmmmmm - what have we here?" With an automated password cracking program it takes less than 10 minutes to find the 4 digit number that allows them to log in on your Classic and set the batteries to High Boil just for fun.
Only if you expose the Classic to the net, which would be a bad idea! The Classic should only be accessible on a secured internal network.
If someone wants to use a software package on their laptop to control remotely, then set up a VPN of some sort back to their home system.
In my case the automation system also resides on the internal network, and only presents a sanitized interface to the outside world. If someone were to hack my automation interface, the most they could do is cause the solar system to go off-grid and draw down the battery bank. They can't get at the piece that actually limits the DOD because it isn't there, the automation front-end only sends values for parameters I want changeable back to it.
I suppose the most annoying thing they could do is to cause the system to go ON grid during the day during the week, costing me some money using expensive on-peak kWhs!
And I only have the automation system publicly available because it's neat to show people. If I find I start having problems, it'll disappear behind the firewall. The vast majority of the web interfaces I have set up / created are all behind a VPN. I can connect in remotely with my laptop or even phone, but I have to connect to the VPN first then connect to the interface just as I would if I were at home.
I have a long-term (as-I-feel-like-it) plan which will in fact push all *controllable* interfaces behind the VPN. I'll instead have view-only dynamic web pages on my public website that let people see what's going on but absolutely no way to send commands back to the system. One of the reasons I've been migrating everything to a proper database, so the data is readily available for multiple different front-ends.
As you said, this is all about fun and hobbies! Absolutely none of what I'm doing now is *necessary*, just fun - also why it's taking me so long to get it done, I have too many other fun hobbies competing for the time! Heh... -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsOnly if you expose the Classic to the net, which would be a bad idea!
Exactly! Besides - why any hacker would be looking to find my needle in an internet haystack system is beyond me. Even if it was exposed to the net the chances of someone finding it and then making the effort to hack into it is about the likelyhood of me getting a direct lightning strike.As you said, this is all about fun and hobbies! Absolutely none of what I'm doing now is *necessary*, just fun - also why it's taking me so long to get it done, I have too many other fun hobbies competing for the time! Heh...
Oh yeah - I'm with ya there. -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressions
Most normal hackers know PC's and windoze and not modbus over TCP/IP so much.
One thing that we have found that helps, at least for SSH, is to use a non-standard port. Anything above 1000 or something like that.
You don't have to use port 502. You also have to set the password ID each session.
This is where My Midnite is good since the security is very good... and very involved. Eventually you should be able to control
things through My Midnite too.
boB -
Re: Midinite 150 first impressionsMost normal hackers know PC's and windoze and not modbus over TCP/IP so much.
You don't need to speak Modbus over TCP. All a blackhat needs to do is download the free Local App, know the IP address and serial number of a Classic hooked to the internet, and they have access to it.
I don't think security by obscurity really works. I have seen various linux clubs host a "break into this computer" contest, and invariably the skilled blackhat can break into any of them in less than 48 hours. There has been multitudes of security vulnerabilities found in SSH, the Apache webserver, etc, by developers or clubs hosting those contests. They can build the most secure application they think possible, and there's always a blackhat that can find a hole in it.
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Chris
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