sun-130 panels

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Dapdan
Dapdan Solar Expert Posts: 330 ✭✭
in General Solar Power Topics #1
Hey all,

Does anyone have any experience with the sun 130 sold by the guys in Miami. Is the Sun 90 similar that has the positive grounding.

Icarus...

Is this panel similar to yours and if so how is your working out so far. I am considering buying a few of these panels... the price is right

Cheers...
Damani
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #2
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    HOLY COW , 1.98 watt ... smoking deal. This are the SunPower cells ( you can tell as its the interconnection on the back ).

    At this price I wouldn't worry about possible charge/glass issues, If I understand correctly, its mostly a High Voltage issue ... if your running 12/24/48V I wouldn't expect issues ... BB you dug into this, right?

    Also the 19.8 Vmp is sweet for battery systems , 4 is fine, even in hot climates for a 48V system
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  • Dapdan
    Dapdan Solar Expert Posts: 330 ✭✭
    #3
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    yes SG that is a pretty darn good price I should get some quickly before they go. Do you know if the positive ground is requirement like with the Sun 90. If so will they still operate with say the xw mppt. Is the discount from your forum still valid?


    so even though it says max system voltage of 70v you are saying that 4 in series is still workable (perhaps because of derating through high ambient temps)

    Cheers...
    Damani
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #4
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    I looked into this before... As I recall, the positive ground is even a requirement for even a 1 panel system (low or high voltage wrt ground)...
    BB. wrote: »
    It is not the metal frames that affect the "charging process"... It is the positive or negative grounding of the solar panel power leads themselves. So--there is not direct operational effect by the Frames so NEC would not care about that.

    I found a new link to one of the old papers here (PDF Download).

    The original thread thread with a bunch of quotes (from other papers that may no longer be available on the web) about the issue is in this thread:

    http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?t=1458

    It has been a long time since I read the details--but a simple way of understand is to think of the solar panel as having a floating capacitor element. When negatively charged--the solar PV energy capture charges this capacitor--and the charge, more or less, interferes with the movement of holes and electrons in the PV substrates.

    When positively grounded, the charge will bleed off and the charge carriers no longer have an "E Field" from that "capacitive element" in the front of the panel that keeps them from moving as well.

    For Grid Tied systems, this is not a problem, at least one vendor (Xantrex--and I am sure there are others) have a Positive Ground stuffing option for their inverters so there is no issue (GT inverter isolate the PV panel wiring from the house wiring/grounding--so they don't care how, or even if, the PV panels are grounded--just changing a couple component stuffing locations changes which way the ground is connected).

    For Off-Grid systems--the problem is more difficult. Most (all?) solar charge controllers (PWM and MPPT) are not isolated between their PV input and the battery output... So however the battery system is grounded is how the solar panels will be grounded.

    In the last 40+ years, for what ever reason, negative grounding for consumer electronics became the standard (1950's and earlier cars, and cars from Europe used to, commonly, have positive grounding).

    So--you are kind of stuck with either making your own home system positive ground (and double checking everything you connect does not use the metal case as negative ground)--or staying away from, otherwise very nice, Sunpower solar panels (telecom/phone network systems and galvanic cathode pipe protection systems use positive ground to help prevent pipes from being corroded by stray electric currents).

    I did a quick look though the old links in several threads--and they all appear to be dead... Trying some google searches on quoted information may hit on copies of the papers elsewhere. (quick search yielded more dead links).

    At this time, before a purchased a SunPower panel for a negative ground system, I would make them produce the paper with data on the problem.

    My guess is the price of the panel is very close to ~$2.8xx a watt, if you assume the panel degrades when connected to negative ground.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #5
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    From a previous thread,, it is the SunPower modules that are positive ground. The Sun panels from Sun Electronics in FLA are not effected as I understand it,, finally.

    Tony
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  • Dapdan
    Dapdan Solar Expert Posts: 330 ✭✭
    #6
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    So Icarus,

    How are your sun 90 working so far. Any anomalies? They are the same brand as the Sun 130...right.

    Cheers...
    Damani
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #7
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    I did some search with google, found this power-point document ...

    www.sciencecafesf.com/wp-content/uploads/SolarScienceCafe.ppt

    Its somewhat a guess, but it looks to me the effect has something to do with what is called the "contact recombination loss" and it would be different depending on the charge at the front of the cell. The Sunpower cell shows loses of about 1.2% vs a typical Si cell of 3.8% ( keep in mind this is relative to the theoretical maximum of 29% that can be achieved )

    If one assumes that what is going to take the hit, then one would derate the sunpower cell by about 8-9% for running in a typical negative grounded system.

    So, if its really 1.98 watt * 1.09, the effective price is more like 2.16 watt, still quite good. Now if you want to sleep better, just get the proven Sun Labeled Evergreens for 2.38 watt

    Not sure this helps, but its the best I could find
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #8
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    I'm perfectly happy with mine,, at $1.98/watt I would love to buy a couple more.

    Tony
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  • FL SUN
    FL SUN Solar Expert Posts: 94 ✭✭✭✭
    #9
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    The cells in those panels are apparently out of tolerance from SunPower and sent to China for manufacture into these panels for Sunelec. These are the "positively grounded" cells, and do have reduced efficiency as sg said. For off-grid use, the loss is somewhat negligible, and still a great deal.
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  • RVoutreach
    RVoutreach Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #10
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    I called Sun-Elec this morning about these panels. I explained my intended use, 3 panels to be installed with a MPPT charge controller on an RV... and asked if these were suitable panels. He said yes.

    I asked why the Kyocera panels show a maximum system voltage of 600v and these Sun panels show only 70v... he flatly stated the Kyocera is a much higher quality panel and there is no comparison between the two.

    So now I am nervous about the Sun130 panels, although the price sure is tempting.
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #11
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    None of the Sun Electric Sales people know anything technical about these products, I been there an meet them, they work hard to bring good deals, but they are neither technicians or engineers and know very little about how these things go together. Since these are non-UL panels, maximum system voltage doesn't mean a thing.

    I'm not suggesting the panels are good or bad, but I would have a hard time believing panels manufactured with Sun Power cells are any worse that Kyocera ... the 70V is for sure a typo IMHO, I've seen all sorts of typos over the years, mostly with vmp , voltage and current specs that don't add up.

    If you have any concerns, the 2.38 watt Sun ( private labeled Evergreens ) are proven performers and would fine for an RV application and if you want UL, then step up to the "A" or "B" grade Evergreens.
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  • RVoutreach
    RVoutreach Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭
    #12
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    I would love to use the Evergreens but I don't have enough room on my travel trailer for 2 of them. If I had the space I would have already purchased them. :) I am limited to an area of 84" x 54".

    But in your solar wisdom, I'd be fine with 3 of these panels and a quality 45+ watt MPPT charge controller for my RV?

    Note: I can fit 3 of these due to smaller widths.
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    You guys are now making my head spin!

    Just so I'm clear,,, SunPower panels sold by various vendors have a positive ground reference? correct?

    Sun Panels from Sun electonics in FLA, come in two fashions, rebranded evergreens with a negative ground reference? correct? And some of them come with "out of spec" SunPower cells put together for Sun Electronics? These carry the positive ground reference? Correct?

    This is now clear as mud. If some one could explain. I agree that the sales folks on the floor at Sun Elect. don't seem to have a clue. Perhaps SG can give us the uptown/lowdown on this stuff.

    Tony
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  • PhilS
    PhilS Solar Expert Posts: 370 ✭✭✭
    #14
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    I'm getting confused now.

    I just installed six Sun HS-130 panels through an MX60. I grounded them normally, which is negative. I see they are no longer listed, only the HS-120s. I have no clue what the difference is between the HS and non-HS. These Sun 130 panels certainly do have a better price than the HS panels, and THAT price was good.

    They are working great. I haven't spent enough time observing but when I looked late yesterday afternoon, I was getting over 40A @ 12V. My battery bank was in absorb mode and appeared to be near float. They are connected as two sets of three-in-series.

    Phil
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #15
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    I agree, very poor documentation and easy to get confused ... I don't have any relations to SunElectric and to be frank, I'm not going to spend my time trying to make sense of all the house brands of the month and what they are so THEY can make sales .... and further this is the windsun forum, a competitor and sponsor of this forum.

    It appears to me from the online spec it stays back cell contact, that would mean it has to be SunPower Cell ( Not Sun Electronics ) cells. To my knowledge, Sun Electronics doesn't manufacture anything, they get huge discounts relabeling major brand panels that aren't perfect and sell them as "Sun" modules and they take on all warranty issues. Win for Manufacture to make money from otherwise not to spec inventory, win for Customer that doesn't need framed art quality solar panels and of course win for SunElec in sales

    So, this is my last post on this reseller ... if you have questions, Make a call and get them to answer them to your satisfaction, that's what they should be doing and correctly to make sales

    SG
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #16
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    Thank you for the info SG,

    I agree that some deference must be paid to NWAS as a site sponsor. So as I conclude after all of this, any panel that is described as "back cell contact" has Sun Panel cells re branded by SUN ELECTRONICS and therefore is subject to positive ground issues.

    If anyone has any other useful information on this issue it might be helpful.

    Tony
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  • Windsun
    Windsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    #17
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    Quite frankly, we are getting a bit sick and tired of providing tech support for people that bought those Sun panels from Sunelec. It appears that they are not capable of providing any decent support themselves.

    Just one example of the advice they gave one customer was that they could put 5 of the panels in series, even though the panels are only rated at max 70 system volts.

    If people want to buy crap because it is cheap that is fine - but don't expect us to provide free tech support.

    After the 3rd phone call just today about it, all of us here are getting a bit upset.
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #18
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    That's really bad that people are calling YOU for product you didn't sell!

    I'd just delete the whole thread, this is your forum and I feel bad for even discussing it here :blush:
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #19
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    I would vote (not that this is a democracy here ;) ) to leave the thread up...

    Just another clue as to why it makes sense to patronize a company that goes out of their way to provided customer support and even provides a free of charge web forum for full and complete discussions of the good, bad, and the ugly of solar RE (regardless of vendor/source/etc.)...

    Vs those that provide customers with incomplete, incorrect, and false information (aka the sock puppets I banned a few days ago for yet another brand saying the CE was better than UL/NRTL as a safety certification mark/agency).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Windsun
    Windsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    #20
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    Re: sun-130 panels
    Solar Guppy wrote: »
    That's really bad that people are calling YOU for product you didn't sell!

    I'd just delete the whole thread, this is your forum and I feel bad for even discussing it here :blush:

    Don't feel bad, I just want people to be aware of what they might run into buying those or any other bargain panels, especially one that may not provide any support. (if I get another call or email on those stoopid Harbor Freight panels I will scream also).
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    #21
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    Windsun writes "If people want to buy crap because it is cheap that is fine - but don't expect us to provide free tech support."

    Here, here!

    I think even discussing Brand X is a little dicey on this forum, but since Windsun has made it clear that this is a forum to share ideas and information INCLUDING that of competitors then I don't have any problem with it. If Windsun begins to feel put upon by members of this forum, then he (they) will have to make it know that the rules have changed.

    My hope is the above mentioned callers came from outside this forum. I would hope that any member of the forum who would do something so inconsiderate should get a proper dressing down, AND learn some manners!

    Tony
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #22
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    We were all newbies at one time...

    It is unfortunate--but the people who call/email/post are frequently frustrated and underwater in their solar RE investment.

    And the vendor/forum who offers support (when the original supplier bails) is the one that is going to get slammed with spending time supporting someone else's sales and/or sound like a curmudgeon for not taking the time to provide the free support for products--that they would never sell in the first place because said products (rarely) perform to specifications or expectations.

    And--that is why we are here (and Windsun took the time, effort, and $$$ to setup this forum)--to help newbies + others (and provide a searchable database) of issues regarding solar RE products.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Kamala
    Kamala Solar Expert Posts: 452 ✭✭
    #23
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    If I ran the circus... I would do just as Windsun has done with this forum. But I would not provide tech support for products that I did not sell. Perhaps his good nature (or dream?) impinges on his business sense. :roll:

    The 3 Kyc panels I just bought from NAWS came in at $4.87/W. Yep, I might have found the same panel a little cheaper elsewhere. For sure I could have found other panels considerably cheaper elsewhere. But try to measure the cost of dissatisfaction. Did the 3-4 months I spent in this forum steer me to buy from NAWS? Absolutely! Did I ever get spammed or solicited by NAWS? No! The freedom that I felt to simply learn, knowing that a seller hosted the forum, made that seller seem more trustworthy. This is why NAWS got ~50% of my budget.

    A seller that invites a comparison to others sellers has confidence indeed. Confidence alone represents little. Thirty years of confidence makes me take notice.

    Keep fighting the good fight.

    Craig
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  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭✭
    #24
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    Well said Craig. Money ain't everything, especially in R/E.

    Ralph
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  • nigtomdaw
    nigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    #25
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    Maybe Windand Sun could set up one of those bussiness option telephone systems ,
    Like Press

    1. For New Customer Enquiry
    2. Existing Customer Enquiry
    3. Technical Assistance on Products Bought from NAWS

    Following Options are charged at premium rate $1 a minute

    4. Harbour Freight Supplied Solar Equipment
    5. Sun Panels from Sun Elec

    Following Options are charged at Super Premium Rate $2 a minute

    6. Anything else to do with Sun Elec

    Just a thought
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #26
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    actually for 4, 5, and 6 i'd just give the phone numbers of those respective businesses and let them deal with their own customers.
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  • John Kimball
    John Kimball Registered Users Posts: 4
    #27
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    The large SUN modules are made exclusively for Sun Electronics Int., Inc. by a major U.S. manufacturer. It's not hard to figure out which one.

    The small SUN modules, 130 watts and less, are made with Sun Power back contact sells. We are trying some other ones out using different designs and cells.

    We will try to keep it all organized to avid confusion.

    We hope to set up our own small manufacturing plant soon.

    The Solar Guppy guy knows exactly what he's talking about. I have been in solar for 36 years. I'd hate to think after all that I don't have clue about anything technical regarding solar, but I have to admit I learned just about everything I know from people like him and David Katz.

    "Nothing promotes the use of solar energy more than a happy solar system owner who has spent his hard earned money and is totally satisfied".
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  • cajun666
    cajun666 Solar Expert Posts: 27 ✭
    #28
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    Re: sun-130 panels

    i have 3 of those 130 panel form that palce i ahve it hook them up

    but i well let u now haw it goes:roll:
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