Outback sold to Alpha Technologies

icarus
icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
in Solar Product Reviews & Opinions #1
Did anyone notice that Outback Power Systems was sold today to Alpha Technologies of Bellingham WA? Alpha does all kinds of stuff including large installs.

http://www.alpha.com/Products/Renewable-Energy/

Tony
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  • JESSICA
    JESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289 ✭✭
    #2
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies

    Yes.

    Here are the news:

    http://www.bellinghamherald.com/2010/07/19/1532576/bellingham-based-alpha-group-acquires.html
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #3
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies

    so did anybody find out why outback elected to sell? i know many will want to answer, for the $, but when one has a gold mine already to make $ it signals something about the mine when it's sold does it not? to me this wasn't the first signal either, but i hope things work for the best.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #4
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies

    I'd suspect it wasn't quite the "goldmine" you'd imagine. Outback's equipment is aging in its design. Perhaps rather than invest money in a complete overhaul and update they decided to sell to Alpha and let them come up with the capital to improve.

    Unfortunately they don't have to tell us why.

    I just hope their customer service doesn't suffer. I see from another post that Xantrex's CS hasn't improved any despite being bought by Schneider.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #5
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies

    Just to be fair--the Schneider product line we have not heard anything about customer support-that I have seen (other than the website has been a pain to use).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #6
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies

    I was referring to this thread: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?t=8688
    Well I just got off the phone with Xantrex support. The guy on the other end couldn't get me off the phone fast enough.

    Doesn't sound like good service to me.
    Mind you it's an improvement over the service they gave me years ago when they wouldn't talk at all. :grr
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  • halfcrazy
    halfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    #7
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies

    My guess is that the board and share holders wanted out it has been a tough road for outback for a year or so now less money there then you may guess scarely so
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  • tallgirl
    tallgirl Solar Expert Posts: 413 ✭✭
    #8
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    I was referring to this thread: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?t=8688

    Doesn't sound like good service to me.
    Mind you it's an improvement over the service they gave me years ago when they wouldn't talk at all. :grr

    Xantrex has famously poor tech support. OutBack has been pretty good, though I understand they (somewhat intentionally -- liability issues) won't provide electric code level support.
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #9
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies

    Hi all,

    I'm new to this forum (although I've always checked in on it). A little insight on the Outback deal.

    The Outback deal closed Monday July 12th. The company has been in financial trouble with the bank for a long time. Gross mismanagement, owners fighting etc. - not a business model unique to Outback!

    During the course of closing, the already severely under resourced engineering dept. got even more under resourced. Myself and two other engineers, all working on "key" projects couldn't arrive at terms (i.e. were told to sign legal documents without being alotted time for legal review). Mom said, don't sign stuff you don't understand! The director of IT is also out of there, others may follow.

    The engineering dept is down to just a small handful of folks. Of course, some more capable than others.

    Tech support is untouched and will be just fine. I know they take pride in providing technical services and will always give the best effort to supporting the products. They're good people.

    I'm looking forward to other opportunities to continue in RE. I was with Trace Engineering way back when it was the "REAL" Trace, and have always enjoyed this industry. One of the greatest additions (IMHO) was/is forums like this and Outback's. I am continously humbled and schooled by the incredible (and usually) deep knowledge base that exists within the community. My world has existed in the nuts and bolts of the hardware and firmware, so I've always had need to seek the systems level and real world applications, this is where the real meat is found!

    I truly wish Outback well, as I put five and half years of my life into a lot of the Outback Products and rode with Outback through a lot of ups and downs (employee #33). I will and would continue to use their products and hope this change is for the better.

    Kind Regards,
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  • halfcrazy
    halfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    #10
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies

    Russ I wish you well in the future it has been a hard 2-3 years for Outback Gross mismanagement of funds for sure. It will be interesting to see if Alpha will really continue on with the Outback legacy or just use the technology that exists for there Communications systems. I suspect we have seen the last of the new stuff from them but time will tell they appear to like to use equipment that is already designed?
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  • PhilS
    PhilS Solar Expert Posts: 370 ✭✭✭
    #11
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies

    Thank you for posting the details, Russ. And an "official" welcome, tho you've been silently visiting.

    Hope to see some more posts!

    Phil
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  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭✭
    #12
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies
    PhilS wrote: »
    Thank you for posting the details, Russ. And an "official" welcome, tho you've been silently visiting.

    Phil

    What !?! You've been spying on us ??? !!! ???!?!??!

    Hi Russ :D Good to see you here.

    boB
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  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    #13
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies

    Half Crazy, Phil, and boB - thanks for the welcome. I look forward to keeping up with the RE world and continuing to learn. This forum is one way of doing that!

    boB, say, "Howdy" to the Mrs. from Christy and I! :D
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  • JESSICA
    JESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289 ✭✭
    #14
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies
    push'n roll wrote: »
    Hi all,

    ...
    Tech support is untouched and will be just fine. I know they take pride in providing technical services and will always give the best effort to supporting the products. They're good people....

    I'm looking forward to other opportunities to continue in RE. I was with Trace
    I truly wish Outback well, as I put five and half years of my life into a lot of the Outback Products and rode with Outback through a lot of ups and downs (employee #33). I will and would continue to use their products and hope this change is for the better.

    Kind Regards,

    Hi:

    I added OB inverters to my "wish list" a long time ago. (I have not bought one only because I don't have the money).
    Would it be reasonable to expect lower prices now? Just dreaming?

    Thanks.
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  • tallgirl
    tallgirl Solar Expert Posts: 413 ✭✭
    #15
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies
    JESSICA wrote: »
    Hi:

    I added OB inverters to my "wish list" a long time ago. (I have not bought one only because I don't have the money).
    Would it be reasonable to expect lower prices now? Just dreaming?

    Thanks.

    Depends on where pricing was and why it was there.

    I thought their inverters were very reasonably priced, considering they are rock solid. I've looked at Brand S, T and X and I love me some OutBack.
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  • halfcrazy
    halfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    #16
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies

    I to would have to say the Outback stuff is fairly reasonably priced
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  • JESSICA
    JESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289 ✭✭
    #17
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies
    halfcrazy wrote: »
    I to would have to say the Outback stuff is fairly reasonably priced

    Controllers, yes. Inverters, I don't think so.
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  • tallgirl
    tallgirl Solar Expert Posts: 413 ✭✭
    #18
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies
    JESSICA wrote: »
    Controllers, yes. Inverters, I don't think so.

    Okay, compared to what gear and why?

    The only thing I hate about OutBack inverters is that the pricing on the smaller units is close to that of the larger units, which makes me wonder about the pricing / cost structure ...
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  • halfcrazy
    halfcrazy Solar Expert Posts: 720 ✭✭✭
    #19
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies
    tallgirl wrote: »
    Okay, compared to what gear and why?

    The only thing I hate about OutBack inverters is that the pricing on the smaller units is close to that of the larger units, which makes me wonder about the pricing / cost structure ...

    I suspect this to be because they are the same units just one is vented thus more powerful so the build cost is the same.
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  • JESSICA
    JESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289 ✭✭
    #20
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies
    tallgirl wrote: »
    Okay, compared to what gear and why?

    You are right: Outback prices are comparable to other professional stuff.
    Nevertheles, if guys like AIMS can manufacture a 5000 watts inverter that sells for $450, it seems, at least to me, that $2k for a 2,500 watts OB inverter is just a little too much.
    The "loaner" I have talked about in other posts, is a 10 year old AIMS, and works superbly.
    These gadgets are like "natural" and "organic" food: Very expensive only because they are marketed for special people like us, who are willing to pay big bucks because we are somewhat crazy.
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  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭✭
    #21
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies
    JESSICA wrote: »
    You are right: Outback prices are comparable to other professional stuff.
    Nevertheles, if guys like AIMS can manufacture a 5000 watts inverter that sells for $450, it seems, at least to me, that $2k for a 2,500 watts OB inverter is just a little too much.
    The "loaner" I have talked about in other posts, is a 10 year old AIMS, and works superbly.
    These gadgets are like "natural" and "organic" food: Very expensive only because they are marketed for special people like us, who are willing to pay big bucks because we are somewhat crazy.

    I'm not positive, but I don't think the 5kW AIMS inverter is sinewave, has a built in charger, is ETL or UL listed, or has a 24V or 48V version, does it ? Can it be hooked up to meet NEC code ? Can it start a generator ?

    If you are in a small cabin, for a weekend once in a while, then an inverter like the AIMS unit is probably just fine. If one is in a serious off-grid 24/7 situation, then that's where the more expensive inverters are essential.
    To put it this way, how many times would you have to buy a $450 inverter before it adds up to one $2K inverter, not to mention the down time.

    Not that an expensive inverter doesn't break now and then, of course. Normally quite less than a more rugged inverter though.

    just my 3 cents.
    boB
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  • JESSICA
    JESSICA Solar Expert Posts: 289 ✭✭
    #22
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies
    boB wrote: »
    I'm not positive, but I don't think the 5kW AIMS inverter is sinewave, has a built in charger, is ETL or UL listed, or has a 24V or 48V version, does it ? Can it be hooked up to meet NEC code ? Can it start a generator ?

    If you are in a small cabin, for a weekend once in a while, then an inverter like the AIMS unit is probably just fine. If one is in a serious off-grid 24/7 situation, then that's where the more expensive inverters are essential.
    To put it this way, how many times would you have to buy a $450 inverter before it adds up to one $2K inverter, not to mention the down time.

    Not that an expensive inverter doesn't break now and then, of course. Normally quite less than a more rugged inverter though.

    just my 3 cents.
    boB

    Everything you said is true, (Except: AIMS do come in 24 volts version) and I fully agree.
    BUT: Charger, UL listing and sine waves does not justify a $1,500 premium.
    Again, I do admit OB products are great (That's the reason I am saving to buy an FX inverter, and that my Controller is a mx60). My point is that this products (and Xantrex, and Sunny Boys, etc.) are too expensive, mainly because we are willing to pay the higher price. In Capitalism 001 I learned it is just a matter of "offer and demmand".
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #23
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies

    The reason why lower-power inverters cost nearly as much as a higher-power unit from the same manufacturer is because most of the components are identical. Those that are different to facilitate the higher output do not make up the majority cost of the unit.

    Keep in mind that costs include company overhead as well as identical cases, displays, controls, et cetera.
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  • tallgirl
    tallgirl Solar Expert Posts: 413 ✭✭
    #24
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies
    JESSICA wrote: »
    You are right: Outback prices are comparable to other professional stuff.
    Nevertheles, if guys like AIMS can manufacture a 5000 watts inverter that sells for $450, it seems, at least to me, that $2k for a 2,500 watts OB inverter is just a little too much.
    The "loaner" I have talked about in other posts, is a 10 year old AIMS, and works superbly.
    These gadgets are like "natural" and "organic" food: Very expensive only because they are marketed for special people like us, who are willing to pay big bucks because we are somewhat crazy.

    Jessica,

    I've bought, own still, and use many of the very high output, very low cost inverters, as well as own, spec, etc. the more expensive kit.

    The "correct" inverter depends on your actual needs, as well as the capabilities of the different products. For off-grid LIGHTING -- no motors, no electronics, just lights -- a modified sine wave inverter may well be what you need. Most of the very high output, very low cost, inverters are modified sine wave (typically a 3 step square wave). Anything else -- get a sine wave inverter from OutBack or others.

    Those cheaper inverters WILL NOT run at 100% of rated output, and they often won't even produce 100% of rated output. I've had both of my inverters to well over their "continuous" rated output. They start big motors, they've been run 24/7 for days on end (I was boycotting the electric company one spring), and so on.

    My other inverters? They die, then I buy more. They are light enough to toss in the trunk, and cheap enough that if they get stolen I don't care as much. I don't care about UL / ETL / NEC or anyone else because they aren't being installed in a permanent location.
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  • Windsun
    Windsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    #25
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies
    JESSICA wrote: »
    You are right: Outback prices are comparable to other professional stuff.
    Nevertheles, if guys like AIMS can manufacture a 5000 watts inverter that sells for $450, it seems, at least to me, that $2k for a 2,500 watts OB inverter is just a little too much.
    The "loaner" I have talked about in other posts, is a 10 year old AIMS, and works superbly.
    These gadgets are like "natural" and "organic" food: Very expensive only because they are marketed for special people like us, who are willing to pay big bucks because we are somewhat crazy.

    Does the AIMS have a built in 3-stage battery charger?
    Is the AIMS a true sine wave inverter?
    Does the AIMS have computer networking capabilty?
    Will the AIMS take a 200% overload?

    If not then you are comparing apples and oranges.
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  • lorelec
    lorelec Solar Expert Posts: 200 ✭✭
    #26
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies

    Apples to oranges is exactly what this is. I use an old Exide 2000W MSW inverter to power my whole house (which, admittedly, is a pretty light load)...this is basically a knockoff of the Trace 2512 (even looks similar), going on 20 years old and still performs flawlessly. The only load I've found that won't work on it (i.e. burns it up) is my cordless drill charger, and some test equipment has issues with the noise. Everything else (sat modem, computers, lights, tools, radio, other electronics...) works just fine on it.

    Now, considering that the 2512 sold for about 50 cents per watt in the mid-90's, and that you can get a more efficient TSW inverter with all the bells and whistles today for about the same cost per watt...I don't think that's a bad deal at all. Also, virtually no RE products were UL/ETL/TUV/XYZ listed before the early 00's. "Underwriters" is exactly what these agencies are...primarily in existence to serve the insurance industry, which latches on to everything and anything once it becomes mainstream and lucrative.

    Oh, and the Exide does have 3-stage battery charging and can handle a 200% surge.

    Marc
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    #27
    Re: Outback sold to Alpha Technologies

    jessica,
    i know what you are generally thinking on these lines and to a point your argument may seem valid to you, but to draw a parallel you should think of it in terms like being able to get from point a to point b via a go cart as opposed to doing it in a car. of note is that one is approved for the street and one isn't, one will last many years and one may not, one can handle something extra in the trunk while the other has no trunk and it could easily be dropped to the road while handling it, aka failure, etc. sine wave does add some cost to it and ul or other certifications do too. the cheaper one may fit the bill, but for known endurance and quality it is not unthinkable the better ones cost more. now name brand versus generic is also a different scenario that each consumer makes their mind up about.
    if i remember correctly you had bad luck with one of the better inverters and i don't believe anybody truly found out why you were an exception. as such using my parallel, it is not the rule that a go cart, even if a deluxe model, be compared to a car, even if bad for some unknown reason. (noting car recalls that don't happen with go carts:roll:)
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