New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

GreenPowerManiac
GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
I've got my new 16 - 72 watt solar panels in place to make a grand total of 33 panels. 4 of them are on the backup bank. 29 x 72 watts is just over 2kw. The thing is, the charge controller (Morningstar TS-60) is not showing any amperage from the array. Voltage goes from 15.5v no load (with the inverter off) to hover around 12.73 volts when in use. Is this normal ? My amp meter only works with A/C. 15 - 12v deep cycle batts in parallel. Am I missing something ? I'm thinking maybe a bad connection between solar panels. Any other comments or ideas ?
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Comments

  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    I'm not exactly clear on your set up, but it sounds like you have an open between the PV and the controller, or the controller is not running right. Disconnect the PV from the controller. Do you have voltage? Connect it directly to the batteries and see what the battery voltage does. (Be careful with arcing around the batteries)


    You may have a blocking diode in the wrong place or in the wrong direction.
    How are your panels wired? Series, parallel, series/parallel?

    Tony
  • john p
    john p Solar Expert Posts: 814 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    My amp meter only works with A/C. 15 - 12v deep cycle batts in parallel. You saying the ampmeter you using only reads AC? if yes ?Where you taking the the amp reading?

    The controller you using is only rated at 60a You say you have 15x 15v batteries in parallel? if so then you are way beyond the controllers capability of 60a as 60x12v =720w.. You say you have a solar panel array of a "just over 2kw" at 12 v thats 166 amps.:grr
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    Good point JohnP.

    Perhaps GPM, you could post in detail how your system is configured. Something is not computing so to speak.

    Tony
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    Actually, guys, he said the charge controller isn't displaying any Amperage. And he can't check for himself because his meter won't do DC Amps.

    It is unlikely that the battery bank is drawing zero current, so yes there must be a problem in panel wiring.
    For one thing, a single 60 Amp controller isn't going to handle 2000 Watts of panel on a 12V system: you're wasting panel.
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    On the order of looking at simple things first,, is it possible that the controller is fried due to WAY TOO MUCH current?,, (Nearly 3 times rate possibly) Fuses on the input or out put side? Does the controller display any information?

    Tony
  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    OK. Everything is wired in parallel. The controller works fine with the voltage. It climbs early when the sun starts getting brighter on them. Creeps up to around 15.5 volts during the day. Above 13.8v the diversion load kicks in and runs a small heater. It's wired per instructions. This controller I believe has over current protection and errors out, shuts down when overloaded.


    Tony,
    When you mean "Open" do you mean that one or more wires is not making the connection or shorted out ?
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    As you suggest, you have the array wired in parallel, leaving ~ 160 amp potential on a 60 amp controller. Wouldn't that suggest that the "overload" protection might be shutting it down,, due to an,,,overload? Or am I missing something here?

    What I mean by an "open" is an open circuit, as though a switch were opened. Due possibly to bad wire connection(s) open fuse etc.

    Tony
  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    Odd. The controller seems to be working fine until the inverter is drawing a load, then sucks the life out of the bank.

    There's no evidence of a malfunctioning controller. I'll check the wiring tomorrow. Somehow, I believe each panel is not capable of more than 1-2 amps per, indicating a adequate sized array.

    The batts are always taking a charge like they're constantly hungry for power....
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...
    Odd. The controller seems to be working fine until the inverter is drawing a load, then sucks the life out of the bank.

    There's no evidence of a malfunctioning controller. I'll check the wiring tomorrow. Somehow, I believe each panel is not capable of more than 1-2 amps per, indicating a adequate sized array.

    The batts are always taking a charge like they're constantly hungry for power....

    And if the charge controller has 2kW of panel behind it and the batteries will take whatever you can give them ... the charge controller probably is shutting down from overload.

    Try disconnecting about half your panels - knock the array down to 1kW - and see what happens.
    Also check those batteries. Look out for one with suspiciously low Voltage.
    How much do you have in Amp/hrs? 60 Amps could do 1200 Amp/hrs.
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    This begs the real question. Why do we have such a large array, large battery bank and such a small controller?

    A quick view of the MS support suggests the controller should have a maximum 12 volt array of ~1kw.

    Tony
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...
    icarus wrote: »
    A quick view of the MS support suggests the controller should have a maximum 12 volt array of ~1kw.

    Tony

    Hmmm, that sounds familiar for some reason. :p
  • Kamala
    Kamala Solar Expert Posts: 452 ✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    GPM,

    Are your panels commercially manufactured of home built?

    K
  • solarvic
    solarvic Solar Expert Posts: 1,071 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    I've got my new 16 - 72 watt solar panels in place to make a grand total of 33 panels. 4 of them are on the backup bank. 29 x 72 watts is just over 2kw. The thing is, the charge controller (Morningstar TS-60) is not showing any amperage from the array. Voltage goes from 15.5v no load (with the inverter off) to hover around 12.73 volts when in use. Is this normal ? My amp meter only works with A/C. 15 - 12v deep cycle batts in parallel. Am I missing something ? I'm thinking maybe a bad connection between solar panels. Any other comments or ideas ?

    MMaybe the homemade solar modules didn,t turn out as well as you planed.!!! S:Dlarvic
  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    1800 amp/hours for 15 deep cycle batts. 120 a/h each.

    The panels are just fine and are custom built.

    Coot,

    Things where acting this way before adding 16 more panels.
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    "The panels are just fine and are custom built."

    The chances for an "open" just went up exponentially!

    Tony
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...
    1800 amp/hours for 15 deep cycle batts. 120 a/h each.

    Which would want at least 90 Amps of current for charging. That isn't going to flow through a 60 Amp charge controller even if everything is working. Add to that the 2kW of panels' current potential and you see the set up simply can't work.
    The panels are just fine and are custom built.

    I'm not doubting they work, because I know you put care into what you build. But the specs are just so far off that you may have fried that brand new controller. :cry: You're going to have to do the tedious diagnostic thing; disconnect every component and test one at a time. Leave anything that seems suspect out of the wiring, and hook it up with less panel and less battery. Like 1/3 of the batteries and 1/2 of the panels.

    Things where acting this way before adding 16 more panels.
    I don't want to sound mean here, but if it wasn't working before adding more of anything to it isn't good.

    Scale back and try again. I think you can do it. :D
  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    Marc,

    Did some diagnostics on the rooftop today (before it started raining). The new ones are working fine and many of the older ones had some corrosion on the pos/neg leads for wiring (not working). Two panels I couldn't get to work and will have to take them down for maintenance. Again, the electrical leads(Bolts in my case) have some rust and corrosion and I'll have to replace them with something less corrosive.

    One question came to mind. Is it possible to stack charge controllers ?
    I have a Morningstar TS-45 on the backup bank and a spare 20amp Sunsaver controller for the remaining 4 - 72 watt panels.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...
    Marc,

    Did some diagnostics on the rooftop today (before it started raining). The new ones are working fine and many of the older ones had some corrosion on the pos/neg leads for wiring (not working). Two panels I couldn't get to work and will have to take them down for maintenance. Again, the electrical leads(Bolts in my case) have some rust and corrosion and I'll have to replace them with something less corrosive.

    One question came to mind. Is it possible to stack charge controllers ?
    I have a Morningstar TS-45 on the backup bank and a spare 20amp Sunsaver controller for the remaining 4 - 72 watt panels.

    If by "stack" you mean have two (or more) each with its own separate array charging the same battery bank the answer is "yes". This is as opposed to stacking inverters where both the input and output is "shared".
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    "One question came to mind. Is it possible to stack charge controllers ?
    I have a Morningstar TS-45 on the backup bank and a spare 20amp Sunsaver controller for the remaining 4 - 72 watt panels."

    yes you can stack the controllers, but do not share the pvs to 2 separate controllers and back down to a common battery bank. give each controller their own dedicated pvs. see that they do come in handy as spare controllers.:D
  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    Now I'm confused.

    This is how I translated:

    Yes, I can stack two separate controllers with one isolated line each. BOTH lines from the controller to ONE COMMON BANK. True or False ?
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    There's a lot of this stuff that could be explained much faster with pictures! :p

    I believe the answer to your question is "yes".

    I'll try to 'draw' a picture with words.

    ARRAY '1"
    > CC '1" --->
    ...............................................One and only Battery Bank ----> one and only Inverter
    ARRAY '2"
    > CC '2" --->

    Outputs of both charge controllers connect to the same battery bank. The important thing is to not share panels between the controllers.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    common battery bank is fine, but pvs should not be common to both controllers.
  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    Boy oh Boy, what a weekend. Forums where down and couldn't answer. Well....Here's what I found.......


    Two panels not working. Several older panels had corroded Pos/Neg Posts.

    There where a few unexpected flaws in the design. Totally forgot about the electrolysis portion and metal posts. Most of the Post nuts where loose. This was an easy fix.

    The other two panels I had to take apart (the covers came off). One panel needed new posts. Easy fix. The other one I had to Ohm trace the broken cells, which where two of them I couldn't see easily. The fix came with a couple pieces of (bridge) tabbing wire soldered to complete the circuit. Remember awhile ago I tried the tabbing wire only soldering about an inch to the neg side ? Well, I found the flaw in that design here. In case of a cracked cell, tabbing wire helps bridge the gaps and keep them running until major problems happen. My new panels all have pre-tabbed wires. Major time saver, if you ask me.

    It's been cloudy/rainy the past several days so I could do repairs. I disconnected the TS-45 controller and hooked up my backup bank to a 20amp SunSaver controller with 4 panels and is working fine now.

    Marc,
    Today I'll try to run separate wiring to the new portion of the array and hookup to the TS-45 controller. So I'll have 3 controllers total. Without the Sun being out, I can see the difference in power output, however, the TS-60 controller still doesn't say any amp output on the display. Once in awhile it'll say 3-4 amps and then gone. Anyhow, I should get to that wiring job now...... Thanks for all the suggestions....
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  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    "There where a few unexpected flaws in the design. Totally forgot about the electrolysis portion and metal posts. Most of the Post nuts where loose. This was an easy fix.

    The other two panels I had to take apart (the covers came off). One panel needed new posts. Easy fix. The other one I had to Ohm trace the broken cells, which where two of them I couldn't see easily. The fix came with a couple pieces of (bridge) tabbing wire soldered to complete the circuit. Remember awhile ago I tried the tabbing wire only soldering about an inch to the neg side ? Well, I found the flaw in that design here. In case of a cracked cell, tabbing wire helps bridge the gaps and keep them running until major problems happen. My new panels all have pre-tabbed wires. Major time saver, if you ask me."

    Remember my comment about an "OPEN"?

    Good luck with your problem,

    Tony
  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    Aren't you glad it's my problem, Tony ?

    Just got done wiring up the 2nd controller for the Array.

    Everything is on a separate circuit except the end results are charging the ONE bank.

    Must say that it looks really good. At about 13.7 volts now on a beautiful sunny day. The diversion loads are about to come on and I'm powering my Solar Water heating system and a few other 120v circuits from my transfer switch load center.

    One other question that comes up is: Overnight, when the voltage dips, what's the typical voltage expected for a normal array ? 12.2, 12.5 ? The highest possible ?
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    "One other question that comes up is: Overnight, when the voltage dips, what's the typical voltage expected for a normal array ? 12.2, 12.5 ? The highest possible ?"

    that depends on whether you have loads on it or not. for no loads after at least about 3hrs or so the highest would be the at rest voltage for a charged battery. i get roughly 12.8v on my sunxtender anymore and i used to get about 12.9v, but hey it's 7 years old this year. fla type batteries are usually lower in voltage than agm types so maybe 12.6 to 12.7v i would think for a full charge at resting voltage.

    loads on any battery will draw down on the voltage and the higher the load the lower the voltage and is why it should be done without loads, or charge source too, for a few hours. check with your battery manufacturer for specifics on your battery.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    The normal Voltage for a solar array at night is zero Volts! :p
    (Sorry; couldn't resist.)
    Battery bank Voltage, fully charged and with no loads - the "at rest" Voltage - would be 12.75 ideally. 12.5 would be 'good'.

    I have to ask: what are these diversion loads? Normally solar power, unlike wind or hydro, has no diversion loads. (Except in cases of utilizing 'extra' PV harvest when FLOAT is reached.)

    And normally the charging Voltage on a "12V" system is 14.2-14.4 (ABSORB).

    Not to be mean, but this is an example of why home-made solar panels aren't recommended if you really need to count on the power. :roll:
  • GreenPowerManiac
    GreenPowerManiac Solar Expert Posts: 453 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    Yes, you do mean to be mean, Marc !

    Two simple diversion loads: One is a heater/cooler D/C unit. 65 watts.
    The other are two CPU fans hooked up and positioned in front of the heater/cooler to draw out the heat throughout the battery bank.

    Each controller, the TS-60 & 45 both have built in Heat sinks to disperse heavy loads.

    And I'm not counting on the power 24/7/365. Just a hobby so far. Learning all the time.....I'll have to disconnect the controllers to set the dip switches for 14.4 volts though....
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  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    cool it down and do not make it anything personal here. i don't see how marc was being mean gpm as things like this going wrong is an argument against going diy. do not think that his opinion of diy is something personal against you, but is just his opinion on going diy.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: New Solar Array in Place, Just not the Results I expected...

    Neil; I'm pretty sure GPM was joking. That's the way I took it. :cool:

    GMP;
    I'd leave the loads off until you know the batteries are up to full, then see what you can run with them. But yes, once charged you've got to put power somewhere to draw the batteries down so you can see if they charge up again! :D