Large off grid house - no solar currently

Hello, longtime lurker (this forum was invaluable when adding small solar/batteries to my living quarters horse trailer) with questions about a completely off-grid "cabin" in AZ.

I recently inherited a house from my grandparents in the mountains of northern AZ. House is huge (4000 sf), built in the mid 90s, in a small (mostly weekender) community with no grid power but regular trucked-in propane service. They built the house for weekend living, and it has NO solar, just an ancient 3000w generator they used constantly when at the house along with the propane.

I live 300 miles away and while it would be great to have a nice weekend place, job/family/money responsibilities make keeping it unrealistic.

My question is this:

I'd like to make the house "functional" for resale, and don't have an extra 50K to pump into it for solar (I'd guess for a house this size more like 100K is the ballpark I'd need).

However, I'd like to make it attractive to someone who might want to put the solar money into it themselves, but not force them to pony up massive $ the day they buy it. I'd like to purchase a new generator, some batteries so that the generator doesn't have to run all night while sleeping, and a charger/inverter. I'd like to keep my costs at around/under 8K if possible. I am an excellent craigslist scrounger for generators/etc. Remember, I don't expect any solar at this point. Should I be looking at a generac-type backup generator? Two Honda EUs linked together running off the propane? 16 trojan batteries? More? Less? Would a couple of 200W solar panels help top off the batteries during the week when no one is there, or is that pointless?

Like I said, the house isn't too old, so it has decent windows, CFLs everywhere it can, a propane hookup for the fridge (which died a couple years ago), and plenty of insulation. Some houses in the area have a few small solar panels (not enough for full-time usage), but its pretty much generators/batteries up there.

I don't want to go too far down the road as this project will become someone else's responsibility shortly, but I'd like it to be a decent system for 2 weekends/month for now. The realtor said it would be a *much* harder sell if the buyer has to imagine doing all the light use generator/battery work themselves.

Suggestions? Comments? Flames? Thanks! --jen

Comments

  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    IMHO sell it as is, where is. My guess is that you would be spending dollars to chase dimes. Any PV system would have to take into account the realistic loading, and that is very individualistic. For example, just deciding to use a Propane fridge rather than a compressor fridge changes the PV system by about 1kwh/day,, or ~500 watts of PV and associated batteries.

    Additionally, any off grid system, , with it's batteries they have a finite life span, so spending $X on a system, only to have 1/2 the value drain away due to time between now and any sale, adding to any battery mismanagement due to absence, inexperience etc, and the costs get pretty great.

    I would advertise it for what it is, and suggest that for $X one could be 100% solar or what ever.

    Tony

    A reasonable PV system for a "normal" house might need say 4 kwh/day of power. Such a system might be in the range of 2k. costing ~$8/watt or $16,000 depending on nuance. Some tax credit might be available, but no utility rebates.

    PS I also wouldn't do anything about the generator either. Generator choices are very much tied to other Pv choices, so that any genny you might buy might prove to be wrong. Clean the place up, make it look nice and hope for the best.
  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    Yeah, I considered just selling it as it sits, but the realtor was really against it. He said a tiny system meant for weekend living would mean a difference between 30 days to sell at $300-ish, versus 6 months or longer to sell at $225 (or less as the market continues to decline). He's the only agent who specializes/lives in the area, so he seems to know what he is doing. I don't expect the system I put in place to be perfect for everyone, just to be enough to get them by as a weekender over the summer until they figure out their own needs.

    Also, the existing loan on the place is $230K, so the money difference is important.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    i would say buy a new inverter generator (run quieter and more efficiently) as you need to have power to see inside and show it off and can double for weekend uses, but i agree that the rest should be up to the new owners on how they wish to approach things. do not buy another refrigerator either for you don't know how the next owners may wish to proceed with it and is not a big deal as many homes for sale don't have one in it. it is a hard sell for an off grid home so try to keep your costs down to offer the best possible price for a prospective new owner. heck, if it were up to the real estate agent he'd have you run utility power to it too to increase the saleability of the house. it is what it is and has to go on its own merits as most likely you will not get back out what you put into it plus the house value.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    Does the existing genset still run OK?

    If so, you might look into just adding a smallish battery bank and a small inverter with good (i.e., low) standby losses that would have enough power to run the few items over night.

    It does not have to be much--more of an example of what could be done.

    Depending on how do-it-yourself you are and the home's construction, it could be as little as placing a Inverter 120 VAC outlet in each room + a CFL lamp (bathroom, bed room, living room, etc.). A few 13 watt CFL's and an outlet for use with a small TV/Radio/Laptop charger would not take a very large setup. And, you could add a simple automatic transfer switch so that the outlets would switch to genset power when it is running.

    If you where going to keep the home, I would add a small solar panel to keep the battery bank charged when nobody is home (and the genset is not running). I would not bother to install a large array--just enough to trickle charge the battery bank.

    All of this could be done for a $1,000 +/- ...

    But, as Tony says, solar / energy usage is so personal--that it would be unlikely that anyone would keep the system as you installed it.

    It is just more of a question will something like this help sell the home or not... A 4,000 square foot home with a 300 watt inverter to provide a few night time lights may not really make much of an impression.

    Genset wise--if the current one is DOA--replacing with a used RV unit may be a good investment.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    The real estate person probably has some good suggestions--but they also want the quick and easy sale--even if it costs you out of pocket money.

    If the genset is DOA and is/was too small for the home given its current size--I would look at installing a new genset for the size of the home. They are not that expensive and will be one less "concern" for any buyers.

    The real costs for gensets is the long term fuel usage. And, in reality, that is not your concern at this time. Gensets have operating ranges where they are fairly fuel efficient (typically in the 50-100% rated load range)... and when you get down in to the 25% or less of rated load, they are horrible (basically, the average genset uses ~50% of rated gallons per hour for any electric loads below 50% of rating).

    In hot weather, using the A/C and other loads (well pump for irrigation, etc.)--your home would probably be around 50% or higher loading. However, for example, during winter with just lights, fridge, TV, etc., your loads will probably average under 10% of the genset's output.

    There are good ways to make things better--the simplest is a Hybrid generator system. Use batteries to power the loads 18 hours a day, and run the genset to recharge the batteries/operate large loads (A/C, well pump, cooking, cleaning, etc.) for 6 hours per day. Such a system could even add solar PV array to the battery bank at a later date very easily.

    However--it will not be cheap, and ideally be sized to the loads of the people living there--which you do not know...

    ---Keep it Simple for now unless you have information/needs that change the requirements.

    I would only use the Honda euX000i or any "portable" genset for your own use/while fixing the place up for sale... I would tend to believe that buyers would want to flick on a light switch (and maybe press the "go button" on the genset) when looking at the home. Unless you get lucky and have buyers that will want to take on an electrification project (few and far between probably for a 4,000 sqft home).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    1) best thing is to get the existing genset serviced, and prolong it's life. Maybe add a small "auto throttle" inverter type portable that can run the weekend on 2 gallons. Use that unless you are cooking and need to fire up the "big dog".

    Our host's site, has a "backup system" you could configure to run off the generator, and add a solar panel to it, batteries NOT included.
    http://store.solar-electric.com/mnbe-b-175-gen.html about $2K

    Other options:
    Here's a site with a couple of "packaged systems"
    http://sunelec.com/index.php?main_page=off_grid_systems Starting around $8K. That's not a SMALL amount.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    bill's suggestion of batteries and an inverter charger are good, but here too may be individualized as a pv system would be. the depth of needs are individualized and not determined by the house size and so you may over or under size such a battery back up system. this option is something to make the prospective new home owner aware of though.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    Flames?
    Well, yes I suppose you could burn it down and collect the insurance. We frown on that sort of thing, though. :p

    What sort of electrical wiring is extent? If there's just a lighting circuit then perhaps a small inverter/battery bank to run that recharged by the generator would be practical. Lights at night without gen power is highly desirable. This might be worth the investment and could be done with a relatively inexpensive inverter - less that 1 kW.

    If the gen is not dependable then a small, sure-fire unit - even used - would be worthwhile. Prospective buyers would want to see that it starts right up and supplies at least some power. That they could have lights at night without running it would also be a bonus.

    Our two real estate agent clients say solar power is largely a wash in grid areas: half the buyers think it's a bonus and half think it's dangerous. In off grid areas they have all come to expect some form of steady electric supply, even only for lighting.

    I'd stay away from the expense of putting up panels, though.
  • arkieoscar
    arkieoscar Solar Expert Posts: 101 ✭✭
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    I agree with your Realtor. It would be tough to have to start a gen. to turn on a light to show the house. I would call our sponsor and have them put together a system with a battery, inverter and gen. (quiet) with an autostart tied to battery voltage and the agent can advertise as ready for solar. Take a walk around the house and figure some loads that are most important and size the system for them. Maybe a cheaper 2kw inverter/charger, 500 ah, 24v battery and a 10kw stand by generator. I'm trying to stay within your $8,000 budget and still have power for sale and temp. living. It may take someone with more than plug and play experience to make the generator do what you want to keep the batteries up.
  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    Thanks for the suggestions. Luckily, the HOA pumps the water for us, so no power is consumed by a well pump. Cooling is via an evaporative cooler, so not as much draw as central AC. But it is still a large house by off-grid standards.

    You're right, I won't have to pay for the fuel costs, the prospective buyer will, so getting the most efficient generator isn't my priority. However, everyone I talk to seems to gush over the Honda EUs, so parking one of those in place of the old tired generator seems like a good return on investment from a sales standpoint.

    I'm assuming (incorrectly, I'm sure) that buyers in the area know enough to be conservative with the power. They won't be, but they'll convince themselves that they will conserve when at the house. I don't really care if they're lying to themselves, as long as they buy the house.

    Is there a way to hook up the Honda quiet generators to start up to power the charger for the batteries automatically? I know that a single 3000W EU isn't enough power for a house this size for full time living, but for charging up the batteries so the realtor doesn't have to start up the noisy generator to show the place seems like a good tradeoff. Looks like Xantrex makes an automatic generator starter, but it seems to be mostly compatible with built-in RV generators.

    Thanks again for all the advice!
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    I am not sure it is practical to hook up an eu3000i for autostart... We looked into it before here and really did not find anything helpful.

    A good quality propane RV type (or even used RV) genset is probably your best bank for the buck right now.

    If you were living there--you would probably end up with several gensets. One smaller one for light loads--and a larger one for when everything is turned on.

    For a fixed home installation, the small Honda eu's are not really a great choice. A fixed prime mover genset is--but the problem is I am not sure you can find a good ones that are are much less than 10kW -- which makes them tremendous fuel hogs if you have smaller electrical needs.

    The little Hondas will last maybe 2-3,000 hours... A good fixed genset should last 10,000 hours or more. Heavy duty ones -- How long (30,000 hours?).

    If you are running a genset 24 hours a day x 365 days a year--you are looking at 8,000 hours a year... A hybrid system makes much more sense in that case.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently
    jen10001 wrote: »
    Yeah, I considered just selling it as it sits, but the realtor was really against it. He said a tiny system meant for weekend living would mean a difference between 30 days to sell at $300-ish, versus 6 months or longer to sell at $225 (or less as the market continues to decline). He's the only agent who specializes/lives in the area, so he seems to know what he is doing. I don't expect the system I put in place to be perfect for everyone, just to be enough to get them by as a weekender over the summer until they figure out their own needs.

    Also, the existing loan on the place is $230K, so the money difference is important.


    If you are convinced of the $75k difference, then why the question. In fact, I suspect you are questioning the realtors wisdom, (as I would!) All else being equal, I would
    either get the existing genny in top condition, or buy a new EU series honda. The reality is that I wouldn't see a $75k difference for the want of a $8k solar system. You can argue it every way to Sunday, but if you trust the realtors instinct then go with, if not, consider alternatives. It has always been my experience that realtors have a very hard time thinking out of the box. I really would worry about chasing good money on this.

    Just my opinion,

    Tony

    Consider also an Onan Lp genny in the 6kw range. Can be had for ~$3k out of the box set up for propane. Will use just under 1/2 gph at nearly full load. Can also be set up for auto start.
  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    How did you inherit a house with a mortgage on it? ... no one can make you be responsible for the parents mortgage

    Sounds like the best bet is do nothing, tell the bank hey come get the keys and let the estate deal with getting rid of it, there is NO benefit that you take on this responsibility since it has at best marginal equity
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    SG makes a great point, why would you spend money to lose money? If there really is negative equity, consider walking away (unless you have some great sentimental attachment, which in that case would mean you might not be selling in the first place!)

    Owing $230k on a property that is worth MAYBE $225K starts out a bad deal, and it is only likely to get worse, if the prices continue to fall. The idea of spending any money to make it easier to sell indeed feels like chasing dimes with dollars.

    Tony
  • lorelec
    lorelec Solar Expert Posts: 200 ✭✭
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    I personally would either keep the house as an investment (if you can afford to do so) or sell it as-is. And that's assuming, as Solar Guppy says, that you're not going to be making a marginal or negative profit on the place if you sell it.

    Maybe the market down there is unique, but there probably aren't too many buyers for an off-grid 4000sqft house unless there is truly something special about the property or the area. Anyone interested in a house of that size will probably have substantial electrical needs. Which means that they'll either want to invest in a large RE system, or perhaps investigate the cost and feasibility of bringing in grid power.

    If you're intent on selling, then you might try to find some comps in the area so that you can get a better idea of what to expect. Your realtor should be able to help you with that. Any bank is going to do an appraisal of the place before it sells, too.

    Marc
  • Slappy
    Slappy Solar Expert Posts: 251 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    I would be worried about the solar panels and the house sitting empty, because of theft?
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    Also, it may be difficult for a buyer to get a mortgage on the place without utility power.

    And, check the total sales costs (commission, taxes, fees, fix-up costs, prepayment on mortgage, HOA fees, etc.)... For the most part, assuming 10% costs on a sale would would be a good starting point.

    $300,000 - $30,000 in costs = $270,000
    $250,000 - $25,000 in costs = $225,000 < mortgage payout

    If the estate has other assets--you may still be better off selling the place (even at a small loss). It all depends on how the loans are setup, Arizona laws on mortgages (firsts and seconds, and whether the lender can come-back for the difference between loan/sale price, etc.) and even tax laws... (say the bank takes the loan back at $130,000---that $100,000 difference can be considered as "income" to the estate--and depending on timing, may be a taxable profit).

    Check with a good tax/estate attorney before you make any irreversible decisions.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    Getting a mortgage probably isn't going to be any easier with a battery based system either. Probably will have to be financed as a second home, with a requisite higher interest rate.

    It would take an estate lawyer to figure out what you obligations both financial and "moral" might be. I don't think that you can be forced to take a property just because you are bequeathed it, especially one that has a lien against it.

    Closing costs of 10% might be in the ball park, but if you start to include some fix up costs, and or some PV cost, it's going to go past 10% in a hurry. Sharpen your pencil and see what makes sense. What is probably not clear is how easy/quick any sale might be at any price. The promise of a quick sale at a higher price is alluring, but the reality is if you spend the ~$20k to try to get the $75k (Which in fact would be way less than $75 net/net after spending what ever to build/install some PV)and it doesn't sell for a year, you are out one more years costs including interest/principle/taxes insurance/hoa etc which could easily eat up a bunch of that potential $75

    Tony

    PS I have a friend who was within $5k of a deal on ~$270k In six months only three people even looked at it. Rural, wooded acreage. She couldn't bring herself to sell it at that price so she walked. She has now sat on the property another year with the associated costs, and now no one ever looks.

    The lesson is, a bird in the hand is not to be triffled with.

    PPS, just to follow up with Marc's (Lorec's) point. A bank appraisal might be useful and indeed required, but for any property that is unique in any way, it is at best, a WAG. (That's W aardvark G Neil lol!) What the property is worth, is exactly what someone will pay for it. I managed a sale of a unique island property a few years ago. To replace the infrastructure would have cost 3-5 mil. The deal closed for under $200k because it was a unique piece of property that had very few people who were the slightest bit interested. The price came down from ~1 million to start, after 3 years. Even at that, the new owners spent ~$500 k to upgrade the property, and then tried to sell it again, this time it isn't even generating a whisper at $200. So be careful chasing the top dollar.
  • russ
    russ Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    Sorry to any realtors reading this but İ have never dealt with one that really had my interest in mind. They can always say after the 30 days went by (along with your additional investment) Meh! What to do - the market changed.

    Over the years and after some 50 properties İ have little to no faith in realtors or their declarations.

    Talk to friends and others, make your best guess and go for it.
  • sawmill
    sawmill Solar Expert Posts: 93 ✭✭✭
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    I agree with Solar Guppy. You cannot inherit someone's mortgage. I suspect that an attempt is being made to sell this property for more than the lien in hopes of making a profit. I can't imagine an lending institution not having life insurance on the original loan.

    If 230k is owed there is nothing to inherit until this deed of trust is satisfied. Why not let the lending institution sell the property and any profit will go to the estate anyhow. All the fee's would be their responsibility.

    If this property is "under water", a proposed off grid system will be as others have said, a moot point. Just throwing good money after bad.

    Since this property can be bought for 230k, suggest to the realtor, that he buy it and if it's worth 300k his profit will exceed any commission. Another possibily is to negotiate with the lender for a reduced pay off. Then try to resell--big risk in todays market.
  • russ
    russ Solar Expert Posts: 593 ✭✭
    Re: Large off grid house - no solar currently

    İf the bank takes care of the whole thing then the real estate salesman gets no commission.

    İf he feels it won't move 'as is' then no commission.

    İf he can sucker jen10001 into putting more money into it, maybe he makes a commission. İf it still doesn't move then jen10001 is in the soup and the real estate salesman says 'what to do? İ tried my best.'