prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

mshen11
mshen11 Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭✭✭✭
in the ACS settings, we need to set the battery capacity but it can be done in increments of 100. most likely you dont have an exact multiple of 100 in amp-hrs. what is the strategy - is it better to overstate or understate your numbers?

ie - 225 amphr: 200 or 300?
250 amphr: 200 or 300?

at what capacity would you tell the prosine 200 vs 300?
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Comments

  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    I'd round UP only 25A to the next level, otherwise, round DOWN a level
    ie 250A program at 200, 280A program at 300

    You don't want over done batteries, underdone, you can always put back on the grill for another 10 minutes, overdone, you have to toss them.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    The question is: what is the difference of these different levels? Does it alter the charge rate or the absorb time or both?

    A battery can be charged at many different rates, expressed as C/# where 'C' is the Capacity @ 20hr rate (i.e. 225 Amp/hrs = C of 225) and # is a number which will give you the battery's recommended charge rate. If you check the Battery FAQS http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#Battery%20Charging you'll see that the maximum rate for most batteries is C/8. In this case 225/8 = 28 Amps.

    If you tell the charger it's a 300 A/hr battery will the charge current exceed this 28 Amps? Or will it merely lengthen the absorb time? Either runs the risk of 'boiling' the battery.

    Like Mike says: better to err on the side of caution and slightly under-charge; you can always recheck with the hydrometer and then 'add more'.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    Going back to the manual ...

    http://www.xantrex.com/web/id/241/docserve.aspx

    After reading their chart of maximum charge currents on Page 27 and this little paragraph on Page 31:

    Battery Size
    NOTE: This is an “Installer-only” configuration item. You can use one battery with a capacity of only
    50 amp hours (Ah) or a group of batteries with a combined capacity of over 2000Ah to provide DC
    power to the inverter/charger. The amount of current used to recharge the batteries will vary with the
    combined capacity of the batteries. Setting this parameter too high (larger than your batteries’ actual
    capacity) can result in damage to your batteries or cause them to produce excessive amounts of
    corrosive and explosive gasses.
    Setting this parameter too low can result in under-charged batteries, or
    excessively long charging periods. Consult with your battery supplier to determine the type and
    capacity of your batteries.


    I'd be inclined to go even lower than their recommended settings. They've got 67 Amps as the maximum charge current on a 200 Amp/hr battery. That's a C/3 rate! Maybe you should tell it the battery is 75 Amp/hrs (25 Amps max.)
  • mshen11
    mshen11 Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    well they also have a couple pages of charts... depending on what batteries you should have certain battery type settings.

    some floods are supposed to be set as agm for example.

    now im confused. i should do a much lower amp hr setting? doesnt that defeat the purpose of setting it at proper battery capacity. i should think xantrex should know not to do c/3 charge
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    I'm not a Xantrex expert and I don't understand their reasoning/application. It would be nice if setting the Amp/hr of the battery fixed a C/8 maximum charge rate and maximum Absorb time. It doesn't seem to.

    If it were me, I'd start at the lower setting and watch the battery. If it 'bubbles' and charges up properly, keep it there. If not, push the rate up to the next level. Having a battery meter (like the Trimetric) would be good for monitoring what's actually going in/out of the battery.

    In fairness to Xantrex, my Outback inverter/charger has its charge program set by AC Amps, not DC! You have to approximate the DC charge current by multiplying by 5. There is no setting for Amp/hr capacity or battery type; you have to set the Voltage levels and Absorb time yourself.
  • mshen11
    mshen11 Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    it would be much nice (butmore painful) if we can set the exact capacity (instead of 100s)... also much nicer if we can designate how many amps to push while charging.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question
    mshen11 wrote: »
    it would be much nice (butmore painful) if we can set the exact capacity (instead of 100s)... also much nicer if we can designate how many amps to push while charging.

    Fortunately flooded cells have quite a bit of tolerance to 'abuse' and you can keep an eye on what's happening inside - to a certain extent. I'd be more concerned about setting up for an AGM or gel cell - notice the Prosine Manual even warns about this? Much easier to 'fry' one of those. Gels can actually explode if charged too fast.
  • Kamala
    Kamala Solar Expert Posts: 452 ✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    mshen11,

    Which ProSine do you have? I have a ProSine 2.0 and, although I haven't yet set up or used the charger function, the manual indicates that charge current can be adjusted (as a % of C20) for all charge stages.

    http://www.visi.com/~ch3dietz/solar/20page.jpg
  • mshen11
    mshen11 Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    i have 3.0
    i believe 2.5 and 3.0 are similar but cannot be compared w/ 2.0

    i could swear 3.0 has the capability but either didnt see it or saw but was too afraid to change it. will look again this weekend to make sure.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    You made need the ACS unit to 'fine tune' the 3.0
    I had a look at the manual for that, but it's not very clear if it simply over-rides the DIP settings or allows values in between.
  • Kamala
    Kamala Solar Expert Posts: 452 ✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    I took a look at the 3.0 manual on the Xantrex website. You're right, the 2.0 is a different animal. I don't think you have the versatility that I do. :blush::D:cry:

    The revision dates on the respective manuals are 2005 for the 3.0 and 2006 for the 2.0.

    I concur with previous posts... tell the ProSine that your battery bank is smaller than it actually is. It appears that this is the only way to bring down the charge current.

    Good luck!

    Craig
  • Kamala
    Kamala Solar Expert Posts: 452 ✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question
    You made need the ACS unit to 'fine tune' the 3.0
    I had a look at the manual for that, but it's not very clear if it simply over-rides the DIP settings or allows values in between.

    I didn't take a hard look, but my sense was that the ACS was just an "extension" of the DIPs.

    K
  • mshen11
    mshen11 Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    for 3.0, ACS overrides the DIP switches

    i thought 3.0 is suppose to be 'better' than 2.0 :(
  • mshen11
    mshen11 Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    more prosine 3.0 questions (12V version)

    * i got it running this weekend and told the inverter i have a 220amp-hr bank. i plug in the shoreline to charge and it was pretty much at around 14.3V and 12A. i also told the breaker was at 15A AC which in theory should pump up to 90A per hour

    when it displays 12A... does it mean 12A per hour? is it not going higher because it is trying to follow the C/20 rule?
  • Kamala
    Kamala Solar Expert Posts: 452 ✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question
    mshen11 wrote: »
    ... when it displays 12A... does it mean 12A per hour? is it not going higher because it is trying to follow the C/20 rule?

    12A is the instantaneous current flowing through the battery. Notice that I said through and not into the battery. That current does the work of reversing the chemical reaction that allows the battery to supply electricity. If 12A flow through the battery for one hour then you can say that the battery has been recharged with 12 AH. For 2 hours, 24AH. This is neglecting efficiency losses.

    The maximum charge current of the ProSine 3.0 into a 12V bank is 120A. As I am sure you understand, this maximum is adjusted downward according to bank and breaker size. One reason you see a lower than max charge rate may be because the charger is in absorption stage. In this stage the voltage is held constant and the current is decreased over time before going into float. Currents approaching max will only be seen in the bulk stage.

    Craig
  • mshen11
    mshen11 Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    i see.. how does the charger know when to do bulk or absorption? it seems to kick into 12A/14.3V right away. the battery at that time is 11.x V

    will i ever see more than 12A going through in my given configuration - if so, how do i force that scenerio?
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question
    mshen11 wrote: »
    i see.. how does the charger know when to do bulk or absorption? it seems to kick into 12A/14.3V right away. the battery at that time is 11.x V

    will i ever see more than 12A going through in my given configuration - if so, how do i force that scenerio?

    Chargers have a programmed pattern: Bulk, Absorb, Float. If it detects the battery Voltage is below a certain level, it starts Bulk. Once it rises to another preset level it goes to Absorb. After it has absorbed for a determined length of time, it switches to and tries to maintain Float until the battery level drops below the Bulk trigger setting.

    You will see more than 12 Amps flowing if the battery is low enough state of charge to require it & your charging circuitry is capable of supplying more.

    To trigger higher amperage, you'd need to be able to set the charger output settings and change the maximum Amps (if this is indeed limiting the output). I think your unit is one that has you set the Amp/hr rating of the battery? Increasing that setting should increase the maximum output (as a larger battery bank requires a higher current for proper charging).
  • mshen11
    mshen11 Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    [You will see more than 12 Amps flowing if the battery is low enough state of charge to require it & your charging circuitry is capable of supplying more.]

    thats the confusing part. i thought that is the case. i guess 11.0 or 10.0 on the battery is not "low" enough? the prosine when it starts up complains "low battery".

    [I think your unit is one that has you set the Amp/hr rating of the battery? Increasing that setting should increase the maximum output (as a larger battery bank requires a higher current for proper charging). ]

    correct that is why i was asking if it was following the C/20 rule. i told the prosine that my bank is 220amphr of flooded battery. 220/20 = 11A. so does that mean in my configuration, 12A is the most i will see (and rightly so, any more, i will be damaging the batteries)?
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    For flooded cells, the recommended rate is anywhere from 5% to 15% of the battery's "20hr" Amp/hr rating. In general we use C/8 to C/10, so a 220 Amp/hr flooded could take up to 27.5 Amps.

    I don't know the programming curve of your inverter's charger, but it does sound a bit on the weak side if you've set it for 220 Amp/hrs and it's only kicking out 12 Amps into a battery that's down to 11 Volts. How quickly do your batteries charge at that rate? One of the other problems that will show up these "symptoms" is a sulphated battery: less plate is exposed so it can't draw higher current, and yet the voltage levels will appear almost normal.

    You could set the Amp/hr rating to the next level and see if there's an improvement. Or trying running an equalization cycle. Have you taken any Specific Gravity readings to see what state the battery is really in?

    (Sorry if this is redundant to previously supplied information. I find I'm answering so many similar questions both on the forum and 'in real life' that I'm forgetting where I'm at.:blush:)
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    Also,

    Check your wiring... Use a Volt Meter to check the voltage at the terminals of the charger and at the battery... If there is 0.1 volt or more difference--you may have bad electrical connections and/or to small of wire gauge.

    If the battery voltage is high (14.2+), you know the battery is ~15% discharged or more (85% state of charge or less) and you have low current--then I would wonder if the battery is still good. Or if sulfation has increased the internal resistance of the battery).

    What does the load voltage of the battery drop down to when the loads are turned on after a minute or so... 12.5 volts or 11.5 volts?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • mshen11
    mshen11 Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question
    I don't know the programming curve of your inverter's charger, but it does sound a bit on the weak side if you've set it for 220 Amp/hrs and it's only kicking out 12 Amps into a battery that's down to 11 Volts. How quickly do your batteries charge at that rate? One of the other problems that will show up these "symptoms" is a sulphated battery: less plate is exposed so it can't draw higher current, and yet the voltage levels will appear almost normal.QUOTE]

    ok. maybe you have explained it. theyre dead old trojans. of the 2x3 cells, at least one is completely gone. im assuming its also very sulfated. so bad batteries can give unpredictable results like this? i figure charging is charging - should be as predicted/advertised.

    yeah i know - get new batteries. im still new at this. i want to totally beat this one up before getting new ones.

    [What does the load voltage of the battery drop down to when the loads are turned on after a minute or so... 12.5 volts or 11.5 volts?]

    because i have one dead cell, im always 'low on battery' and the inverter will not work.
  • Kamala
    Kamala Solar Expert Posts: 452 ✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question
    mshen11 wrote: »
    ... theyre dead old trojans. of the 2x3 cells, at least one is completely gone. im assuming its also very sulfated. so bad batteries can give unpredictable results like this? i figure charging is charging - should be as predicted/advertised.

    Attempting to predict or interpret the behavior of a charger connected to "bad" batteries is futile.

    If one cell is gone, you no longer have a 12V battery.

    I guess charging is charging as long as the battery can be charged. If it is damaged in some way then charging is not charging.
  • mshen11
    mshen11 Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    [If one cell is gone, you no longer have a 12V battery.]

    but the prosine doesnt know that. to the prosine, its just battery on very very very low charge - so should i see more amps being pushed through?
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question
    mshen11 wrote: »
    [If one cell is gone, you no longer have a 12V battery.]

    but the prosine doesnt know that. to the prosine, its just battery on very very very low charge - so should i see more amps being pushed through?

    Batteries can fail in different ways. If a cell has shorted (two plates touching) the Voltage will be low and it will draw more current. If a plate is sulphated (and they don't have to do it evenly) the Voltage will be low and so will the current: lack of conductivity across that plate.
  • Kamala
    Kamala Solar Expert Posts: 452 ✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question
    mshen11 wrote: »
    [If one cell is gone, you no longer have a 12V battery.]

    but the prosine doesnt know that.

    Well, it kinda does. It's reporting low batt volts.
    mshen11 wrote: »
    to the prosine, its just battery on very very very low charge - so should i see more amps being pushed through?

    Not if you have the sulphation that we all suspect. Consequently, it's internal resistance is too high. That will limit the current that can flow through it. It helps to understand the electro chemistry that is at work here. Not only are the lead plates "unexposed" to the acid, but the sulphate ion (-SO4) is now bound inertly to said plates (as Pb(SO4)) and no longer available to the ionic charge/discharge reaction. Also meaning that +H2 has escaped, thus diluting the acid concentration overall.

    I believe that your ProSine is configured and operating as it was designed to. Sadly your batteries have failed. At least one of them. IIRC you have two 12V 110AH in parallel. Try charging just one of them. The one lacking the bad cell. See if your charge current goes up.

    Keep in mind that trying to "force" more energy into a known failed battery can have catastrophic results. I think I read earlier in this thread that explosions can occur, spewing acid.

    I understand your desire to get the last bit of energy out of these batteries. Sadly, all indications are that they have already given up their all.

    The behavior of relentlessly repeating actions that have proven to be ineffectual in altering results is a symptom of certain undesirable mental afflictions. :blush:

    Good luck!

    K
  • mshen11
    mshen11 Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    thanks for explaining it to me the gory detail - i enjoy understanding the nitty gritty. i may seem to "challenge" simple responses - im merely trying to root out answers like ones given above

    ps: the results are actually WORST than a few weeks ago. for the curious: of the two trojans. one is stable at 6.3V for one week now. the other one started at 5.3 earlier this week and has dropped down to 3.xV (this is w/ some additional charging).

    no one can argue that i dont have a bad battery :)

    just for my curiosity - w/out getting physically messy how do i tell if its heavy sulfation, bad cell, etc...? my guess is each cell is 2.1V? and because i am not under such multiple, the cells are not bad - and i have super heavy sulfation?

    any chance of rescuing? i have equalized a few times for 8hrs
  • mshen11
    mshen11 Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    product question:

    how is this product any different than prosine's equalization ability (or that of any charger)

    http://store.solar-electric.com/badebysocoin.html
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question
    mshen11 wrote: »
    product question:

    how is this product any different than prosine's equalization ability (or that of any charger)

    http://store.solar-electric.com/badebysocoin.html

    De-sulphaters are not intended to charge a battery, they deliver a frequency pulse to try to re-dissolve the crystals that formed, which block the plates access to acid.
    Some think it's voodoo, some think it works.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • mshen11
    mshen11 Solar Expert Posts: 185 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    is it (voodoo)?
    im reading the last paragraph and it doesnt sound very comforting
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: prosine inverter/charger - battery setting question

    It works for those that think it is Voodo... ;)

    Reality--a lot of marketing and little in the way of independent facts to back it up. Many purchase under the idea that it doesn't hurt and may help (does consume current/power--so watch that is does not drain your bank).

    And lots of passion from both side to boot--basis for one of the few flame wars here (don't bother looking--thread is gone).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset