new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connectors

rollandelliott
rollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iFUDPA8B_ps&feature=relmfu

I'm surprised this panel has not been mentioned before.

Lowes sells them across the usa as a special order item. price of $2 a watt approximately (for large 10kw systems) with taxes and shipping is very reasonable consider the labor and materials cost saved. cost for smaller systems is higher around $3/watt.

compared to a traditional grid tie central inverter system that is approximately:
90 cents/watt for solar panels
25 cents/watt for rack
50 cents/watt for grid tie inverter
10 cents/watt for balance of system costs
$1.75 /watt total


for a 10kw system I might spend $200 to $300 on #6 grouding wire plus another $120 for solar grounding lugs plus half a day to wier it all up. with this system the panels are all grounded continuously.

it's got to be the most well thoughout easiest do it your self installations.
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Comments

  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    it seems to me that interconnected ground is illegal. somebody got paid off.
  • rollandelliott
    rollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    i dont understand what is illegal about it? are the panels somehow unsafe because of the way they are grounded?
  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector
    niel wrote: »
    it seems to me that interconnected ground is illegal. somebody got paid off.
    I don't think it's illegal. Zep has been doing that sort of thing for a while now, and Dynoraxx is getting ready to introduce a module-to-module grounding system as well. There is a concern that if you remove a module you have broken the ground for a section of the array but there are ways to minimize that. For example, you can ground both ends of a row so that you would have to remove two non-contiguous modules to break the ground to any section of the array.

    At least one major module company I talked to at SPI is looking at becoming totally frameless in the next couple of years in order to lower costs and avoid the grounding issue completely.

    Integrators are scrambling to find ways to lower racking costs, since module prices are now so low. Racking companies are in turn scrambling to deliver solutions which lower materials and labor costs. It's gotta happen.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    How long before we see plastic panel racks? Seems inevitable to me.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    I don't know--I have never seen any plastic/double sided tape/etc. type installation that would last (mechanical engineers were always trying to use that in the construction of our computer systems). The only one that seems to work is double sided tape holding the aluminum panels on the side of buses.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    I wasn't thinking about tape; just replacing the aluminium parts with structural plastic. It would have to be UV resistant of course, but some plastic does stand up to this. Any material capable of meeting the specs would be more expensive than plain vinyl, but perhaps less so than aluminium.

    Channel across the bottom that the panels could slip in to, another across the top to clamp it down. It could be done. Perhaps someone is even working on it now.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    Look like a DYIer dream. Electrician needs just a couple hours to do the interconnect setup and permitting. Easy install.
    Me thinks I might make a trip to Lowes.
  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector
    How long before we see plastic panel racks? Seems inevitable to me.

    http://www.dynoraxx.com/

    No metal parts other than the 2" pins that hold the pieces together.

    I have designed and installed two systems so far with this racking. It's great.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    It looks interesting. I was of course looking at the pitched-roof system. I see some problems with it though: the mount height is low, limiting air circulation under the panels; there doesn't seem to be any way to adjust the tilt with these so pitch is fixed at whatever the roof is (not always the same as ideal for solar, especially up here where seasonal adjustments can be valuable); the tightness of the design could make wiring a bit tricky.

    But over-all it looks like this and the flat-roof systems they offer could be a very good option in many installs.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    So online at Lowes you can get them for $12,400 in a 20 pack for 4700 watt setup. Lowes 10% off coupons abound, so that would be about $11,160 plus sales tax. Yes the racking system may need some lifting it looks like and it would not work for my concrete tile roof.
  • rollandelliott
    rollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    DynoRaxx EVOLUTION PR
    system looks very cool . esssentially using the solar panel frame as the support/racking structure.
    i'm surprised the mounts can go anywhere on the roof? seems like hitting a ttruss/rafter would be stronger.

    solar dave:

    http://westinghousesolar.com/index.php/dealer-resources

    shows in installation manual page 41 that there are adapters to work on pretty much any type of roofing including cement tile
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    Fastening to a rafter would be stronger, but not necessary. Take the weight of the panel and divide by four mounting points. It isn't so much per sq. ft. to cause a roof any grief provided the roof is built right (which the DynoRaxx people specifically mention). If you can walk on the roof without it buckling and bouncing its strong enough to take panels. Unless you weigh 98 lbs. and have size 14 feet. :p
  • rollandelliott
    rollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    ARE THERE other companies out there with similar mounting block solutions?
    this seems like such an easier solution than putting up a racking system and cheaper!
    can't believe no one else has come up wtih this solution?
    anyone with any real world install experience?

    only thing is the blocks do not raise up the panels that high. i guess a higher block could be made if the compny is sucessful in marketing it.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector
    DynoRaxx EVOLUTION PR
    system looks very cool . esssentially using the solar panel frame as the support/racking structure.
    i'm surprised the mounts can go anywhere on the roof? seems like hitting a ttruss/rafter would be stronger.

    solar dave:

    http://westinghousesolar.com/index.php/dealer-resources

    shows in installation manual page 41 that there are adapters to work on pretty much any type of roofing including cement tile

    Very cool, my current install is much the same way for the racking.
  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    I am leery about these custom integrated systems. You are stuck buying only from Westinghouse. At least the competitor ZEP solar has several module makers using their frame design. Either one limits you to buying these certain modules. I think the money you will save buying standard modules (have you seen the latest Canadian Solar prices?) will outway any cost savings from the installation, etc. Plus, I'm a lot more confident I an support and replace the standard modules vs the custom ones. Who knows who is going to survive an industry shakeout? Westinghouse is already being sued by ZEP for infringement of the patent on this module mounting system. Plus the whole issue of integrating the inverter into the module. No, thanks. I'll spend the extra time up front installing a conventional system if I can avoid support problems down the road. One of the good things about the Solar business, is that when you walk away from an install, you can be relatively confident you won't be coming back except to visit with your new customer/friend about how great solar is. Actually, I have a lot more support issues than I ought to have (yes, this means you - Xantrex, SolarEdge, and even SMA) and I don't need any more.
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector
    Fastening to a rafter would be stronger, but not necessary. Take the weight of the panel and divide by four mounting points. It isn't so much per sq. ft. to cause a roof any grief provided the roof is built right (which the DynoRaxx people specifically mention). If you can walk on the roof without it buckling and bouncing its strong enough to take panels. Unless you weigh 98 lbs. and have size 14 feet. :p

    Or unless the upward wind force on panels in a storm will be greater than the normal downward force from the weight of the panels. There is no arbitrary limit on the wind force as there is for the static weight load. In some cases this might be enough to make it necessary, or at least desirable, to connect to the rafters directly.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • rollandelliott
    rollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    " I think the money you will save buying standard modules (have you seen the latest Canadian Solar prices?) will outway any cost savings from the installation, etc."

    even at 80 cents a watt, you'll be adding 25 cents per watt for racking and $1 per watt for microninverters. I do not see how you think they will be cheaper than the $2/watt westinghoue panels. and you will have more labor

    Also westighouse and zep settled their legal disputes a few months ago.

    lastly the westinghouse panels use standard enphase micro inverters. if one goes bad you can replace it just like any other panel.

    if the actual panel goes bad, you are probably better off just starting in your sales agreement they they get a refund for that one panel. that pretty much covers your butt. with all the panel companies going out of business you are going to be in this situation regardless of who you use.
  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    I think I said this earlier, but at SPI I talked to several module manufacturers about racking issues. At least two of them told me that they are going to move to frameless designs very soon, so grounding modules will no longer be a concern. One of them, a major player, will no longer be producing framed modules at all within a couple of years.
  • rollandelliott
    rollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    an aluminum frame easily adds $10 to $20 per panel (depending on size) so say you have a 200 watt panel that is an extra 5 to 10 cents per watt costs savings, PLUS it is cheaper to ship them
  • DanS26
    DanS26 Solar Expert Posts: 264 ✭✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    As most of you know, as you raise the tilt angle then the rows have to have greater distance between them. I think the rule of thumb is 2.5 times the height of the north side of the panel. Therefore the low tilt angle (for the flat roof designs) increases the the number of panels that can be placed on the flat roof.

    More panels on the roof overcomes the trade off that comes with the optimum tilt angle but less panels. Makes sense to me.
    23.16kW Kyocera panels; 2 Fronius 7.5kW inverters; Nyle hot water; Steffes ETS; Great Lakes RO; Generac 10kW w/ATS, TED Pro System monitoring
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector
    DanS26 wrote: »

    More panels on the roof overcomes the trade off that comes with the optimum tilt angle but less panels. Makes sense to me.

    The way you can look at it is this:

    Instead of looking at the area of the roof, look at the area of a single sheet of material pointed directly at the sun and with its bottom edge at the bottom edge of the roof and its top edge casting a shadow on the top edge of the roof. That is how much incident sunlight will hit either properly spaced tilted panels or a roof full of flat panels. The only difference is if you extend your upper row of tilted panels so that the top edge rises above the top of the roof you will get a little more sunlight from the tilted panels.
    Since the tilt angle can be adjusted to match the summer and winter sun angle, but the spacing between the rows cannot, you will either waste some sun falling between the panels during the summer or lose some sun from shading in the winter. The panels flat on the roof will catch it all, but less efficiently.


    For off grid, winter is when you need sun the most, while for grid tie, summer is your big producing season and when you get the best price for your panel output.
    So the decision will vary with the kind of PV installation you are building.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • jaggedben
    jaggedben Solar Expert Posts: 230 ✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    First of all, these aren't new. They were developed about four years ago by Akeena Solar and sold under the "Andalay" label. They changed to the Westinghouse brand two years ago.

    Secondly, I've installed hundreds of these, and the notion that they do not require zip ties, or that you'll have no dangling MC4s, is laughable. In fact, wire management is the major headache with these, because unlike with most other racking systems you can't do any of it until the panels are installed. Then you have reach underneath them. Hard to find words to express the frustration I experienced, especially on steep roofs.

    Another headache is if you have to maintenance a panel in the middle of the array, you have to take the whole array apart. This can be a major problem.

    As far as being a DIYers dream, well, yeah, sure. That's certainly what they had in mind when they designed them. However the advantages over other methods are relatively minimal, and whether they outweigh the problems will be a much-disputed matter of opinion.

    The AC versions use Enphase, BTW. And your AHJ may not regard them as AC modules under the NEC because the DC wiring is still exposed.
  • rollandelliott
    rollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    I'm confused, you seem not to like them?
    Then why have you installed hundreds of them?
    the manual makes it apear that you just install a connecting wire to the end row panel. why do you need to reach under the panels for wiring?
    why would you have dangling mc4's ? the only wiring you connect to is the AC output.

    not trying to say your wrong, just trying to understand why your statements are contradictory to the manual instructions?
  • rollandelliott
    rollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwOJOdXsjPY

    the andalay system for wiring is differnet than westinghouse as the above video shows

    I think your opinion is outdated.
  • jaggedben
    jaggedben Solar Expert Posts: 230 ✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector
    I'm confused, you seem not to like them?
    Then why have you installed hundreds of them?

    Because I worked as a grunt for the company that installed them.
    why would you have dangling mc4's ? the only wiring you connect to is the AC output.

    They still sell both an AC and DC version. I didn't notice that the video you linked to only shows the AC version.

    What do you do when you reach the end of the row and want to connect to the next row up or down? They sell an extension cable, yes, but now you are having all the wire management problems I mentioned. I can almost guarantee you that 90% of the extension cables installed with this system end up lying at least partially on the roof.

    With the DC version, yes the wiring also clicks together, but then you have the problem of connecting to the next row or zip-tying home runs to the panel frames. It rarely is pretty when you have to do that. With DC you probably have to buy or wire your own cables with MC4s.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwOJOdXsjPY

    the andalay system for wiring is differnet than westinghouse as the above video shows

    I think your opinion is outdated.

    Nah, not really. Yeah, okay, it looks like they've improved it a bunch, but there are still problems.

    First, see wire management above. It's only a partial improvement.

    Second, if your AHJ doesn't accept that they are true AC modules, you may have to run a bare copper wire directlyto all the inverters. This defeats a major advantage of the system, adding backing in the time and hassle you have with other systems.

    The problem of servicing a module in the middle of the array is still there, and is particularly back with multiple rows.

    To sum up, the system works pretty well if your array will be a single long portrait row of panels. For that arrangement, I could recommend it (leaving aside any price question). For any other arrangement, it gets ugly and the advantages over "traditional" racking systems disappear quickly.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    Interpretation of NEC is half the battle, guys.

    Let's face it, one exceptionally dim inspector could demand DC GFI on those "AC modules" because there is wire from the panel to the micro-inverter. His even dumber cousin would then point out that local code requires DC disconnect beside the main meter, and so you have to run all the DC wires down to separate disconnects for each unit all lined up beside the utility meter.

    Okay, it hasn't happened yet but ... :p
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector
    Interpretation of NEC is half the battle, guys.

    Let's face it, one exceptionally dim inspector could demand DC GFI on those "AC modules" because there is wire from the panel to the micro-inverter. His even dumber cousin would then point out that local code requires DC disconnect beside the main meter, and so you have to run all the DC wires down to separate disconnects for each unit all lined up beside the utility meter.

    Okay, it hasn't happened yet but ... :p

    Fortunately, if that sort of thing is ever suggested, the readily available counter is that the inspector has no power over the internal interconnections of a "listed assembly."
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector
    inetdog wrote: »
    Fortunately, if that sort of thing is ever suggested, the readily available counter is that the inspector has no power over the internal interconnections of a "listed assembly."

    With units like the Enphase the wiring is external, so they would not consider it an assembly.
    The densest material known to man is "bureaucratskullium" (Atomic weight over 300, definitely inert, and regrettably not a very rare element).
  • rollandelliott
    rollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    "They sell an extension cable, yes, but now you are having all the wire management problems I mentioned. I can almost guarantee you that 90% of the extension cables installed with this system end up lying at least partially on the roof. "

    if they end up lying on the roof that is an incompetent instllers fault, not a product design fault.

    I see one extention cable per row that might be around 5 feet long as an immense improvement over having dangling mc4 cables also around 5 feet long between every single panel that must be zip tied as a big improvement. I guess we just disagree.

    Having a panel fail in my experience a very rare thing. and replacing a panel in the middle of a traditional racked array frequtntly requires you disassemble some of l the panels to physically reach it as well.
    Also with every AHJ have dealth with I submit a permit and drawings for approval before buying new gear. they can easily tell you if they have any crazy requirements like grounding every single panel, even though the gear has internal grounding.
    though I think that an inspector actually requiring that would be very very rare. Per the poll I posted around a year ago, the majority of respondents said their AHJ did not do a throughal job inspecing their solar set up. In my experience as long as you have documentation showing the gear is supposed to operate a certain way the AHJ accepts that because it covers their butt.
  • rollandelliott
    rollandelliott Solar Expert Posts: 834 ✭✭
    Re: new solar panels that integrated wiring, no more zip ties and dangling mc4 connector

    "
    With the DC version, yes the wiring also clicks together, but then you have the problem of connecting to the next row or zip-tying home runs to the panel frames."


    i believe the home run wire is also integrated into the frame wiring system, thus negating your perceived issue of having to zip tie home runs. Obviously the system has changed since you used it.