new to solar

gayler
gayler Registered Users Posts: 7
Hello everyone! I'm looking into doing some solar. I'm not in Arizona, but there aren't many forums so I joined this one. I live in southwest Kansas.I just want to get accurate info on solar and I think companies installing may want to sell more than I need. Also there is no solar in my area, so there is no one local. would any of you here help me figure out what I need? Thanks!

Comments

  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: new to solar

    Hi gayler, welcome to the forum.
    First off, we need to know your electricity needs. That is, will your proposed system be running just a couple of LED lights, or are you expecting to power air conditioners, large screen TVs, satellite system, the works? Our first suggestion will of course be to do some serious changes in the area of conservation, as it's far cheaper to save a watt. then to produce a watt that will be wasted.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: new to solar

    Also, if you are utility connected or looking to go "off grid".

    Lots of questions, but we can help walk you through them pretty easily.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • gayler
    gayler Registered Users Posts: 7
    Re: new to solar
    Hi gayler, welcome to the forum.
    First off, we need to know your electricity needs. That is, will your proposed system be running just a couple of LED lights, or are you expecting to power air conditioners, large screen TVs, satellite system, the works? Our first suggestion will of course be to do some serious changes in the area of conservation, as it's far cheaper to save a watt. then to produce a watt that will be wasted.

    I'm looking to do a grid tie system. For 2013 my average monthly usage was 1406 KWH. My area shows 5 peak sun hours per day. My provider is The City of Lakin. I'm paying around 14.6 cents per plus "energy adjustment" charges. I've already changed over to CFL's. I installed new windows a few years ago and would like to add more insulation above the ceiling. Thanks!
  • Plowman
    Plowman Solar Expert Posts: 203 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: new to solar
    gayler wrote: »
    For 2013 my average monthly usage was 1406 KWH.
    Yowza. That ain't gonna be cheap to run on solar.

    Get a Kill-A-Watt meter and reduce your loads by an order of magnitude.
  • gayler
    gayler Registered Users Posts: 7
    Re: new to solar
    Plowman wrote: »
    Yowza. That ain't gonna be cheap to run on solar.

    Get a Kill-A-Watt meter and reduce your loads by an order of magnitude.

    My cheapest month was may and I was at 950. My highest was around 2700 in late summer. In Kansas its either cold as the Arctic or hotter than hell!
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: new to solar

    It's worth checking with your energy provider to be sure they do net metering, we ran across some exceptions in Missouri where local providers were exempt. you might also find out 'how' they do net metering. Some Elec Co only do net on a monthly basis and you lose or they buy any energy above that at wholesale. Some/many carry it over as a credit for the next month allowing you to build up credits in the spring and fall for winter and summer months. Usually there is a 'reckoning' once a year to level the books and reset you to zero. These all might effect how you want to most cost effectively setup a system. they might also have a maximum size system, often capped at 10Kw.

    1400 kwh a month with 5 hours of average charging with a fixed array angled with in 10 degrees of your latitude, should come in just over a 10Kw array, very off the cuff figuring, 1400/30=46Kwh daily /5 hours a day = 9.2 Kw panels average about 77% efficient so 9.2 x 1.25= 11.5Kw array might toss in 3-5% extra for inverter use call it 12 Kw.

    So you have a good sized south facing roof with no obstructions/shading?
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • gayler
    gayler Registered Users Posts: 7
    Re: new to solar
    Photowhit wrote: »
    It's worth checking with your energy provider to be sure they do net metering, we ran across some exceptions in Missouri where local providers were exempt. you might also find out 'how' they do net metering. Some Elec Co only do net on a monthly basis and you lose or they buy any energy above that at wholesale. Some/many carry it over as a credit for the next month allowing you to build up credits in the spring and fall for winter and summer months. Usually there is a 'reckoning' once a year to level the books and reset you to zero. These all might effect how you want to most cost effectively setup a system. they might also have a maximum size system, often capped at 10Kw.

    1400 kwh a month with 5 hours of average charging with a fixed array angled with in 10 degrees of your latitude, should come in just over a 10Kw array, very off the cuff figuring, 1400/30=46Kwh daily /5 hours a day = 9.2 Kw panels average about 77% efficient so 9.2 x 1.25= 11.5Kw array might toss in 3-5% extra for inverter use call it 12 Kw.

    So you have a good sized south facing roof with no obstructions/shading?

    I think I'm fighting a losing battle. My town has no net metering agreement. I can go to the city meeting a propose that they offer it. I have a good size south roof of around 700sq, but there are some trees in the way. Also it's a double wide, so I don't know if it would support the solar panels.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: new to solar
    gayler wrote: »
    I think I'm fighting a losing battle. My town has no net metering agreement. I can go to the city meeting a propose that they offer it. I have a good size south roof of around 700sq, but there are some trees in the way. Also it's a double wide, so I don't know if it would support the solar panels.

    I live in a 'Tin Can' too, they can be notoriously skimpy on insulation, I think you said you had new windows put in? You might consider a roof over, adding r9-r15 to your roof can make a huge difference in those heating and A/C bills.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: new to solar

    You are getting towards the end of the GT Solar Rainbow... For a utility, GT solar does not save them any money/or much in the way of costs--Other than those provided by law (tax credits, subsidies, customer transfer payments, and such). They are looking for ways to preserve the bottom line of the business.

    Where we are starting to head is (for example, my California utility) from a $4.50 per month fee and a $0.20 per kWH cost of power--Is towards a higher monthly fee (mine is probably heading to $10 per month in the next year or two--A few utilities are already in the $48 to $96 per month connection charge) and lower per kWH fee (possibly $0.10 or less--depending on local costs and politics).

    What that means is that GT Solar may have a limited economic life (they are talking about 10-20 years of "current net metering plans" then to something else).

    It also means that even conservation becomes less economic too... For me, I reduced my electrical usage from ~600 kWH per month to less than 200 kWH per month--Or a ~$80 reduction in power usage.

    If they instead go to a $50 per month connection fee and $0.05 per kWH, then I save $20 per month--And I cannot get below $50 per month with my electric bill (sort of made up numbers, I have a seasonal/time of use power plan with net metering--It takes several pages for the utility to figure out how much to charge us).

    At this point, conservation is still economic for most people... Check with your utility and see if they have a free energy audit, or can give you a local contact that does energy audits (it is a bit of a roll of the dice--Finding a good person to do the audit). If you have an old AC system and electric heat--A modern Air Source Heat pump (cooling and heating, and sometimes "free" hot water) can be an interesting solution.

    Shading, insulation, etc. can also be a big help. Using a mini-split system so you only cool the rooms you need at the time they are used (office, bedroom, kitchen when cooking, etc.) can also be a help.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: new to solar

    The key to a reasonable cost grid tie payback is the net metering plan. You need to understand what that does to your billing first. Then you can start to properly size your system.
  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    Re: new to solar
    gayler wrote: »
    Hello everyone! I'm looking into doing some solar. I'm not in Arizona, but there aren't many forums so I joined this one. I live in southwest Kansas.I just want to get accurate info on solar and I think companies installing may want to sell more than I need. Also there is no solar in my area, so there is no one local. would any of you here help me figure out what I need? Thanks!

    First and foremost every local jurisdiction, utility provider, and PUC have different NEM (Net Energy Metering Regulations). These regulations are most typically determined by the local utility provider, that brings a bill to the state assembly, and meets approval by that state PUC (Public Energy Commission).
    Northern California has the worst NEM agreement to date with an over production rate of exchange @ $.0389 kWh we will say that's its almost $.04 which is only 1/4 of the tier 1 structured rate plan offered by PG&E. Currently to date 32 states offer equal exchange for energy value since the truth is that solar reduces voltage loss in the micro grid infrastructure, which actually saves the utility provider $1000 of dollars a day on the purchase of natural gas and coal production.

    There are 2 types of contractors.

    -Leasing Contractors: These are the worst deals because leasing contractors minimize system size, to maximize their return on investment, only offsetting the utility bill by 40~60% on average, and as a consumer, would get caught on the flat rate lease billing of the solar, plus the bill that is provided by the utility company (Which incurs a volatile rate of monetary inflation to energy exchange). Leasing contractors in most cases do not do evaluations on energy conservation and restructuring which is the key element to increasing the yield and maximizing the ROI. In california the rate of energy inflation incurs roughly 6% per year, however last year there was a spike in the inflation rate at 10.5% and it was hidden in the restructuring of the tiering payment plans from tier 1 to tier 4, in what was called the basic E1 billing structure. This means over the course of the 20 yearlease term you as a consumer only see's an estimated 30% saving's, but paid the leasing contractor/ solar provider 30% on top of teh 30% they collect on the federal tax credit, so essentially there is a 60% profit margin incurred by the leasing contractor.

    -ROI (Return On Investment) Contractors: This would be the category I fall under. I come in and do a full detailed energy analysis report. Find out where energy has been abused and where it can be conserved. I do full reports on where energy restructuring needs to occur so that, the ROI is accelerated and achievable for the client on or around year 10 or 8 before the fed tax credit has been applied, when the tax credit is applied most systems have an accelerated return between year 7 and year 5.
    In the restructuring phases. Most electric dryers are converted to natural gas dryers, any electric water heater is converted to natural gas water heater(or even better a tankless water heater). Electric heating elements actually supress return on investments at a 104% loss against the investment, because the rate of converting electricity to heat occurs at 34%, and solar is half that in converting sunlight to electricity at a conversion of 16~18%, so heating elements are diminishing returns. Natural gas is clean burning and efficient per BTU by 98% (according to tankless water heating efficiency specifications). So per LB of natural gas burned is 4/5's less in cost than 1kWh of electrical power used.
    In the process of restructuring if you have a pool with pool pumps, or a hot tub, the time of day use for high demand equipment is to be used during the peak operating power of the solar system. (I.E) you would not run a pool pump for 3 hours at night when the exchange rate of the power made through out the course of the day is paid out at $.0389, when you get equal value to use that power as you need during peak production typically between teh hours of 10am~3pm. I have a client that uses a very efficient variable speed pump to pump a 15,000 gallon pool from 10am`1:30pm, then the hot tub pump for the 500 gallon hot tub occurs only for a half hour between 1:30-2pm. In california the best return occurs when the consumer of the utility provider has reached tier 3 and tier 4 billing cycles, because this brings the cost of solar closer to grid parity. ( The cost it takes for your utility provider to provide and sell power to you). Typically if you have an average monthly utility bill between $150~ and over $200 per month you are in a position of grid parity where the rate of solar production is actually cheaper than the rate the utility company offers you power and that is what accelerates the return.Owning an electric car further accelerates the ROI so that the pay out of the solar system occurs more rapidly on or around year 4 or less since now the cost impacts of fossil fuel consumption and the inflation that occurs, would no longer be occurring and the cost of fossil fuel at the rate of MPG consumed is literally a savings $2.55 per gallon at california's price per gallon of fuel.

    -The importance of owning VS leasing is a no brainer. There is a 30% federal personal tax credit, then there is property tax exemption of that solar system if built before 2016. Also on a home appraisal the home is worth the full value of the solar system prior to the fed tax credit according to the permit cost and fee's associated at the county assessor, however it is property tax exempt, so the home sells for more where as you didn't pay the additional tax. In the case of leasing solar, none of those benefits apply.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: new to solar

    For me, in Northern California--The net metering plan is fine with me.

    I use time of use/seasonal billing... Summer afternoons, I get paid ~$0.30 per kWH, and I use power at ~$0.10 per kWH off peak. I will run around a $250-$300 per year excess credit at the end of the year--Which I lose as it is zeroed out (plan was setup to encourage people to have $0 balance at the end of the year--My system turned out to be oversized for my needs--But I knew that when I installed--thought we would have gotten an electric car sometime in the last 10 years).

    Plus, at the end of the year, if I generate more kWH than I use, I get the $0.0389 per kWH "check" too (sounds about right)--This is new for us in the last ~2 years--Before that, we only had the Net Metering plan.

    Now we have net metering plus excess generation payments. (still lose the $300 in the credit account at the end of the year).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    Re: new to solar
    BB. wrote: »
    For me, in Northern California--The net metering plan is fine with me.

    I use time of use/seasonal billing... Summer afternoons, I get paid ~$0.30 per kWH, and I use power at ~$0.10 per kWH off peak. I will run around a $250-$300 per year excess credit at the end of the year--Which I lose as it is zeroed out (plan was setup to encourage people to have $0 balance at the end of the year--My system turned out to be oversized for my needs--But I knew that when I installed--thought we would have gotten an electric car sometime in the last 10 years).

    Plus, at the end of the year, if I generate more kWH than I use, I get the $0.0389 per kWH "check" too (sounds about right)--This is new for us in the last ~2 years--Before that, we only had the Net Metering plan.

    Now we have net metering plus excess generation payments. (still lose the $300 in the credit account at the end of the year).

    -Bill

    Yours sounds like a ammended NEM.
    NOV of 2013 all NEM'S have to pay out a dividend check to the producer at the value of .0389 kWh.
    NOV of 2013 the CPUC and PG&E for Northern California made the regulations stricter that the solar build could not exceed passed 110% of last years annualized production in order to prevent PG&E from paying out producers. In order to avoid that problem and exceed the 110% rule of last years annualized the restructuring has to occur, and in some cases the electric car is a must have so that there is an estimated additional required production demand needed. With an estimated figure it bypasses the 110% rule and has allowed me to build upwards of 140% because no one can fully determine the demand the TESLA S would require whether it was 15kWh of consumption in one day or 50kWh of consumption in one day. This put the NEM under what is defined as the "experimental" electric car NEM agreement.
  • gayler
    gayler Registered Users Posts: 7
    Re: new to solar
    Photowhit wrote: »
    I live in a 'Tin Can' too, they can be notoriously skimpy on insulation, I think you said you had new windows put in? You might consider a roof over, adding r9-r15 to your roof can make a huge difference in those heating and A/C bills.

    My house is not the Tin Can type. It has composite shingles. I put in duel pane windows about nine years ago. I am looking into more insulation above the ceiling. The A/C was added about 15 years ago, but I'm sure the new one are better on electricity. The gas furnace is original so it's 33 years old and I'm going to see about replacing it also. The water heater is gas also and is one year old. The only thing else I think I need to replace is the sliding patio door. It is old and single pane.
  • gayler
    gayler Registered Users Posts: 7
    Re: new to solar
    solar_dave wrote: »
    The key to a reasonable cost grid tie payback is the net metering plan. You need to understand what that does to your billing first. Then you can start to properly size your system.
    I,m checking into the net metering, but it could take a while to find out because there is no solar here and no net metering. I will need to go before the city councel to propose they offer it. I'm sure if I can get it will not be true net metering, buy any excess at wholesell.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: new to solar

    If you have natural gas hot water/heating--Then a new 80% furnace may be the most cost effective solution (there are 95%+ gas "condensing" furnaces, but they tend to be very expensive, I have one, nice with PVC plastic flue for my home, probably not needed for yours--You have to check your billing to see if the extra costs make sense or not).

    If you have propane, then electric heat pump heating/hot water may very well be worth the money.

    Be careful, a heat pump type water heater "exhausts" cold dry air--In cold weather/regions, may need to vent outside to prevent over cooling home in winter.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: new to solar
    gayler wrote: »
    I,m checking into the net metering, but it could take a while to find out because there is no solar here and no net metering. I will need to go before the city councel to propose they offer it. I'm sure if I can get it will not be true net metering, buy any excess at wholesell.

    The other half of the exemption by state law, it may also be required by state law...

    I intended nothing derogatory by 'Tin Can'. They are surprisingly good these days. I've been impressed with how efficient my current one is. Considering I lived in a small cabin with 6" thick walls, that's really saying something!
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • gayler
    gayler Registered Users Posts: 7
    Re: new to solar
    Photowhit wrote: »
    The other half of the exemption by state law, it may also be required by state law...

    I intended nothing derogatory by 'Tin Can'. They are surprisingly good these days. I've been impressed with how efficient my current one is. Considering I lived in a small cabin with 6" thick walls, that's really saying something!
    State law says municipalities are exempt from net metering rules, but I think it's still worth asking if they would do it. I didn't take the comment as derogatory. Mine is only 1/2 step above "tin can". It is still only 2x4 exterior walls and 2x3 interior walls and 2x2 trusses. I'd like to see it go away in the next 10 years and move in a new modular over a basement, but it probably won't happen.
  • SolarPowered
    SolarPowered Solar Expert Posts: 626 ✭✭✭
    Re: new to solar
    gayler wrote: »
    State law says municipalities are exempt from net metering rules, but I think it's still worth asking if they would do it. I didn't take the comment as derogatory. Mine is only 1/2 step above "tin can". It is still only 2x4 exterior walls and 2x3 interior walls and 2x2 trusses. I'd like to see it go away in the next 10 years and move in a new modular over a basement, but it probably won't happen.


    Your best bet is to go hybrid.
    I have a design utilizing an out back GTFX/GVFX, or radian series, and piggy backing onto micro inverters, for maximum harvest, and requires minimum grid power for the interfacing for the 60hz sample rate.
    You could also do the same with the SMA sunny island and SMA micro inverters, I have an engineer working on a design but it requires additional switching.
    If you don't want micro inverter piggy backing there is also DC optimizers you can use in conjunction with some not all hybrid systems.
    The islanding design utilizes transfer switching for on and off grid, and it optimizes the time of use on the battery systems. You can also install additional features to the transfer switching on timer control for peak and off peak hours.

    In your case the biggest bang for your buck if you can't get "credits" from a NEM, is to harvest as much power as possible with micro inverter interfacing and using a minimum 1kWh string for the string inverter/charger.

    You can "minimally" use the grid to charge when the winter insolation is to low to get a bulk charge, or if you just need to maintain a full charge. If your jurisdiction has time of use, you should utilize the rate of electricity between 12pm~6am which is lower than the cost of solar electrical rate. Rate of electricity from grid between those times is between .07~.09cents a kWh VS Hybrid system power which is estimated at .19 kWh after fed tax credit.

    You don't necessarily need NEM. Hybrids do qualify for the 30% tax credit.


    Micro inverter VS DC optimizer
    http://www.solarelectricsupply.com/solar-inverter/microinverters-optimizers
    http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/To-Microinvert-or-To-Power-Optimize-That-is-the-Solar-Question

    http://www.outbackpower.com/outback-products/inverters-chargers/item/sealed-gtfx2524la-60hz?category_id=444
    http://www.outbackpower.com/outback-products/inverters-chargers/item/radian-series-gs8048a-gs4048a?category_id=444

    http://www.sma-america.com/en_US/products/off-grid-inverters/sunny-island-4548-us-6048-us.html