Charge controller trouble

kansas · September 2014

I'm just getting my system operating, or trying to. Just to get it off my chest, so far I've had to have the vendor send me a new combiner box when they sent the wrong one. Then had to send back a Kyocera panel that was damaged (I think at the factory, they think their forklift). Then had to replace (with a Trimetric meter that is on the way) a Morningstar Remote Meter that wouldn't work on some functions. Morningstar wouldn't / couldn't replace the RM-1 Meter because they discovered that none of their meters will work properly with their inverter, even though they advertise it as compatible and even build a jack receptacle into the inverter to connect it. Maybe someday they will change the software, they say, so it will work.

It's a small system. Two 140 watt Kyocera panels, two 6 volt US batteries wired in series, Morningstar 30 amp CC (Prostar 30), Morningstar SureSine 300 inverter (formerly with remote meter).

Two days ago I put the first real load on the system - two 60 watt bulbs for about 5 hours. The remote meter worked well enough to give an accurate voltage reading of 12.4 volts an hour or so after I had shut down the inverter. I didn't see any recharge after the 5 hours of use but attributed that to the cloudy day. Today - a very sunny day - I checked the battery voltage and it was the same as the ending voltage two days ago - 12.4 volts. No charging.

Checked the charge controller. The LED that is, according to Morningstar's user manual "always on in daylight" was NOT on. Check the PV in terminals: 20 volts available. Checked the battery out terminals: 12.4 volts. No recent lightning, CC cool and dry.

I disconnected then reconnected the PV, CC and inverter circuits in all possible orders. The battery status icons on the CC blinked in order and stabilized in green, meaning a good battery per the CC user manual, every time I switched the CC circuit on. The LED charging light remained off, 20 volts available at the PV in terminals, 12.4 volts at battery out terminals. However, the charging LED momentarily, very briefly, flickered when I disconnected the CC to battery circuit.

Checked all wire connections. Everything dead tight.

Is it possible the CC is defective? The likelihood of that seems remote, but . . .

Any thoughts, ideas, or quick ways to get the CC to send a charging voltage to the batteries?

Cariboocoot · September 2014

Re: Charge controller trouble

Bypass the charge controller entirely and see if the batteries don't come up in Voltage.
It's really nice to have one of the clamp-on DC Ammeters to check current too.
A pair of KD 140's ought to be capable of 14-15 Amps. You can also check the panels' Isc individually to make sure they produce.

It is possible the controller is defective. When actively passing current the PV IN Voltage should be down around 17.7, not 20 (which is closer to Voc indicating the panels aren't actually connecting to the batteries).

kansas · September 2014

Re: Charge controller trouble

Bypassing the controller:

I've shut down the entire system by opening all the circuits, including the CC to Battery circuit. Nothing should be feeding or drawing from the batteries. Hoping they will come up some. Did you mean go directly from the panels to the batteries?

Check the individual Isc:

How do I access the individual panels? Through the panel junction boxes on the back?

How do I measure current (amps) with my multimeter? I just use it as a voltage meter now.

Defective controller:

That's my guess given the Voc of 20 and the failure of the CC indicator light. I have a query in to Morningstar. Their Knowledge Base page has questions about similar failures. Read good reviews about Morningstar when I was deciding what to buy.

gww1 · September 2014

Re: Charge controller trouble

If you have a combiner box you can check panel voltage There. To check mine while they are runing I use a dc clamp meter that can be bought at sears. It is very handy for going to individual lines and seeing if you are getting power. You could also check the panel voltage at the charge controller connection. Is it posible that the breakers are not on at the combiner box? With only two panels you really kind of wasted your money on a combiner box.

Good luck
gww

vtmaps · September 2014

Re: Charge controller trouble

gww1 wrote: »

With only two panels you really kind of wasted your money on a combiner box.

I totally disagree. I have a combiner for just two strings. A combiner is an excellent place for a lightning arrestor. Also, when things are not working, the combiner is useful for troubleshooting... it gives you more access points to measure.

kansas wrote:

Did you mean go directly from the panels to the batteries?

Yes, that's what Cariboocoot meant (SEE NOTE BELOW). If you lack a DC clamp ammeter, you can find out if your panels can produce power by connecting them directly to the battery (SEE NOTE BELOW). If the voltage on the battery starts going up, it means the panels are producing power.

You must babysit your batteries while they are connected directly to the panels because the batteries can be overcharged. The single most important function of a charge controller is to protect the batteries from being overcharged.

Also, one other function of a charge controller is to prevent the battery from discharging back into the panels at night. Be sure not to leave the panels connected to the battery after dark.

NOTE: Anything and everything connected to your battery must be fused (or circuit breaker). No exceptions ever.

When you bypass your controller, do not bypass the fuse (breaker) between your controller and battery. In other words, do not literally connect your panels directly to the battery. Make sure there is a fuse between the panels and the battery.

--vtMaps

Photowhit · September 2014

Re: Charge controller trouble

Just to state what might be obvious, the Prostar 30 is a 12/24 volt charge controller. Did you either connect the batteries first if that's the way it knows which system it's charging, It might 'see' the panel VOC of @20v and think it's charging a 24 v system if it determines the charging voltage. Or it might be a switch, is it in 12 v mode? It's too late for me to hunt up which...

ILFE · September 2014

Re: Charge controller trouble

Photowhit wrote: »

Just to state what might be obvious, the Prostar 30 is a 12/24 volt charge controller. Did you either connect the batteries first if that's the way it knows which system it's charging, It might 'see' the panel VOC of @20v and think it's charging a 24 v system if it determines the charging voltage. Or it might be a switch, is it in 12 v mode? It's too late for me to hunt up which...

That's what I was thinking.

Did you make sure you connected the batteries first, and then the solar array, kansas? A PWM controller must have the pv and the batteries at the same voltage. I have the ProStar 30m (meter) and it has performed quite well for almost a year now.

kansas · September 2014

Re: Charge controller trouble

I have a Big Baby Box with circuit breakers for each of three circuits: PV to CC, CC to Bat., and Bat. to Inv't. and busbar for neutral and ground. No combiner box for the panels.

As far as connecting the battery first, I did that per the installation manual when I did all the wiring. The Prostar 30 does detect the battery voltage, as between 12 v and 24 v and automatically adjusts. The battery type (Gel, flooded, etc.) is set manually. To double check the sequence, I opened all of the above circuits and then closed the CC to Bat. first. CC still didn't show any charge to the battery.

The DC clamp meter sounds like a good investment.

To connected the panels directly to the batteries, I guess I would disconnect the positive and negative PV in and positive and negative Bat out from the controller, then connect those directly. The positive to the battery would still be running through the 30 amp fuse at the breaker panel, the same with the PV positive. Can I do that safely by opening those two circuits at the breaker panel. Does that sound correct?

Would I really need to bypass the CC since the PV VOC at the CC is just over 20 volts - the VOC of the panels before installation?

Thanks.

Photowhit · September 2014

Re: Charge controller trouble

kansas wrote: »

As far as connecting the battery first, I did that per the installation manual when I did all the wiring. The Prostar 30 does detect the battery voltage, as between 12 v and 24 v and automatically adjusts. The battery type (Gel, flooded, etc.) is set manually. To double check the sequence, I opened all of the above circuits and then closed the CC to Bat. first. CC still didn't show any charge to the battery.

I take it after you closed the CC to battery you did close the Array to CC?

It won't hurt to just connect them directly for 20 minutes or so, unless your seriously over paneled. The VOC will reduce to it's working limit 17.*** and actually to the batteries voltage and try to send current through the battery. Unless your batteries heat up considerably, no harm will be done. since their at a low state of charge you should see an increase in voltage pretty quick. Note once connected your meter will see the battery voltage and hopefully the rise in voltage. You can check it every couple minutes. Shouldn't take too long to see a change.

kansas · September 2014

Re: Charge controller trouble

Yes. Closed the array circuit after the battery circuit was closed, giving the CC A chance to see the proper voltage. But, I'll do it again. Thanks, Photowit

Photowhit · September 2014

Re: Charge controller trouble

kansas wrote: »

Yes. Closed the array circuit after the battery circuit was closed, giving the CC A chance to see the proper voltage. But, I'll do it again. Thanks, Photowit

Sorry, just wanted to run it by again, most PWM charge controller are pretty simple. How Close to KC are you? I was planning on going to a LDS store to pick up some winter wheat berries and I could go to the one in KC, rather than St. Louis. I have another errand over that way as well, I have an old but reliable PWM CC I could bring you, and do a quick look to see if something obvious is wrong...

These guys are local to you (or at least in Overland Park, KS) and have some cheap reliable SCI CC Pull's that I think can squeeze your 2 panels on.

Hope this is OK with the Mods it's a small place that mostly is just a guy who wants to teach and learn about solar, I re did most of the pictures on his site with the hopes he'd have his web lackeys swap out the photos but alas he's not really looking for business, more in the exchange of information. The link doesn't go to the home site and he doesn't provide one, so here is a site link for those who don't understand web structure.

BB. · September 2014

Re: Charge controller trouble

Not a problem--Links to other websites/stores that have information and products that help others here are just fine.

-Bill

ILFE · September 2014

Re: Charge controller trouble

Photowhit wrote: »

Sorry, just wanted to run it by again, most PWM charge controller are pretty simple. How Close to KC are you? I was planning on going to a LDS store to pick up some winter wheat berries and I could go to the one in KC, rather than St. Louis. I have another errand over that way as well, I have an old but reliable PWM CC I could bring you, and do a quick look to see if something obvious is wrong...

Probably one of, if not THE nicest thing I have seen anyone ever offer another member here. Kudos to you, sir. That's something to make you danged proud of being a member here, for sure, to see one member willing to go out of his way to help another.

kansas · September 2014

Re: Charge controller trouble

I appreciate your very generous offer. My cabin is about 75 miles from downtown Kansas City. I looked on the net but couldn't find an LDS store in the area so that's my best guess. That's a long drive, in addition to the drive to Kansas City you would be making. An experienced hand to look over my setup would be great but I would hate to put you to the trouble for what I suspect will be just a dud controller.

I don't know when you're making your wheat berries trip, but I'm hoping to resolve the CC issue pretty quickly since my batteries need a charge and need to get broken in before the cabin get's busy in the cooler weather. I'm going to bypass the controller tomorrow and, I hope, put some juice back in the batteries directly from the PV and resolve the cause of the failure to charge. I have a query to Morningstar pending and am hoping they agree the CC needs to be replaced.

By the way, where is the LDS store in Kansas City? My wife is a terrific baker and her ears perked up when I mentioned wheat berries.

Bill

Photowhit · September 2014

Re: Charge controller trouble

kansas wrote: »

I looked on the net but couldn't find an LDS store in the area so that's my best guess. That's a long drive, in addition to the drive to Kansas City you would be making. ...
By the way, where is the LDS store in Kansas City? My wife is a terrific baker and her ears perked up when I mentioned wheat berries.

For all you preppers out there that aren't familiar, or people who just like bargains, or grind their own flour, my primary use. LDS (yep the Mormons) encourage their flock to have 1 years supply of food on hand for catastrophes. They have stores that offer bulk foods, pretty much at cost, since the labor is volunteer, it's pretty darn cheap for lots of things. Wheat berries(grain) runs soft and hard (though they call it white and hard now$6-7 for a 25 lb bag, WalMart is $13+ for white $6 at the cannery. Clean seed wheat costs a bit more than that here and isn't cleaned to the degree this is. They also have bulk beans and dried milk and other staples. It's called a cannery since they also have/allow you to can or package the food in large cans or mylar bags. You have to arrange for this.

Here's a link to what's available. I got the idea that all stores had the canning option, but I see there are 2 different price/available lists, so you might check. They want you to schedule if your going to can, since everyone can't use the equipment at the same time. The canning works that you must can all of the bulk food, but you only have to buy what you want, so often there are cans available of some things that people don't want 30 lbs of... I've never canned, but have purchased some pre-done cans along with my wheat. I would have purchased a big bag of pintos but had purchased some local wheat that was mealy, so purchased locally.

Here's a Link to regional stores
Hi Here's a list of LDS Canneries.

My other errand is in Liberty, MO. So it's likely too far. I'll PM you about possibly heading over if I have time. The LDS store is only open Tues, Wed and Sat, and I need to be back both Tues and Wed, so everything would have to go very smoothly.

kansas · September 2014

Re: Charge controller trouble

Problem solved. After again sequencing the power into the CC to make sure it had properly determined the system voltage, without luck, I decided to bypass the CC as suggested by Bill and others. I did that as I outlined above - nothing. How could that be? I bypassed the PV breaker, probably foolishly, and went directly to the #6 AWG from the panels. Again, nothing. But I had metered VOC of 20 at the PV in terminals at the CC. Checked that again. Not 20 volts, -20 volts. Switched the leads on the multimeter, red to black and black to red. BINGO! 20 VOC but polarity reversed. How did I do that? There was nothing tricky about making two wire splices at the junction box on my Iron Ridge pole mount. Maybe it was the beautiful day, maybe the sun was in my eyes, who knows. Everything I read about the installation emphasized the importance of not reversing the polarity. Everything - but there you go.

So went out to the panels, threw at tarp over them as a disconnect and changed the connections. Back in the control room the LEDs blinked like Christmas lights and in 45 minutes the batteries were charging at over 14 volts. My day was made. The Morningstar Pro Star 30 CC was protected against reverse polarity, fortunately. Also, looking again at the Pro Star manual it says "the green solar indicator is always on in daylight (off during sunlight indicates solar reverse polarity or overcurrent)."

Thanks again for everyone's time and interest. One of the very fine thing about the internet is folks you meet on a good forum like this one. Bill

kansas · September 2014

Re: Charge controller trouble

Whit - your mailbox must be full.

ILFE · September 2014

Re: Charge controller trouble

Sweet! Cheap fix! :cool:

Charge controller trouble

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