Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Freewilley · August 2014

Last year I had issues with new Surettes and they were replaced this spring. They have been in service 7 weeks.
My problem is that even tho I have set absorb high and long, the SGs never get past 1.250.

I have been talking with Steve Higgins, and he has not come up with anything I can change, at least yet. He is on holidays and still took time to consider the issue, but there are many experience minds on this board....

First: system is 4 S550 wired 12v, 5 220 watt 24v panels, MX 60 and FM60, outback 2500 12 inverter, 3000 watt generator. Temp sensor and Mate
My setpoints are absorb 14.8 for 5.6 hours, float is 14.9, but I never get to float as the long absorb time uses up the day (these settings came from Steve Higgins) EQ is 16.02
I have ran EQ a couple of times to ensure I can get these batts fully charged. All of the cells are close in SG. They will go to 1.275 on EQ.

Some data on absorb cycles with good sun and little power draw from home....SORRY about the table below, hard to get it pretty in this message

July 21 2:30pm..1.250.........absorbed 2 hours
5:15...........1.250..........." "......4.5 hours
6:30...........1.250..........."...."....5:40 hours/min
Aug 9 10am........1.225..........." ..".....30 min
3pm............1.250..........."...".....4:50
4pm............1.250..........."...".....5:45
started EQ cycle, just to see if they can go up, yes they can...
6pm.............1.265

Aug. 10 11am.......1.230 .....bulk
2:30pm.......1.235........absorbed 20 min
4:30...........1.240........." "........2:20
5:50...........1.250........." "........3:14
8pm...........1.250........." ".......4:12

Aug 11 2:15........1.230........" " ........23 min
4:45...........1.245........." ".......2:30
5:45...........1.250........." " .......3:12

I got the absorb time from Surette manual as over 5.5 hours, altho that seems long. I have come to that, and other times close but am still far off 1.265
I have 2 hydrometers, one includes temp adjustment, and they both agree on SGs (before temp adjustment)

Help?

Blackcherry04 · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

I have a set that I put into service last October and I have to say that they have gotten much better over time. Where I had the ending amps at 11 amps a month ago, I have to keep adding to it every week and now have it set at 18 amps. Also it sounds like you are taking the SG reading while charging, if I did that it would rise between .12 to .15 after a over night rest. I don't know if you can remove the loads overnight are not.

Really they will last a heck of a lot longer getting them to 1.250 on a daily basis and do a short EQ and get them up once every couple weeks. If your only pulling them 20 -25% your not going to miss the capacity.

Freewilley · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

I am taking the SGs while charging.
I do not use much overnight, and one morning I took a reading and it was much higher than the night before. I dismissed that as improbable....maybe that is my answer?

Most days I pull more than that...voltage says 12.6 at bedtime, 12.3 in the morning and if not sunny will get to 12.0 if I do not power up with the genny.

The example days I gave I probably ran the genny for an hour at wakeup for coffee, toaster etc and probably charged about an hour at 1000watts or so going in.

Blackcherry04 · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

The 14.8 causes them to stay in bulk a long time I'd assume, I don't know how many amps your able to put back in. You really need to look at what your putting back in amp hrs to see if it's enough minus any loads. You may find the loads are eating into the PV output causing the batteries to get short changed.

I think you float voltage was a typo, but even 13.9 is high.

The resting SG's are really funny on them , 2-3 hours are not enough time to get a accurate reading.

Freewilley · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

I do not think the bulk phase is very much prolonged by the 14.8 compared to 14.4. The high float is NOT a typo. When trying to get the last set fully charged, Steve set that high float so to keep putting juice in EVEN in the float stage. It is irrelevant as 5.6 hours of absorb phase uses up the sun 90% or more days. Of course, if I run the genny for a couple of hours in the morning I can get to absorb quickly. But there is no good reason to do that unless I want to EQ.

There is NO issue with lack of power going in. The data I gave in the first post is on sunny days only when the controllers are throttling down the current as they move through the absorb cycle....usually there is much more power available than what they are accepting (starts at approx 600 watts and reduces to under 300 by mid cycle). Of course, if the power diminished they would fall back to bulk anyway, correct?

Blackcherry04 wrote: »

The 14.8 causes them to stay in bulk a long time I'd assume, I don't know how many amps your able to put back in. You really need to look at what your putting back in amp hrs to see if it's enough minus any loads. You may find the loads are eating into the PV output causing the batteries to get short changed.

I think you float voltage was a typo, but even 13.9 is high.

The resting SG's are really funny on them , 2-3 hours are not enough time to get a accurate reading.

Blackcherry04 · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Well, your's like mine caused me to pull my hair out, because I could not get them to charge. The absorbs were taking as long as 13 hours, but then they finally started to drop, to 11 hrs, 7 hrs to now they take about 4-5 hrs to get to 1.250 - 1.255 and then after resting overnight with no load they will be around 1.265. I started using ending amps instead of time, when I started it was taking a low of 12 amps and now it's up to 25 amps.

So my thinking is, it just takes time and cycles to get the plates formed to a point they will charge as expected.

waynefromnscanada · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Every system and the way it's used is different, I'm so lucky to normally have a small hydro set up to more or less handle essential loads without taking much out of my 2 volt L-16 Surrettes. The last two months however we have been going through an extended drought, shutting down the hydro for the last month with no end in sight. Now the batteries are taken down to roughly 70% SOC every morning and thankfully get fully recharged every day, back up to 1.265 every evening. They're over a year old now and so far I've been very happy with them. Really gotta love only having to check 6 cells instead of the 18 I used to have, and the single series string is awesome, so care and worry free compared to the 3 parallel strings of the past.

Freewilley · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

I was feeling good after reading your post and thinking, all is needed is time and cycles THEN it occurred to me, if this is normal behavior, why would the chief tech (Steve) at Surrette not tell me that????
He would have his staff fielding this situation every single day if normal.

Since he certainly did not say "normal" last week, and in a worse but similar situation last year, ended up replacing the batteries.....I am thinking this is not the way these babies are supposed to work.

It is curious to me that more of the shoguns have not added anything....is that because this is too challenging (not likely) or is seen too often???

Freewilley · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

My absorb problem continues. Surrette has reviewed and determined that it is sulphation due to not coming back to 100% on a regular basis (see new definition of regular, below)
This is what I am told:
"You need to ensure that your batteries see regular (3-4 times a week) full charge, if you don't they are going to continue to sulfate and it will crystallize, and harden."

Of course this contradicts the manual that I am using from Surrette which tells me that it is imperative that they be returned to 100% at least once a month. I note that 12-16 times a month is somewhat more than once....

Based on this new info, I need to add more panels to my 1000 watt (approx) array. If I had known this, I would have just stuck to 2 S550s rather than 4.

I am not happy, but I want to acknowledge that Surrette Tech support has stuck with me through my many troubles. But I think they need to put more resources into it and disseminate the correct information widely, without misleading info in the manuals.

BB. · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Does your system cycle daily? Actively cycling between 50-80% and recharging over 90% over every 1-2-4 weeks was supposed to be good.

-Bill

Cariboocoot · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Anecdotal based on several people's systems suffering the same problems with Surrettes:

It appears the company is selling batteries whose plates are not fully 'formed' when new. When put into service, even with a commissioning charge, they begin to deteriorate right away - especially if the cycle depth is low. By the time the problem becomes apparent and the company starts trying to help it is already too late; the batteries have been destroyed before they even got started (sulphation begins before forming is complete).

I am not certain this is what is happening with these batteries. There has been no scientific analysis and I can't imagine how one could be done.

The only suggestion I can make for people with new Surrettes is to make use of a lot of generator time: charge them up as much as possible each day, then pull them down to 50% SOC. Repeat for a month and see what happens with the SG. You're looking for it to be A). high enough,

. consistent across all cells, and C). steady over time. Then adapt a more normal charge/discharge routine.

Unfortunately for most people it is already too late. Next time don't buy Surrettes.

Freewilley · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

My system cycled 50-80%
I could not get it over 80% unless I ran EQ.

Freewilley · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Freewilley wrote: »

This is what I am told:
"You need to ensure that your batteries see regular (3-4 times a week) full charge, if you don't they are going to continue to sulfate and it will crystallize, and harden."

Of course this contradicts the manual that I am using from Surrette which tells me that it is imperative that they be returned to 100% at least once a month. I note that 12-16 times a month is somewhat more than once....

I misunderstood that the 3-4 times a week was for all users, it has been clarified to mean that it is just US that needs to do this to rectify the sulphation that has occurred.

Vic · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Hi Wiley,

This must have been covered in other Threads, before. You really under-PVed, More PV power would speed the Bulk stage, and allow some power to go to your other loads.

Know that you run the generator, but if you have some hard sulphation, then the batteries have NOT been getting fully-charged often enough, IMO.

Believe that many/most FLA batteries are delivered without fully-formed plates -- full forming takes quite a lot of time and energy. Some, on this Forum, have mentioned that there is a belief that batteries that begin their off-grid cyclic life without fully formed plates considerably better performance over their lives than do batteries that are more fully formed.

I DO believe that Surrette FLAs need to be WORKED, and then fully charged (fairly often).

More opinions. Good Luck Wiley. Vic

Freewilley · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Good news today. I ran EQ for about 5 hours yesterday.

This morning the system was at 12.3 at sunrise. I ran the genny for 3 hours. After approx 1 hour Absorb cycle started properly, SG was 1.240 (over 80%, absorb setting was 14.8 so that makes sense to me) at 8:15.
9:45, 1.5 hours later, SG was 1.250
11:45 2 hours later SG was 1.268 (might have been there earlier, I was out).

This is the first time I have seen absorb produce over 1.250.
Looks like I needed a good EQ. I will continue to "opportunity EQ" when we get good sunny days, maybe once a week.

Blackcherry04 · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Freewilley wrote: »

Good news today. I ran EQ for about 5 hours yesterday.

This morning the system was at 12.3 at sunrise. I ran the genny for 3 hours. After approx 1 hour Absorb cycle started properly, SG was 1.240 (over 80%, absorb setting was 14.8 so that makes sense to me) at 8:15.
9:45, 1.5 hours later, SG was 1.250
11:45 2 hours later SG was 1.268 (might have been there earlier, I was out).

This is the first time I have seen absorb produce over 1.250.
Looks like I needed a good EQ. I will continue to "opportunity EQ" when we get good sunny days, maybe once a week.

I think it will get better as you cycle them. Last week I was using 25 ending amps ( started with 11 amps a couple months ago ) and ending up at 1.270 SG level after a rest, so I raised the ending amps to 30 amps for this week. My opinion is that more of the plate is being used and as they form, more and more is activated.

Tobermory · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

BB. wrote: »

Does your system cycle daily? Actively cycling between 50-80% and recharging over 90% over every 1-2-4 weeks was supposed to be good.

-Bill

Hi, I'm new to this site and pretty green on my system, but I've been advised to purchase 4 S530 6V Surrette batteries and based on the thread, it seems it may take more maintenance and babying than I would have expected. In particular, I'm now concerned about installing them at the end of our season. In one month, we will likely not be to the cottage location for 6 or 7 months to check on them. Is that a mistake to install them now?

Your thoughts are welcome!

Wayne

Blackcherry04 · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Tobermory wrote: »

Hi, I'm new to this site and pretty green on my system, but I've been advised to purchase 4 S530 6V Surrette batteries and based on the thread, it seems it may take more maintenance and babying than I would have expected. In particular, I'm now concerned about installing them at the end of our season. In one month, we will likely not be to the cottage location for 6 or 7 months to check on them. Is that a mistake to install them now?

Your thoughts are welcome!

Wayne

I did that very thing in October last year and then closed up for the winter and left them on float. This spring the SG level was at 1.240 and I started to equalize them. It took almost 12 hrs to get them up too 1.265. Every time I would cycle them it was taking as much as 12 hrs of Absorb to get them back to where they were when I started the cycle. Fast forward : even though I cycle them to 50% dod, I only do it 3 days a week, It has taken all summer to get them where the charging and cycles are predictable. I am still cutting them back now little by little. They are not a problem, but It is something I was in the dark about and not use to with batteries taking a break in period. I really don't see it as a major problem, just something to be aware of. Maybe I could have cycled them a couple times during the winter. I don't feel they were hurt any, it's just a process they all have to go through. I think I am good to go for the next 7 years.

Cariboocoot · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Tobermory wrote: »

Hi, I'm new to this site and pretty green on my system, but I've been advised to purchase 4 S530 6V Surrette batteries and based on the thread, it seems it may take more maintenance and babying than I would have expected. In particular, I'm now concerned about installing them at the end of our season. In one month, we will likely not be to the cottage location for 6 or 7 months to check on them. Is that a mistake to install them now?

Your thoughts are welcome!

Wayne

Welcome to the forum Wayne.

I wouldn't buy new batteries at the end of the season no matter what: they'll be unused until the start of next season so that's about half a year's life wasted anyway.

Nor would I buy Surrettes for just the reason you mention.

If I were you I'd wait until next Spring to buy, and in the meantime look over alternate choices. At 400 Amp hours for the S530's you may have to go up/down a bit to find another brand that fits which means reevaluating your load requirements and charging ability.

Freewilley · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Since I have 6 years of experience, and just took 10 S530s to the junkyard, maybe I can help you with that....
1. Are you in Tobermory? I know that area and am fairly close as the crow flies
2. how much of a PV array do you have

Vic · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Tobermory wrote: »

Hi, ... I've been advised to purchase 4 S530 6V Surrette batteries and based on the thread, it seems it may take more maintenance and babying than I would have expected. In particular, I'm now concerned about installing them at the end of our season. In one month, we will likely not be to the cottage location for 6 or 7 months to check on them. Is that a mistake to install them now? ...

Wayne

Hi Wayne,

Agree that, unless you really need new batteries now, that installing them now would be a bit of a waste. AND, almost any Flooded battery (as are the Surrette S550s) will need a certain number of cycles to settle in.

Have been actually USING Surrettes here. Three different banks of these Surrettes are each nine years old. One of these banks are Surrette S530s, still doing well after nine years.

A few members here have had issues with their Surrettes, but not that many IMO. Some of these folks seem to have too little PV to really get their batteries fully charged on a regular basis.

When buying any battery, try to make sure that they are fairly recently manufactured, check the Date Code on each battery - all of the batteries that you are buying really should have the same Date Code. Measure the resting voltage of each battery -- the voltage of each battery should be very ciose to each other. For Flooded batteries, be certain to measure the SG of each cell. They should be at least 1.250, with only small variations between any of them. If you are not satisfied with the results of these tests, then do not accept the batteries.

If you are buying from a battery dealer, these measurements are very important, as sometimes, batteries can sit for extended periods at dealers.

All of the Surrettes un use here were drop-shipped directly from Surrette to a near-by Freight Terminal -- they were all quite fresh (about three weeks old).

Just my opinions, based on actual experience with my Surrette batteries, and those of neighbors. I certainly would buy Surrette batteries again.
Good Luck, Vic

waynefromnscanada · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Vic wrote: »

Have been actually USING Surrettes here. Three different banks of these Surrettes are each nine years old. One of these banks are Surrette S530s, still doing well after nine years.
A few members here have had issues with their Surrettes, but not that many IMO. Some of these folks seem to have too little PV to really get their batteries fully charged on a regular basis.
All of the Surrettes un use here were drop-shipped directly from Surrette to a near-by Freight Terminal -- they were all quite fresh (about three weeks old).

Just my opinions, based on actual experience with my Surrette batteries, and those of neighbors. I certainly would buy Surrette batteries again.
Good Luck, Vic

Good to read this Vic. I picked up my Surrette 2 volt L16s right from the factory door, all had SG tested in front of me with what I was told was a $2000.00 digital readout tester and all showed 1.265, mine do regularly get fully charged, but don't often get worked hard. So far, at the one year mark all appears to be as good as could be expected. One of the biggest reasons I went surrette was that they're one of, if not the only manufacturer that makes their 2 volt L16 as one big cell with one cap, instead of like most, 3 smaller cells in parallel internally, resulting in each L16 needing 3 caps. A lot easier to keep an eye on 6 cells than 18.

Cariboocoot · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

I know Trojan does the "6 Volt re-wired as 2 Volt" trick but not anyone else. It doesn't make sense to do it that way.

Tobermory · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Thanks for the info, advice and assurance Vic. Much appreciated!

Wayne

Vic wrote: »

Hi Wayne,

Agree that, unless you really need new batteries now, that installing them now would be a bit of a waste. AND, almost any Flooded battery (as are the Surrette S550s) will need a certain number of cycles to settle in.

Have been actually USING Surrettes here. Three different banks of these Surrettes are each nine years old. One of these banks are Surrette S530s, still doing well after nine years.

A few members here have had issues with their Surrettes, but not that many IMO. Some of these folks seem to have too little PV to really get their batteries fully charged on a regular basis.

When buying any battery, try to make sure that they are fairly recently manufactured, check the Date Code on each battery - all of the batteries that you are buying really should have the same Date Code. Measure the resting voltage of each battery -- the voltage of each battery should be very ciose to each other. For Flooded batteries, be certain to measure the SG of each cell. They should be at least 1.250, with only small variations between any of them. If you are not satisfied with the results of these tests, then do not accept the batteries.

If you are buying from a battery dealer, these measurements are very important, as sometimes, batteries can sit for extended periods at dealers.

All of the Surrettes un use here were drop-shipped directly from Surrette to a near-by Freight Terminal -- they were all quite fresh (about three weeks old).

Just my opinions, based on actual experience with my Surrette batteries, and those of neighbors. I certainly would buy Surrette batteries again.
Good Luck, Vic

Tobermory · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

We've disconnected the 8 old batteries so there is no draw on the panels. Is this a problem over the winter? should we hook them or a couple of them back up to keep the system working when we're not there?

Cariboocoot · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Tobermory wrote: »

We've disconnected the 8 old batteries so there is no draw on the panels. Is this a problem over the winter? should we hook them or a couple of them back up to keep the system working when we're not there?

No problem for the panels, but the batteries will probably die.

Normally in Winter you take the loads off and leave the PV & charge controller connected to the batteries. Some additional adjustments may be made depending on the exact system set-up (how the controller handles charging, PV to battery ratio, and expected insolation conditions).

BB. · August 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

If batteries are full and there is no load--you can go as low as 2% to 1 rate of charge to "float" the battery bank. Just keep an eye on water usage (any exposed plates is generally a death sentence for the cell/battery).

Of course, if the batteries are old and have high self discharge--They could still "go dead" (like an old/large fork lift battery bank).

If you have cold winters/cold battery bank--Self discharge is dramatically reduced at cold/sub freezing temperatures--Which helps a lot too.

-Bill

Estragon · September 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Long time lurker, first time poster. I'm also commissioning a new system later in the season than I would have liked. Unfortunately, circumstances have arisen that may prevent me from spending as much time getting things running smoothly in what's left of the fall, and I'll have to close up for winter (NW Ontario) in about a month.

One battery bank is 8xL16 series for 48v, and the other is 4xL16 series/parallel for 12v. The 48v (370ah) bank has 2x outback 3648 (@45adc available each) charging from 4kw diesel, and the 12v bank (740ah) has 2x Iota 45A chargers parallelled. I've just finished installing the electrical gear, and will hopefully be hooking up panels (18@250w = 4.5kw/58=~70a over 2 arrays) for 48v, 4@250 = 1kw/14.5=~65a for 12v) in the next week or so. The 48v bank was delivered wet, but resting voltage tested okay (6.3v min) when delivered and about the same when initially charged a few weeks later. 14v bank was dry, and just filled with acid a few days ago.

I haven't done SG reading yet, but have charged batteries up to full (based on voltage) with generator.

Assuming i get the panels installed and the charge controllers working okay, what should my plan be for the remainder of the season, and for winter? Should I try to cycle the banks as much as possible to "form" the plates, or focus on getting and keeping them full as much as possible, and to make sure SG gets and stays where it should be?

For winter, my gut tells me to just unhook them and hope they don't self-discharge much (they'll be pretty cool for most of the time). I won't have much time to play around with charge controller settings to get used to the system, and I'm a bit concerned that either the charge will be too high and dry out the batteries while I can't check them or adjust cc settings, or the panels will get covered by snow and the idle load of the controller (supposedly around 4w) and drain the batteries.

Thoughts?

Cariboocoot · September 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Welcome to the forum Estragon.

Couple of questions: what have you got for charge controllers, and how much time until the system will be idle?

I suspect you may be right that you should be planning on setting up preliminary charging parameters and turning off the loads until Spring.

Vic · September 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Hi Estragpm.

Assume that you are dealing with Surrette batteries ..

If so, do you have the Surrette Battery Manual():
http://support.rollsbattery.com/support/solutions/articles/654-battery-user-manual-flooded-

Did you commission the batteries shipped wet?

Have you followed the Activation instructions for the batteries shipped dry(?):
http://support.rollsbattery.com/support/solutions/articles/427-activating-instructions-dry-charged-batteries

Thanks for any info, Vic

Estragon · September 2014

Re: Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

Hi Cariboocoot

I have MNSolar 150v classics (x3) for charge controllers, 2 on the 48v system, and 1 on the 12v. I'll have to shut down for winter in about a month, and won't likely be able to get back until early May after breakup (water access only). I have been using a couple of GC batteries previously with only generator charging, and have not had serious problems with self-discharge. I'm not sure about the L16's though, as I've read they may self-discharge more than the GC's

Hi Vic,
The L16's are USBattery. Read some disturbing things about Surrettes, and they were a lot more money locally. I'm not sure what you mean by commissioning the batteries shipped wet. I've charged them so far with generator to full charge several times based on resting voltage. Initially by hooking them up as individual 12v banks and charging with 12v chargers, then as a single 48v bank using the outback inverters (using voltages from USBattery).

Thanks for any thoughts

Getting Surettes to 1.265 thru absorb cycle not working

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