Two questions about old batteries and New 2000w sine wave inverter ....

Pangea
Pangea Registered Users Posts: 16
Greetings once again from Japan...

I have since improved my solar setup but still need to work out some points...

I have a small 12 volt system...4 panels at 17.8 volts at 100 watts and a 50 watt at 17.8 volts. I have just bought two new 12v marine 115amp batteries with a 20 amp capacity charge controller...( the cheap kind PMW)

Question 1
Because I am still new to solar power I have already used up two 12 volt marine 115amp batteries...In fact they still hold a charge but do not hold it for long...Question is there anything I can do with them or just properly dispose of them.( I wonder if I can use them in another way...Can I trickle charge them with a ten watt mini panel ?)

Question 2
I wanted to run a few more appliances at home and I had a 500 modified inverter which kind of worked well except for the washing machine...SO I splurged on a 2000 watt sine wave. However I only have the 2 new 12v marine batteries to run the inverter...I do try to use my appliances during the day...
The question is why does the power dive in the day when the sun is blazing when I try to power anything over 1000 watts like a vacuum cleaner ? ( my guess is I do not have enough battery power to supply the demand...) The inverter is next to the batteries but because of lack of space ( Japan and all) I have about four feet of cable 3.5mm thick (basically car jumper cables because that is the thickest cable available here...) connecting the inverter to the batteries...

Sorry for the pitiful questions but I would be grateful for some answers...

Cheers


I would like to also ask if it is ok to add new batteries at 12 volts at 100 amps to the new 12 volt 115amps ( I know not to mix old and new) ?

Comments

  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Two questions about old batteries and New 2000w sine wave inverter ....
    Pangea wrote: »
    The question is why does the power dive in the day when the sun is blazing when I try to power anything over 1000 watts like a vacuum cleaner ?
    I splurged on a 2000 watt sine wave. (inverter)

    Three things.
    1) you don't have nearly enough solar panel power to keep up with such loads, loads which are extreme for the system you have at this time.
    2) You don't have nearly enough battery power to supply such relatively huge loads.
    3) That 2000 watt inverter, can easily try to put a load of 170 amps and at times even more, on the batteries you now have, causing their voltage to quickly sag, shutting down the inverter. Such large inverters also present a serious (for such a small system) drain on power just to keep the inverter running.
    If you want to run such big loads, you must seriously upgrade your system in many ways, including the wire size.
  • Pangea
    Pangea Registered Users Posts: 16
    Re: Two questions about old batteries and New 2000w sine wave inverter ....

    To waynefromnscanada

    Thank you so much for the response. Your explanation put things in very clear perspective. I realize the splurge on the 2000 watt inverter was rash...( however, I had read that a pure sine wave inverters are more efficient and only switch on when there is a load on, so I thought I was doing the right thing...sadly not...)

    So, Now I know more of what I need to do...

    I just read your solar setup and you seem to have two pure sine wave inverters... I was thinking maybe I can buy a 1000 watt pure sine wave for the time being and use the 2000 watt when I upgrade my system even more. That probably would take less of a toll on the batteries...

    Thank you again.

    PS I am originally from Canada as well...( Probably should go back...Long story)http://forum.solar-electric.com/images/smilies/tongue.png
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Two questions about old batteries and New 2000w sine wave inverter ....

    The other term for "old batteries" is "scrap metal".
  • Pangea
    Pangea Registered Users Posts: 16
    Re: Two questions about old batteries and New 2000w sine wave inverter ....

    To Cariboocoot

    Thank you...Will deal with them accordingly...


    If you can ...
    Would it be very bad to attach new 115amp batteries to new 100 amp batteries ?( I found out that I need more battery ( as well as panels) for the inverter and found a good deal on 100amps) or just stick to same amperage ? because the 115 will try to balance with the 100amps ...( there is a mix of info on the net and it is sometimes hard to figure out)

    Cheers
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Two questions about old batteries and New 2000w sine wave inverter ....

    The difference between 115 Amp hours and 100 Amp hours is minimal. They would each charge around 10 Amps so together they'd be in the same function range.

    Where you get into trouble is when the difference starts spreading and one size is at the low end of its charge current range while the other is at its high end. Like a 220 Amp hour & a 115 Amp hour together: one wants 22 Amps and the other wants 11. If you put them together and charge at 33 Amps the current will not be even through them and the 115 Amp hour battery gets toasted while the 220 Amp hour one gets very low charge. Turn the current down so the small battery doesn't fry and the big one gets even less charge. Turn it up to charge the large battery and the small one cooks quicker.

    If the two are both within the 5-13 percent range it will work. Not ideally, but there won't be any big disaster looming.
  • Pangea
    Pangea Registered Users Posts: 16
    Re: Two questions about old batteries and New 2000w sine wave inverter ....

    To Cariboocoot

    Thank you again...

    I am relieved to know that because I have a few options at buying inexpensive batteries because they range between 100 to 115 amps.

    I have never seen any batteries rated at 220 amps here in Japan yet. They are probably pricy but worth it for a solar system.

    Good to know...
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Two questions about old batteries and New 2000w sine wave inverter ....

    You can look for Golf C art batteries, 6v and ~ 225 Ahr rated, like these
    http://www.trojanbattery.com/product/t-105-re/
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Two questions about old batteries and New 2000w sine wave inverter ....

    With Japan's conversion greater reliance on solar, True deep cycle batteries will become more readily available.

    As Westbranch said, common batteries for small system are generally Golf cart batteries, since the larger production for Golf cart use makes them more affordable. As you have found Marine batteries are generally a poor battery for solar/deepcycle use. You might ask around with solar suppliers as to the local types of batteries.

    Your old batteries have value, scrap lead will bring a high price, I suspect, here 1/5th to 1/4 of the value of a battery is the lead...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Pangea
    Pangea Registered Users Posts: 16
    Re: Two questions about old batteries and New 2000w sine wave inverter ....

    To Photowhit

    Thanks for the recycle idea for the old batteries.

    Japan sadly is way behind with DIY anything. That does not mean that it is not existent. It just on a limited scale.

    You are right! Solar panels have increased greatly and many roofs sport solar panels to my ever wishful eye ( meaning I want those panels too).

    However mostly On GRID. I have not been able to discern any off grid yet.( Perhaps I have a poor eye). Funny the power company does not provide that service. Instead the gas company offers ON GRID installation in Nagasaki... I wonder if the electric company has any ruffled feathers since they lose the cash...

    To westbranch

    Thank you for the battery recommendation. I will scour around for those batteries. I think my best bet would be to find someone on a US military base to get them.( Provided they would not get into any trouble. They have some strict rules for that sort of thing.) The reason I say this is because even though Japan being the size of California and has many many golf courses but be damned to see any golf carts ( perhaps that is what keeps their waist lines in check)...However the military bases have their own golf course with USA golf carts...

    Bit of a blurb but thank you again...

    Sadly I have reattached my modified sine wave 500 watt inverter...My system is too small to handle the 2000 watt pure sine beast which i toted with pride...I bought it on amazon so I think I could get a refund but I just do not want too...I will get a small cabin one day and will need it then...Plus I do plan to keep expanding the solar system ...

    SO perhaps a 1000 watt pure sine wave at 160 bucks is next in line...Any thought good folks ? Before I mess up again...
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Two questions about old batteries and New 2000w sine wave inverter ....

    Where do you get a pure sine wave 1kW inverter for $160? One that isn't a piece of junk I mean.
    You can get a Samlex/Cotek 12 Volt 1kW (about the limit on 12 Volts) for around $400. Fairly good quality inverter.

    Japan has weird power standards: 100 Volts and 50 or 60 Hz depending on where you are. That must make for some interesting appliance shopping. You may need to buy a custom-designed Exeltech if you need to meet those specs.
  • Pangea
    Pangea Registered Users Posts: 16
    Re: Two questions about old batteries and New 2000w sine wave inverter ....

    To Cariboocoot

    Thanks for the heads up about the junk at that price. Sadly many of the fine suggestions are not available here in Japan. However, I found COTEK on AMAZON jp. It is about 700 dollars for 1500 watts. Does that sound about right ?

    Now I realize that my 2000 watt must be a piece of junk as well...I guess there is still time to return it...Pity but the price you pay for ignorance...

    As far as the appliances go, many of the appliances have a 50 / 60 Hz automatic setting inside. ( As far as I know...I used to live in Tokyo at 50Hz and now here in Nagasaki at 60 Hz. I had no problems with any of the appliances.)

    But Yes it is strange and it goes back in history when Japan was first setting up electricity. Tokyo used a German company and Osaka used an American company and they never looked back since. ( Nothing like united we stand and the heck if you use 50 or 60 Hz.) So East Japan could not use the electricity from West Japan because they are not compatible after the earth quake and NUCLEAR DISASTER. Hence my move to Nagasaki. ( Yep Ironic considering they had an atomic bomb dropped on them). I actually checked for radiation here because I own a Geiger counter and no problems left over from the bomb. ( except for the scarred remains and victims that is...)

    Well looks like I will wait and save up some more cash before buying anything else...maybe another couple of batteries wouldn't hurt ...Or would they ? 450 watts of panel at 17.8volts...would 2 more batteries be a mistake ?
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Two questions about old batteries and New 2000w sine wave inverter ....

    That inverter is probably as good as you're going to get for the money where you are.

    Adding batteries without adding panels is a no-no. 450 Watts of panel produces about 25 Amps on a 12 Volt system and that's usually enough for 250 Amp hours, up to a maximum 500 if no loads are used while charging (as in a night-light only system). So if you've already got a couple hundred Amp hour and another battery would bring it up in the 300 Amp hour range you're pushing the charging capacity. The 10% rule-of-thumb is based on sunny day with concurrent loads not taking more than a few percent of the charge current on average. The lower it goes, for whatever reason, the more likely the possibility of problems.

    Canada, btw, started out with 50 Hz power. In the 1950's we switched to 60 Hz; actually sent out red trucks all over the place to change people's motors and transformers and such. That was so we could connect to the American grid and sell them tons of cheap hydro-electric power. It was a massive undertaking and I doubt they'd manage to do it today. I believe Japan actually has a frequency interface between the two halves: big DC-to-DC connection so that some power can be shared on its schizophrenic grid.

    It's interesting to read the history of power grids. Europe had hundreds of little companies all with their own ideas which is why they now have a really broad Voltage 'standard' to incorporate those areas that were too low V or high V to fit a tight tolerance. The US had a V standard of 110/220 for decades before they just upped the numbers because it's easier to push power at higher Voltage. Oddly enough they started out with lots of little, local generating companies and if solar distributed power makes any inroads it will be going back to that, but with a grid.

    We always caution people about the difficulties of expanding a system. Well the grid infrastructure has all the same problems, only times a million or so.
  • Pangea
    Pangea Registered Users Posts: 16
    Re: Two questions about old batteries and New 2000w sine wave inverter ....

    To Cariboocoot

    Thank you again...

    I really need to study some basic electricity principles before jumping the gun...Bit lazy and a bit busy but no excuse...I see that I probably should start increasing panel first before anything else if I what to have heavier loads on the system...

    I did not know that Canada was at 50 hz...then made the change to 60 Hz for the cash...Thanks to your explanation I feel that Japan would also have a time of it making one system... At least I won't think they just being lazy ( like me ...just kidding)

    If you have a moment I was wondering what your opinion is about this website...http://www.freesunpower.com/solarhome.php...

    The reason is that is where I got some conflicting information and erroneously thought my 450watts of panel was enough for a few more batteries...

    Just curious ....

    Thanks again for all the info ...
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Two questions about old batteries and New 2000w sine wave inverter ....
    Pangea wrote: »

    I did not know that Canada was at 50 hz...then made the change to 60 Hz

    Actually, some parts (Newfoundland and parts of Ontario for example) had areas that were supplied with 25 Hz.
    http://electrical-science.blogspot.ca/2009/12/history-of-power-frequency.html
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Two questions about old batteries and New 2000w sine wave inverter ....

    Okay after it says "free" stop looking because nothing is free, especially not solar power. It is in fact very expensive even now. The first thing they describe on that page is a 480 Watt array connected to a 60 Amp controller. Why? You sure aren't going to get 60 Amps out of 480 Watts. About 30 on a 12 Volt system, and we all know how inefficient 12 Volt systems are. "Fifteen 105 Amp hour batteries" is another mistake. They left out the Voltage so it's meaningless, but that size sounds like a 12 Volt unit. So ... fifteen in parallel? That's nuts. If it's 24 or 48 Volts the current from the array would be even less than 30 Amps. Besides if it's 1575 Amp hours on 12 Volts 30 Amps will do nothing for it. Yet he claims he runs even an A/C and uses 60 to 80 kW hours per month. Either the numbers are totally wrong (the information is not clearly or accurately presented), or he replaces batteries very often, or he's lying. The physics does not support the claims as presented. Maybe he loves running that 7kW generator 12 hours a day.

    Based on that I would avoid looking at the site. Sounds like the kind of thing I keep having to fix. "But a guy on the Internet said all you need is a 20 Watt panel and an old car battery and you can replace your grid usage completely and spin the meter backwards."

    Yes, some of Canada was 25 Hz just as Wayne said. Some of the world was. Motors work better at lower frequency (if they're designed for it) because they have a better power factor then. But you can't have everything in one package: they also run slower, which has its own problems.
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Two questions about old batteries and New 2000w sine wave inverter ....
    Pangea wrote: »

    If you have a moment I was wondering what your opinion is about this website...http://www.freesunpower.com/solarhome.php...

    Oh yeah - - - Welcome to the infamous Misinformation Highway. :D
  • Pangea
    Pangea Registered Users Posts: 16
    Re: Two questions about old batteries and New 2000w sine wave inverter ....

    To Cariboocoot

    Thank you for checking that site. I really appreciate your explanation about it. Yes it did seem too good to be true. I will stick you guys from now on. There certainly seems to be a lot of crock out there...

    I think I had better take more time and effort into learning the finer points before proceeding with any further purchases except more panel ( you just can never go wrong with buying more panel ...right ?).

    Basically I run 12 volt LED lights in the living room and kitchen( using the LOAD feature) .Also I charge my cell phones as well. ( I have reduced my electric bill somewhat by doing this.) When the weather is good and the batteries get a good charge I run my computer and tv and sometimes the stereo system ( for a little while like 3 hours or so )...I began to get greedy and tried to use the washing machine ( not using the stereo or tv nor computer at the same time of course ) in the day time but the modified sine wave 500 inverter was acting up with the timer...So then I thought if I had a better ( and Bigger ) inverter perhaps I could do it and in fact it does work...but foolishly bought too big an inverter and too cheap...( The price paid for laziness and not taking the time to learn things right... Just trying to get the quick fix without truly putting time needed to get it right..I am not too proud to say I am wrong and need to learn more...)

    So really thank you and I will stick to this site and you guys for further advice on how to expand the system correctly after spending time learning more about it first so not to pester anyone with fool questions...( can't promise fully but will try my best)