Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

HX_Guy
HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
Hey guys, new member here and I'm interested in adding solar power to our home in Phoenix, AZ. I've considered it for a while but just in the last few days got serious and actually started getting some prices/specs/etc.

Originally I was thinking a solar lease which I got a quote for $175/month for a 10kW system from Solar City. Then in my research, I found that for the same amount, I could actually finance a system over 12 years which I would own and it seems like a much much better way to go unless I'm missing something?

I'm going by the data from another local guy but he got a 10.71kW system for a price of $32,000 minus $9,600 Fed rebate minus $1,000 State rebate. The setup was two loans, one same-as-cash 1 year loan for $10,600 (the rebate amounts) and the second for $21,400 for 12 years at 2.99% which is $177/month.

Based on those figures, it would make zero sense to go with a lease at the same monthly payment and you never own the system, plus you're paying that amount for 20 years. With the finance route, after 12 years it's paid off and then your monthly electricity payments really drop.

So am I missing something? Something I didn't consider? I know that with a lease, they maintain the system and guarantee a certain output but from what others have told me, there really isn't much maintenance anyway plus these systems normally come with a 25 year panel warranty and 10 year inverter warranty.

Thanks for the help and any feedback is appreciated.
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Comments

  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    Remember you have to have enough tax liability to get the full credit all in one year, it is not a rebate but a tax credit in both cases. BTW it is much nicer if you can kick in some cash up front to keep those payments in line.
  • ButchDeal
    ButchDeal Solar Expert Posts: 35
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?
    solar_dave wrote: »
    Remember you have to have enough tax liability to get the full credit all in one year, it is not a rebate but a tax credit in both cases. BTW it is much nicer if you can kick in some cash up front to keep those payments in line.

    The federal tax credit can be carried forward and does not need to be used in the one year.
    http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/incentive.cfm?Incentive_Code=US37F
    http://energy.gov/savings/residential-renewable-energy-tax-credit

    so you can carry it forward at least to 2016 tax year.
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    Good point Dave. We are self employed (Corp-S) so that shouldn't be a problem I don't think, we'll talk to our tax accountant and see if we need to adjust our quarterly estimated payments we send to the IRS.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?
    ButchDeal wrote: »
    The federal tax credit can be carried forward and does not need to be used in the one year.
    http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/incentive.cfm?Incentive_Code=US37F
    http://energy.gov/savings/residential-renewable-energy-tax-credit

    so you can carry it forward at least to 2016 tax year.


    If you have a 12 month loan it has to be paid in that time frame.
  • ButchDeal
    ButchDeal Solar Expert Posts: 35
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    Good point Dave. We are self employed (Corp-S) so that shouldn't be a problem I don't think, we'll talk to our tax accountant and see if we need to adjust our quarterly estimated payments we send to the IRS.

    oh you have other options as well if you have a home office etc. and Corp.
    http://www.dsireusa.org/solar/incentives/index.cfm?re=0&ee=0&spv=1&st=1&srp=0&state=AZ
    might want to have a longer conversation with the tax accountant ;)
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?
    ButchDeal wrote: »
    oh you have other options as well if you have a home office etc. and Corp.
    http://www.dsireusa.org/solar/incentives/index.cfm?re=0&ee=0&spv=1&st=1&srp=0&state=AZ
    might want to have a longer conversation with the tax accountant ;)

    I just made a separate thread about that, hope that's ok. :)
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    I just wrapped up my first on-site estimate from a local company. Unfortunately their salesman wasn't very good and I don't even know if I can trust his information but he gave me two quotes with panels/inverters that I've never heard of, though I have no experience with this so that doesn't mean much.

    The first was a 10.6kW system using 40 Sun Edison panels and a Fronius inverter. The price was $43,000 (before credits) and he said it included an electrical panel change which will be necessary according to him. We have a 200 AMP panel and he said we'll need a 400 AMP panel, does that sound correct?

    The second was a 10.5kW system using 42 Canadian Solar panels and also a Fornius inverter. Price was $33,000 (before credits) and also included the upgraded panel change. Obviously much better price, but he didn't know the model numbers of the panels or inverters.

    Any input on those?
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    Nothing wrong with Fronius inverters or Canadian Solar panels. I'm not familiar with Sun Edison panels.

    A 200 Amp service can take a 40 Amp GTI connection: basically 9.6 kW. I don't know where he got the idea you need to upgrade the service, unless the existing one has no place to connect to. Even then there are ways around it.

    Listen to some of the installers here, and get a few more quotes. I don't like the sound of that first one.
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    So over a 9.6kW system you need a bigger than 200 Amp service panel? He said that any system over 10kW needs a larger service panel so that makes sense.

    Good to hear that those brands are good, makes his quote more competitive and he even asked "What number did you have in mind" leading me to believe there is some room there for negotiations. I have 3 more estimates this week and waiting on 2 call backs, so I'll have 6 estimates by the time I'm done to choose from.
  • SkiDoo55
    SkiDoo55 Solar Expert Posts: 414 ✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    Would need to know what model of inverter to see if panel needs upgrading. Others have depending on local codes and how much actual loads have downsized main breaker so they could have more than 40 amp breaker for backfeed..
    @7680 watts output of inverter is max NEC for a 40 amp breaker.
    i have total 9600 watts of panels on 2 ea GT 3800 watt inverters thru AC combiner to fed a 40 amp breaker in main panel. If they are quoting a large single Fronius then something would have to be changed.
    GT3.8 w/4600W Trina 230W, TX5000 w/5000W ET-250W, XW4024 w/1500W ET-250W, 4 L16, 5500W Gen. (never had to use) Yet!!
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?
    SkiDoo55 wrote: »
    Would need to know what model of inverter to see if panel needs upgrading. Others have depending on local codes and how much actual loads have downsized main breaker so they could have more than 40 amp breaker for backfeed..

    Looking back at the quote, it says "1 x Fronius USA, Model: IG Plus A 10.0-240"
  • SkiDoo55
    SkiDoo55 Solar Expert Posts: 414 ✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    That would require either panel upgrade or main downsizing. From my 3+ years of operating grid tied system you are best to over panel the inverter as very seldom do you get max rated from them. You are wasting inverter capacity. Mine will clip or limit output but only about this time of year with clear skies and under 80-85 deg days.

    my older system is about 120% over and newer system is about 130%. Neither where calculated to be that much over it was just because do to the panel cost and number of panels required to get the voltages where I wanted them. Both systems are within the parameter of the sizing program from the inverter manufacturer. Either tomorrow or day after my combined output will pass 30MWh since 08/2010. Juste added second 5 KW of panels last summer.

    the 2ea 3800 W inverters give me the max wattage that can be put on a 40 amp breaker.
    GT3.8 w/4600W Trina 230W, TX5000 w/5000W ET-250W, XW4024 w/1500W ET-250W, 4 L16, 5500W Gen. (never had to use) Yet!!
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    I have no idea what you just said. :D Basically we would need to upgrade the service panel, right?

    I'm also planning on getting a plug-in electric hybrid sometime next year and having a wall charger plugged into the garage...would that have any impact on any of the solar install/service panel size?
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    I have no idea what you just said. :D Basically we would need to upgrade the service panel, right?

    No, not necessarily. The NEC reg is for 120% of the rating of the service panel's bus bars. So that is typically 200 Amp main breaker plus 40 Amp solar breaker. But if you put in a smaller main breaker you can increase the size of the solar breaker (providing the inspector understands this).

    The over-paneling refers to the fact PV's don't put out their rated Watts. Ordinarily they produce about 80% or so, hence SkiDoo55's 120% and 130% paneling. Think of it as putting 12,000 Watts on a 10,000 Watt inverter. Again the inspector has to comprehend what is going on.
    I'm also planning on getting a plug-in electric hybrid sometime next year and having a wall charger plugged into the garage...would that have any impact on any of the solar install/service panel size?

    Only if your intent is to charge the car from solar during the day. Or if you want to sell back enough to offset the car charging at night. The charging being an unknown quantity at this point I would stick with maximizing the system as it stands rather than make any massive changes.
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    I guess I'll let the install guys figure it out when the times comes, if they say we need a new panel I guess I wouldn't have much say. I'll see what the other estimators say as well.

    We do also have a sub-panel for our pool, didn't mention that earlier and I'm not sure if that affects anything.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    I guess I'll let the install guys figure it out when the times comes, if they say we need a new panel I guess I wouldn't have much say. I'll see what the other estimators say as well.

    We do also have a sub-panel for our pool, didn't mention that earlier and I'm not sure if that affects anything.

    It doesn't so long as you don't try to use that to connect up the solar!
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    I got some production figures from a local Phoenix guy on another forum who shared his link from Sunpower, freaking cool stuff: https://www.sunpowermonitor.com/residential/kioskshare.aspx?id=f87466b4-36a0-4a27-8e4c-3ea3a2954ca2&type=address

    I took the numbers of his 6.9kW system and applied them to a 10.5kW (assuming it's linear) and got a yearly production of 18,621 which is close to the 18,020 I was quoted today. I then used a 1.52 multiplier and applied it to the past 12 months and compared the production to our usage. Now of course this is a total estimate but I'm hoping it's close to +/-10%.

    solar14.jpg

    This is based off the standard rate plan, not the TOU. Figuring the TOU would be a lot more difficult, I may do it if I get super bored. ;)
    According to this, I could see a potential savings right off the bat of ~$500/year. After the solar system is paid off, then the savings would be $2,600 per year. Does that seem about right?
  • SkiDoo55
    SkiDoo55 Solar Expert Posts: 414 ✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    I have no idea what you just said. :D Basically we would need to upgrade the service panel, right?

    I'm also planning on getting a plug-in electric hybrid sometime next year and having a wall charger plugged into the garage...would that have any impact on any of the solar install/service panel size?
    Yes would have to upgrade service panel with a 10 KW inverter feeding it. Option would be if you could downsize main, but it sounds like you have lots of loads pool, A/C then car charging to come. Sounds like large main panel in the future.

    sorry I didn't explain it good enough was trying to keep post short. Information overload!
    GT3.8 w/4600W Trina 230W, TX5000 w/5000W ET-250W, XW4024 w/1500W ET-250W, 4 L16, 5500W Gen. (never had to use) Yet!!
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    Yep we had to upgrade the service entrance when doing our 12.5 Kw system. Second 200 amp panel (derated to 175 amp main breaker) with a 400 amp service entrance meter and line from the transformer. Usually not a cheap upgrade, they actually replaced all the equipment from the transformer up to the wiring in the house.

    They denied down grading our original 200 amp main to 175 amp because of the load profile of two 3 ton AC units, a pool, an electric dryer and range ...

    In our case it was OK with us because we knew we were adding a pair of L2 ESEV car charging systems for our Chevy Volts via 60 amp sub panel in the garage and a second building with a 125AMP sub panel to support some machine tools and a welder (50 amps @ 240V). This place has so much damn much copper in it is is unreal compared to when it was built 17 years ago.

    PS it will be interesting to see if you can beat that about $3.30 a watt install price. And The PVwatts site is pretty darn accurate on what we see here, plus or minus 10% which can just be weather variability.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    One other option: line-side tap. This connects the solar output to the meter side of the main service breaker. If this is allowed there it eliminates the need to change the service panel and may be a cheaper choice. Talk to the installers.
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?
    solar_dave wrote: »
    PS it will be interesting to see if you can beat that about $3.30 a watt install price.

    Well, second quote already beat it. :p

    The guy is actually still here on the roof but he did an estimate before he came out. The system is smaller at 8.64kW but the price per watt is actually cheaper than the bigger system which impressed me. He said if we wanted a bigger system (and he's up on the roof measuring for how big of a system we could have), the price should come down (per watt).

    This is what I was quoted...

    Hanwha HSL60P6-PA-0-240TB panels and Fronius USA IG+ A 7.5 240 Inverter total system cost of $25,574.80 or $2.85/watt. After tax credits, it would be $16,202.36 or $1.88 per watt. Price seems pretty good, but I have no idea if the panels are any good.

    Input? :)
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    I can not resist: Han what panels? :D

    Never heard of them before, but there's new companies popping up daily. Also dropping dead daily.
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    Received updated quotes from the guy that stopped by earlier today. Very impressed with their thoroughness and professionalism and their prices seem pretty good I think, but hopefully I can get some more input on that. He has been the only to to actually go up on the roof and do measurements plus used some sort of device to calculate if there will be any shade in the winter months because our south neighbor has a 2 story house. Doing that, he actually figured that there would be some shade on the lower part of the roof and laid out the panels in a different configuration.

    solar15.jpg

    He gave me two quotes on bigger systems, one using the same Hanwha panels and the other using LG panels. The LG panels have better specs and I have to assume are better reliability wise, just by the brand recognition? Both panels have a 25 year warranty, though I thinking theres a much higher chance that LG will still be around 25 years from now.

    Quote #1: 10.06kW system producing 16,564 kWh per year
    42 x Hanwha HXL60P6-PA-0-240TB 240W panels
    1 x Fronius USA IG+ A 10.0-240 inverter
    $28,576 pre-tax credits ($2.85/watt) - $19,003 after tax credits ($1.90/watt)

    Quote #2: 10.92kW system producing 18,121 kWh per year
    42 x LG LG260S1C-G3 260W panels
    1 x Fronius USA IG+ A 10.0-240 inverter
    $32,552.85 pre-tax credits ($2.98/watt) - $21,787.00 after tax credits ($2.00/watt)

    Feedback on either of those? Thanks. :)
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    Ok so here come the big dogs! I finally got a quote on SunPower panels and inverter, which everyone seems to agree are the best in the industry. They actually quoted me on the largest system yet, 11.2kW, to cover 100% of yearly electricity. I'm waiting to receive the month-by-month production number so I can plug them in and see if it's worth going with a system that big.

    11.2kW system producing 21,300 kWh per year
    35 x SunPower SPR-320NW-WHT-D 320W panels
    1 x SunPower SPR-11401f-i UNI inverter
    $43,904 pre-tax credits ($3.92/watt) - $29,732.80 after tax credits ($2.65/watt)

    You do get a better "bang for your buck" on these more expensive systems because you get a lot more back tax credit wise. So for example a $44,000 system will end up being $30,000 net, while a $31,000 system would be $21,000 net...so you get $14,000 for $9,000 basically.

    One thing I've learned, which I wasn't told of until today, is that these 2.99% financing deals seem to only be available on the higher priced panels (SunPower, SunEdison). The lower priced (Canadian Solar, Hanwha) have a rate of 7.99% so you're getting a lot less for your money, combined with less tax credit, doesn't really seem to make a lot of sense.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?
    HX_Guy wrote: »
    One thing I've learned, which I wasn't told of until today, is that these 2.99% financing deals seem to only be available on the higher priced panels (SunPower, SunEdison). The lower priced (Canadian Solar, Hanwha) have a rate of 7.99% so you're getting a lot less for your money, combined with less tax credit, doesn't really seem to make a lot of sense.

    Sure it does, they have more of your money to begin with!
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    If the panels are on different roof plans (not all pointing the same direction)--It is probably better to go with the micro-inverter (Enphase or similar). I cannot tell if your panels are face the same direction/angles or not.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    BB funny you mention that, I just got off the phone with a company (yes, this late :p ) and he was telling me about the SunPower 240 AC panels with micro-inverters. The price was gave me was $500 more than the SunPower 320 panels but the upside really seems to be that the 25 year warranty covers both the panel and inverter. Seems like a no-brainer, no?

    He gave me a price of $3.97/watt for the 240 AC panels, seem good? The 320 panels were $3.92/watt.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    At this point, warranty times >5 years is probably a matter of faith.

    Things (electronics, solar panels) are changing quickly, and companies come & go--Don't put yourself in a cash poor situation if you need to replace some panels/inverters down the road and the original companies no longer exist.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • HX_Guy
    HX_Guy Solar Expert Posts: 296 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    So wouldn't it be better to have a system that uses micro-inverters which would be cheaper to replace than replacing a whole big inverter?

    I'm pretty confused at this point. Do I go with something cheaper for a better price per watt, do I spend more on the best stuff? Are panels like SunPower really that much more efficient to where you need less for the same power? I was told for example that to make the same power with Canadian Solar, I would need a 12.24kW system vs a 11.2kW with SunPower, so the cheaper price per watt gets sort of negated...there's still a savings but not nearly as much as if they were equally efficient.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Looking to go solar...everything looking good, am I missing something?

    I am not going to tell you A is better than B (last longer, more power, etc.)... My luck has been I choose a panel from a major oil company because they will be around for a long time--And the panels fail after about 6 years, and shortly thereafter, the company gets out of the solar panel business.

    The difference between central and micro inverters--Are not that much any more (price, and probably reliability with the new micro inverters that do not use electrolytic capacitors (these type of capacitors generally have a service life of ~10 years or so)).

    I prefer the central inverter (one inverter on the side of the home, no internet required for monitoring, etc.) vs micro inverter (inverter per panel on the roof to find and repair, generally need a special interface box to monitor each inverter and internet back to the mother company to get the information).

    However, if you have an array with different angles, possible shading issues, and such, a micro-inverter setup may give you better harvest in the long term.

    Panel efficiency--In general, the panel efficiency (over time, temperature, etc.) is all similar for crystalline silicon panels. These are parameters based on the physics of the silicon its self. Yes, there are designs that will collect more watts per square foot--And if you need more panels in a small space, sometimes that is worth paying the extra $$$/Watt for the panels. If you are not space limited, then usually paying more $$$/Watt for the install for "more efficient" panels is not worth it.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset