Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??

nobody928
nobody928 Solar Expert Posts: 62 ✭✭✭✭
I have never heard of the inverter charger all in one unit until as of late. How do they work? Why are they so great?
What are some brands and price ranges? Are they a good pick for someone using a small 12v system?

Thanks in advance for all your help.

Comments

  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??

    They have the advantage of a built-in programmable AC powered charger. What this means is if there is not enough solar (or other source) to charge the batteries you can feed the inverter-charger AC from (usually) a generator and recharge the batteries with the correct parameters for those batteries.

    They can also be used without solar panels for back-up power by having them connect to AC mains with critical loads on the output side. If the utility power fails the inverter will automatically take over the critical loads, usually without any noticeable change. When the utility power returns it will recharge the batteries. In an extended outage you can substitute a generator for utility and have "quiet power" from the batteries at night and "noisy power" from the gen during the day.

    They cost quite a bit more than inverter-only designs, and this is due not only to the built-in charger but also the other expanded capabilities that usually come with a more complex design (programmable low Voltage disconnect for example).

    Several companies make these. Outback is in my opinion the best, although it is very complex. For ease of install Magnum makes inverter-chargers. If you're fan of constantly having to tinker and spend money there's Xantrex/Conext (the entomologist's favourite). :p SMA makes a Sunny Island which is not only expensive but also the best choice for a combined Grid Tie with battery back-up using AC coupled GTI's.

    I did say they get complex. :D

    You're looking at around $2,000 for an inverter-charger.
  • RandomJoe
    RandomJoe Solar Expert Posts: 472 ✭✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??

    You might also better define "small 12V system"! If you mean "small cabin" size, especially if you are going to be *relying* on it, the inverter/charger could be worthwhile for its features and reliability - they tend to be pretty beefy compared to simpler inverter-only units.

    If, on the other hand, it's a very small hobby-type thing (such as my single 12V AGM and 130W panel for the ham radio bench) no an inverter/charger would be overkill! There are perfectly good inverters suitable for systems that size that cost far less. (I have a Morningstar SureSine 300 on mine, but I almost never use/need the inverter since most of the house is on an Outback inverter/charger with 48V battery bank. It's the "backup for the backup" so to speak! :-) )

    If you look at my automation system (link in my sig) you can see how my Outback system is laid out. I have grid power, the inverter/charger has a built-in transfer switch that selects grid or inverter for the "critical loads" sub panel. That happens either on a schedule, or if the grid goes down. I normally don't use the charger function, relying instead on solar to charge the batteries, but will switch it on if it's been a particularly gloomy week or when I want to equalize. Haven't had a long enough power outage to need to use the generator, but I have a manual transfer switch on the input of the inverter/charger to switch from grid power to a socket on the back patio so I can feed it with the generator if needed. I occasionally set it up just to be sure everything is working.

    All of this is doable with separate components, but the firmware in the better ones (Outback, Xantrex, etc) provide some nice features and flexibility.
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??

    The main benefit is that they use expensive components (such as transformer) for both inverting and charging. They can either invert, or use AC source (such as grid or generator) to charge batteries, but not both at the time. So, the cost is less than separate inverter and separate charger would cost together.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    The main benefit is that they use expensive components (such as transformer) for both inverting and charging. They can either invert, or use AC source (such as grid or generator) to charge batteries, but not both at the time. So, the cost is less than separate inverter and separate charger would cost together.

    No, the cost is not necessarily less than the separate components. Usually there is a big difference in the features between a standard inverter and an inverter-charger, so comparison is not straightforward.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??

    downside - if a section fails (control board, transfer relays, power FET's) the whole thing is out of order.
    Individual parts, if your charger fails, you still have an inverter in a different box.

    upside - generally well integrated, very stout charger for using the generator to charge batteries, saving fuel costs, less boxes to mount on wall.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??
    mike95490 wrote: »
    downside - if a section fails (control board, transfer relays, power FET's) the whole thing is out of order.
    Individual parts, if your charger fails, you still have an inverter in a different box.

    upside - generally well integrated, very stout charger for using the generator to charge batteries, saving fuel costs, less boxes to mount on wall.
    All true, One more con I'd add is that stand alone Inverters tend to be all on one board design that no one repairs. Even the multi board design are remove and replace though.

    Anyone here ever tried buy a 100 Amp @ 24 V stand alone charger ?? How much was it ??
  • Ralph Day
    Ralph Day Solar Expert Posts: 1,019 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??

    I have a 100 amp 48 volt lift truck charger, cost about $2K. But their charge algorithms are different than r/e bulk, absorb,float. Starts with highest amps, then reduces as voltage goes up (higher voltage for "absorb" too). Seldom used now. Have utility power to sloooowwww charge overnight instead of generator charge (why I bought the big charger to augment the inv/charger.

    ralph
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??
    Ralph Day wrote: »
    I have a 100 amp 48 volt lift truck charger, cost about $2K. But their charge algorithms are different than r/e bulk, absorb,float. Starts with highest amps, then reduces as voltage goes up (higher voltage for "absorb" too). Seldom used now. Have utility power to sloooowwww charge overnight instead of generator charge (why I bought the big charger to augment the inv/charger.

    ralph
    Right on, that was the point, generally a Inverter / Charger is a good deal when you get over 30 amps @ 24V- 48 V on the charger output even if you don't wire up the inverter output. 12 volt, maybe no as much till you get over 100 amps.
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??
    Ralph Day wrote: »
    Starts with highest amps, then reduces as voltage goes up (higher voltage for "absorb" too).

    Isn't this the same as RE? They also start with highest amps (called buk), then when they hit a certain voltage they reduce amps to maintain this voltage (called absorb).
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    Isn't this the same as RE? They also start with highest amps (called buk), then when they hit a certain voltage they reduce amps to maintain this voltage (called absorb).

    Magnum and Xantrex both do this "whack it with full current then adjust down". Outback does it the opposite way; gen picks up loads, then charger ramps up to maximum possible under settings. One more reason why Outbacks are better. :D (No, I do not sell them or anything else.)

    Usually you are looking at a difference in size: 2kW and under inverter mostly do not have built-in chargers. 2kW and over all the good ones do. Probably the smallest I-C unit is OB's FX2012 @ $1,700 which has an 80 Amp charger. Compare to a Samlex SA-2000 @ $800 plus Iota 75 Amp charger @ $211. Include the need for a MATE with the OB @ $214. OB total: $1,914. Samlex total: $1,011.

    The Outback is superior system, but is it $1,000 worth of superior? When you go up in power requirements the inverter-chargers become not only more economically feasible but also a necessity.
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??
    Magnum and Xantrex both do this "whack it with full current then adjust down". Outback does it the opposite way; gen picks up loads, then charger ramps up to maximum possible under settings. One more reason why Outbacks are better. (No, I do not sell them or anything else.)
    The Outback is the absolute best there is for a small generator just because of the ramp up and lack of overshoot, I have tried them all, it's the best.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??
    The Outback is the absolute best there is for a small generator just because of the ramp up and lack of overshoot, I have tried them all, it's the best.

    Totally agree. It handles other functions better too, and is no place near as 'buggy' as the Xantrex XW (but then few products are).
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??
    Outback does it the opposite way; gen picks up loads, ten charger ramps up to maximum possible under settings.

    How long does it take to ramp up to the maximum?
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    How long does it take to ramp up to the maximum?

    Seconds. Once the gen picks up the loads (instantaneously) it is already synched with the inverter which then goes to charge mode and you can watch the numbers run up 0-1-2-3-4-5 et cetera (Amps AC on the charger).
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??
    Seconds. Once the gen picks up the loads (instantaneously) it is already synched with the inverter which then goes to charge mode and you can watch the numbers run up 0-1-2-3-4-5 et cetera (Amps AC on the charger).

    XW6048 does exactly the same thing. Once the generator is connected, it takes about 40 seconds to get qualified. Then XW6048 transfers all the loads to the generator and waits about 5 seconds. Once the wait is over, it starts slowly increasing charging current. It takes about 5 more seconds to get to 80A.

    I added an additional 3 minute wait before the generator is connected to XW to let it warm up a bit.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    XW6048 does exactly the same thing. Once the generator is connected, it takes about 40 seconds to get qualified. Then XW6048 transfers all the loads to the generator and waits about 5 seconds. Once the wait is over, it starts slowly increasing charging current. It takes about 5 more seconds to get to 80A.

    I added an additional 3 minute wait before the generator is connected to XW to let it warm up a bit.

    That's not the same at all. The Outback qualifies the generator in a matter of AC cycles (programmable), far less than 40 seconds, switches loads seamlessly, and ramps the charger up to whatever maximum the generator can supply (loads first; charger second in priority). Mine hits 5 Amps in under 2 seconds.

    There have been numerous complaints on here about the XW whacking the generator with full charge current (and not just the maximum set) and then going down, often knocking the generator off-line because it can't take the full load. You would not see this with a large generator; only with a small one.

    The unfortunate truth is that the Xantrex XW inverter is #1 in owner complaints on this forum. We do not see so much negative feed back on any other inverter, even within the Xantrex line. Some people still sing praises of the XW because they have never experienced anything better. This hit to Brand X's reputation (they have built so many really good things too) is probably why Schneider decided to change the name to Conext, although I'm sure they have some other marketing excuse for it.
  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??

    I know that a lot of issues can be model specific and I hate to paint them with to broad a brush. What works great with my 20 kw is not so good with a Honda EU2000.

    Where I have had issues with Xantrex is the way they implement the ACin. It goes 5,10, 20, 25 30 amps, no 15 amps. I know that is based on breaker sizes. This doesn't work with a small generator. Another is they will set the charger amp limit 20,40, 60, 80, 100 % again doesn't work well with a small generator.

    The Magnum MM-1512 was the worst I ever tried. It would slam the charger wide open then drop back to the charger settings, that would fault the generator and knock everything out. It's charger limits are in 10% increments, not bad , but not the best

    The Outback GFX is perfect, I really cannot think of anything I would change, the generator support is the slickest thing ever. All it's limits are in increments of 1, .5 or .1 resolution, thats big thats big on a small generator to be able to dial just what you want.
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    ... XW6048 transfers all the loads to the generator and waits about 5 seconds. Once the wait is over, it starts slowly increasing charging current. It takes about 5 more seconds to get to 80A.

    80A is the level that I set for it. If I set 50A or 100A, it'll go to the desired level in about the same 5 seconds.
    That's not the same at all. The Outback ... switches loads seamlessly, and ramps the charger up to whatever maximum the generator can supply (loads first; charger second in priority). Mine hits 5 Amps in under 2 seconds.

    Comparing these descriptions, it looks that Outback doesn't wait before it start ramping up the charger and ramps faster (2 seconds compared to 5). Is that correct?

    I don't see this as a critical distinction. If anything, from the comparison, it appears that Outback loads the generator faster (i.e. more abrubt).
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    80A is the level that I set for it. If I set 50A or 100A, it'll go to the desired level in about the same 5 seconds.



    Comparing these descriptions, it looks that Outback doesn't wait before it start ramping up the charger and ramps faster (2 seconds compared to 5). Is that correct?

    I don't see this as a critical distinction. If anything, from the comparison, it appears that Outback loads the generator faster (i.e. more abrubt).

    The wait time is programmable so you can set it to what you want. Warm up for a gas gen is not as long as for a diesel, for example. Nor is warm up in Summer as long as in Winter. This flexibility is the hallmark of Outback. Pity it comes with a pretty steep price per Watt.
    It does ramp up quicker too. And it's operation method is more suitable to small generators than Xantrex's (as per Blackcherry's notation).
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??
    This flexibility is the hallmark of Outback.

    Xantrex is definitely lacking on this front. It took me a while until I found acceptable settings. But it works fine now. The hardware is extremely good (I'll post later on my efficiency measurements) and if they had a clever programmer, it would be excellent inverter. But I think their current policy is to restrict everything to minimize user's errors. Sort of like Microsoft.

    Unlike BC's, mine allow changing AC size in increments of 1, which I like. But I set it to 45 for Generac and 20 for Champion. LOL!
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??
    ...
    Where I have had issues with Xantrex is the way they implement the ACin. It goes 5,10, 20, 25 30 amps, no 15 amps. I know that is based on breaker sizes. This doesn't work with a small generator. Another is they will set the charger amp limit 20,40, 60, 80, 100 % again doesn't work well with a small generator.......

    Very odd. Mine, with the SCP, goes in 1 amp increments. Used to use it to increase AC2, 1-3 amps at a time, to ramp up load on the generator as it warmed. With the ComBox, I get .1 amp increments. Now I'm using GenSupport instead of plain charging, which still takes 90 sec (or whatever) to qualify the AC, then quits inverting, transfers loads to the generator, and uses the rest of the allowed generator power to charge at 1-100% rate you set, in steps of 1%
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Blackcherry04
    Blackcherry04 Solar Expert Posts: 2,490 ✭✭✭
    Re: Can anyone explain to me the benefits of an inverter/charger all in one unit??
    mike95490 wrote: »
    Very odd. Mine, with the SCP, goes in 1 amp increments. Used to use it to increase AC2, 1-3 amps at a time, to ramp up load on the generator as it warmed. With the ComBox, I get .1 amp increments. Now I'm using GenSupport instead of plain charging, which still takes 90 sec (or whatever) to qualify the AC, then quits inverting, transfers loads to the generator, and uses the rest of the allowed generator power to charge at 1-100% rate you set, in steps of 1%
    I guess since you have a XW system ( not considered small by me ) is doesn't really apply to you. I have a SW series thats 10 years old and I said it probably more series specific. I know some think that the XW6048 is the only Inverter / Charger Xantrex makes. This years SW 3024 should not be confused with lasts year SW 3000-24 that used a SCP that the new SW will not recognize without updated firmware. The SW 4024 uses a total different SCP and accepts the combox. All these models have different levels of resolution in the settings.
    .