aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

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solar_dave
solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
The saga begins, I have yet to see any of the details on this proposal.
july 11, 2013​

aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

APS will submit a plan tomorrow at the Arizona Corporation Commission (ACC) that, if adopted, will foster a sustainable, fair and broad-based solar energy future for Arizona.

The plan is built around two options, either of which would ensure that APS customers who choose rooftop solar in the future will be compensated fairly for the electricity they generate and pay a fair price for their use of the electricity grid.


Under the “Net Metering” option, future rooftop solar customers would be compensated through the current “net metering” structure, and would pay a charge for their use of the grid, based on how much electricity they use.
Under the “Bill Credit” option, net metering would be replaced by a bill credit given to solar customers for the energy they generate, at a price set by the ACC and based on the market rates APS pays other generators for power.
The plan applies only to residential customers, because business customer rates already are designed to fairly reflect their use of the grid.
APS also supports increasing the up-front cash incentives for customers who choose solar, enabling rooftop solar to continue thriving in Arizona.

“As a national leader in utility-scale solar, we believe APS can help make Arizona the solar capital of America,” said APS Chairman and CEO Don Brandt. “One of our responsibilities is to make sure the infrastructure is in place to support a future of rapidly increasing solar adoption.”

Today’s rooftop solar customers benefit from a reliable electricity grid that ensures they have the power they need, whenever they need it – at night, in the rain, or when it is so hot they need additional power to run their air conditioners. These customers also use the grid to sell power back into the system when they have more than they can use.

Under current rules, rooftop solar customers are allowed to use the grid essentially for free. As a result, customers who can’t afford solar panels, don’t have a suitable place to put them, or simply don’t want rooftop solar end up paying higher rates. As the number of customers installing solar goes up, it drives rates even higher for non-solar customers, making the problem more difficult to solve.
“As more customers install solar on their homes, it becomes even more important that everyone who uses the grid shares in the cost of keeping it operating reliably for the future,” said Brandt.

Customers who already have installed rooftop solar, along with those who have submitted an application to interconnect a system by mid-October, would be given a 20-year grace period before the new policy takes effect. This grandfathering provision will help protect their long-term commitment to solar.

APS also is supporting an increase in the up-front cash incentive that makes rooftop solar a more affordable option for customers who want to “go solar.”
“We support an incentive program for rooftop solar that is transparent, reviewed frequently by the ACC, and shared fairly among customers,” said Mark Schiavoni, APS executive vice president of Operations.

“Either of the options we have proposed, together with the up-front incentives, preserves the choice for customers to install solar and makes rooftop solar an ongoing sustainable resource, which is not the case today,” said Schiavoni. “Solar customers will be compensated fairly for their solar energy while paying their fair share of the cost of the grid. The result is a system that allows all customers to benefit from solar energy in Arizona.”

I will probably be gone in 20 years.
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  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

    This is such nice PR. Give me a break. When the utilities start paying their fair share of all the pollution they cause, I won't mind paying my fair share of the grid infrastructure. Utilities are subsidized in many ways in order to make energy affordable, and the net metering rule is a cornerstone of the solar industry designed to help clean sustainable energy be affordable. APS wants to invoke "fairness" in an effort to recover revenue lost to solar power? How about they start paying the fair cost of all the CO2 generated? These short sighted politicians that got into the corporation commission just don't get it that we need to move away from burning coal and nuclear and support clean, unlimited solar power so that it can develop into the mainstay energy we need. Looks like we're going to have a land rush in Arizona until Oct 15.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

    I wonder how their campaign contributions looked at the last election?

    I bet this goes through without a hitch. That 20 year grandfather clause, while nice for me and the existing users, it could easily disappear on the final version.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

    brandt is full of it that it raises the rates others will pay. i guess if everybody conserved 5% of their power he's saying that he will charge you more anyway for you're supposed to only get charged for what you use. this guy is trying to control the solar industry and may be guilty of price fixing by saying you will get charged no matter what.

    we already addressed the grid use crap as the customer who is using the electricity gets an appropriate bill from them for the use of that grid no matter where that power comes from. to charge the generation source as well for the grid use is double billing as it is billing both generator and user for the same electric at the same time.

    are there any voices fighting these idiots in these meetings or are they the lone voice?
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona
    solarix wrote: »
    Utilities are subsidized in many ways in order to make energy affordable ... How about they start paying the fair cost of all the CO2 generated?

    Then they will have to be subsidized even more :p

    Government can spend as much money on their subsidies as they want until they run out of it. Then ... there will be something else.

    Uncertain the future is.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona
    niel wrote: »
    brandt is full of it that it raises the rates others will pay. i guess if everybody conserved 5% of their power he's saying that he will charge you more anyway for you're supposed to only get charged for what you use. this guy is trying to control the solar industry and may be guilty of price fixing by saying you will get charged no matter what.

    we already addressed the grid use crap as the customer who is using the electricity gets an appropriate bill from them for the use of that grid no matter where that power comes from. to charge the generation source as well for the grid use is double billing as it is billing both generator and user for the same electric at the same time.

    are there any voices fighting these idiots in these meetings or are they the lone voice?

    These guys are the fighting voice.

    http://dontkillsolar.com/site/
    T.U.S.K., Tell Utilities Solar won't be Killed, is dedicated to keeping the solar industry viable in Arizona & keeping energy costs lower through competition.

    Our Chairman, Barry Goldwater Jr.

    "As a son of Arizona, I know we have no greater resource than our sun. Republicans want the freedom to make the best choice and the competition to drive down rates.That choice may mean they save money, and with solar that is the case. Solar companies have a track record of aggressively reducing costs in Arizona. We can't let solar energy - and all its advantages and benefits it provides us - be pushed aside by monopolies wanting to limit energy choice. That's not the conservative way and it's not the American way."

    The Issue

    Arizona Public Service wants to extinguish the independent rooftop solar market in Arizona to protect its monopoly. How? They want to eliminate the policy that lets homeowners get fair credit for the surplus power they return to the grid. This is called net metering and it's successful in 43 states. APS wants the Arizona Corporation Commission to change the rules so the utility can keep homeowners' excess solar energy for free while maintaining its monopoly status.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

    "Fair" is not a number. In this instance it is not two numbers. :roll:
  • Ian S
    Ian S Solar Expert Posts: 35 ✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

    According to today's Arizona Republic, APS wants to institute special service fees on solar customers that would add $50 to $100 or more per month. That will effectively kill residential solar here. I'm going to contact that TUSK outfit to get involved. Here's the article.

    Oh-oh, the plot thickens now that it looks like the Koch brothers are involved.
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona
    Ian S wrote: »
    According to today's Arizona Republic, APS wants to institute special service fees on solar customers that would add $50 to $100 or more per month.

    That is more expensive than maintaning batteries. For $1,200 per year you can buy a lot of batteries. Such a high fee may push some of the solar customers off-grid.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    That is more expensive than maintaning batteries. For $1,200 per year you can buy a lot of batteries. Such a high fee may push some of the solar customers off-grid.

    Yep and if they are heavy duty like fork lift ones they will last, My problem is I don't have enough panels to support my peak Months consumption and the moving forward of early year net-metering lets me have a smaller panel setup than I need to support the peak loads by drawing off my "bank" of kWh.

    Personally I think APS is going to sell at least of a chunk of this to the ACC. They already got the LFCR put in place for everyone because of conservation.
    lost fixed cost recovery (lfcr)

    In May 2012, the Arizona Corporation Commission (ACC) approved new rates for APS. Because more customers are installing renewable energy systems such as solar and wind, and energy efficiency measures such as compact fluorescent light bulbs and refrigerator recycling, APS is selling less electricity, but fixed costs remain. APS is allowed to implement a new charge to recover a portion of the fixed costs.
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona
    solar_dave wrote: »
    Yep and if they are heavy duty like fork lift ones they will last, My problem is I don't have enough panels to support my peak Months consumption and the moving forward of early year net-metering lets me have a smaller panel setup than I need to support the peak loads by drawing off my "bank" of kWh.

    The fee might only apply if you're backfeeding. You may be able to draw from grid without the fee.
  • Peter_V
    Peter_V Solar Expert Posts: 226 ✭✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona
    Ian S wrote: »
    According to today's Arizona Republic, APS wants to institute special service fees on solar customers that would add $50 to $100 or more per month. That will effectively kill residential solar here. I'm going to contact that TUSK outfit to get involved. Here's the article.

    Oh-oh, the plot thickens now that it looks like the Koch brothers are involved.

    $50-$100 a month? That was what my total power bill was before installing solar. What the heck do they need to charge that much for?

    I'm not on APS, but my power company charges me a basic service fee ($8.25 a month) plus an additional net meter fee ($2.70) which seems to me to be plenty to cover the grid costs. Especially when you consider that they basically pay me wholesale for any extra power I generate which goes directly to power my neighbors houses WITHOUT the long haul line losses they would normally have. I.e. the loss between my house and my neighbors hose is probably 0.5% as apposed to the 25% or so they are losing shipping the power across 80+ miles of lines running at 300% of designed capacity.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    That is more expensive than maintaning batteries. For $1,200 per year you can buy a lot of batteries. Such a high fee may push some of the solar customers off-grid.

    and accordingly they will up the charges on those remaining customers as in they get their money no matter what. i guess they haven't heard of shutting down unneeded generators either? using their own angle on the poor, if the rich moved out leaving only the poor there to use electric, they would still up the rates gouging the poor and it is aps that is robbing the poor and everybody else and not those on solar.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

    Let's borrow and paraphrase from the Department of Agriculture during the Reagan Administration:

    "As long as any electric company is still making a profit the price of electricity is still too high."

    How would they like that for policy? We all know it's about profit and nothing else as far as they are concerned.

    (No, I did not invent it: it was originally said back then of the dairy farms and the price of milk.)
  • Eric L
    Eric L Solar Expert Posts: 262 ✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona
    $50-$100 a month? That was what my total power bill was before installing solar. What the heck do they need to charge that much for?

    The big round numbers are a tell here too. This is an industry where penny-increment changes in billing are carefully calculated and fought hard for. But we're supposed to think that this huge round-number range is credible?

    So how are we supposed to believe the meeting between APS and the utility commission is supposed to go?:

    "We need to cover our infrastructure costs with the rise of residential renewable energy. I've got it, let's charge them an extra $50 per month. No, wait! $100!".

    Pull the other one.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

    Private companies always love those "cost plus" contracts/pricing models that government public utility commissions seems to use. Wonder why. :p

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

    Well I am stilling looking for the specific details of there proposal, I suspect the less you use the more they will charge.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

    Here is a fairly long article and I think they are trying to get more detail of of the proposals.

    http://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/news/2013/07/11/aps-to-bring-two-net-metering-plans-to.html?page=all
    APS has offered two options. The first would keep net metering in place but push solar users to a new rate plan that would include more fixed costs based on their peak power use.

    The way APS’ rate structure works currently is that all its costs — from operations and maintenance to power plants and transmission — is captured through use charges on the residential side. The utility’s challenge, officials said, is that as solar customers use less power, they aren’t paying enough to compensate and more costs are being borne by other ratepayers.

    “What happens is you still have to take service from APS,” said Jeff Guldner, senior vice president of customers and regulation for APS. “How do you value the fair costs for fair use?”

    With 18,000 customers currently on solar, APS estimates it is shifting $1,000 a year in costs from solar customers to non-solar customers, or about $18 million annually. That would amount to a couple dollars per month based on APS’ 1.1 million customers.

    Some of those costs are captured through a method already granted to APS through its last rate case, known as the lost fixed cost recovery tariff.

    One way of straighten that out would be to require solar customers to pay a fixed cost said Chuck Miessner, pricing manager for APS.

    “You’re collecting the same amount of money from the house, you’re just shifting it to fixed costs,” he said.

    The other avenue APS has offered is to ditch net metering altogether and rely on a bill credit, where a customer would use the utility’s power, and the solar power would go directly onto the grid. The customer would then receive a credit for how much power it supplied.


    The difference in this model is that the utility would buy power from solar systems at wholesale rates, about 4 cents per kilowatt-hour, but sell power to its customers at retail rates that, depending on the time of year, could easily double that charge.
    Lower payments and incentives

    Solar customers will see lower bill credits and payments under both incentives. APS officials said the utility was paying between 15 and 16 cents per kilowatt-hour at current net meter rates. Under the proposal keeping net metering, they estimate they will pay out between 6 and 10 cents per kilowatt hour. Under the bill credit plan, it will be about 4 cents per kilowatt-hour.

    Two additional ideas are key to both proposals. The first is that additional incentives would be needed upfront to keep a solar market going, Guldner said.

    “In order to make it work for a solar customer, we’re going to have a higher up-front incentive,” he said.

    APS will not offer a recommended incentive. Greg Bernosky, APS renewable energy program manager, said they will leave that up to commissioners to decided in the utility’s annual plan for how it is meeting the renewable energy standard.

    However, APS already has enough residential rooftop solar to meet its mandates under the state requirements through 2016. That would, in theory, allow the ACC to approve no incentives for the next three years.

    Guldner said APS believes the incentive amount is a policy decision best left to regulators.

    “You don’t want to try to pick the number, because you’ll be too high or too low,” he said. “What regulators will have to do is decide what is in the budget.”

    That would include ways to increase the incentive if demand slackens, and lower it if it is too robust, Guldner said.

    The second key is that neither program would affect current solar owners. The ACC has been inundated with comments against changing the net metering program, particularly from those who bought or leased solar systems.

    APS officials said they decided to grandfather in the current solar systems because many have 20-year leases and making such a change could mean those solar customers would be paying more for solar and APS power combined than they would with just APS power.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

    They are high on crack, The excess power delivered to the grid goes no father than the local transformer, but they get to charge full costs, include transmission and delivery fees to my neighbors for that power. Granted they have to give me the power back later but $0.04 is a generating cost not a delivered price. Local generation is much more effective for them financially.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

    Next--A group of customers in a city block with form a "co-op" and spread the connection fee across 4-10 houses... Then the city/puc/utility will make local co-ops illegal. One of the members of a co-op will be a lawyer and sue the utility/puc/city and get the anti-co-op regulations thrown out. Then puc/utility will create new fixed charge base that treats the homes like businesses and double their charges to subsidize low income homes/customers. Former co-op members will throw in the towel, 1/2 will go back on utility power and the other 1/2 will go off grid (lots of insulation, etc.). PUC will make former customers pay for 20-40 year utility investments (stranding charges) which will be about 1/2 of the utility bill. And the local AHJ/Cities will ban the storage of fuel/use of backup generators in non-commercial uses. In the mean time, city will pass law that all homes without utility connections will be red tagged.

    Human nature vs government nature.

    I think I have that about right.

    -Bill :p
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • solarix
    solarix Solar Expert Posts: 713 ✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

    There are lots of ways to think about this issue. Of course, each party has a different interest and therefore a different conclusion. Utilities are trying to stay viable and apportion their costs "fairly" and solar people are trying to stay viable and leverage their belief that clean, unlimited power is worth subsidizing. "Fairness" as a decision parameter leaves out any foresight for the future. What we need is a vision for the future (admitedly a difficult thing to do) and then a plan to get us there. This is what Arizona's RES program is -a goal of having 15% renewable power by 2025 and a plan for getting there. Just because it has been so successful that we are ahead of schedule is no reason to cripple the solar industry in order to meet the quota. ACC should if anything, be encouraged by the success and speed up the program to achieve the goal sooner. The problem then is how to adapt the old business model of the utilities to the new disruptions of distributed power.
    I noticed long ago that APS had segregated its itemized charges between power generation costs and distribution fees. Solar eliminates the generation but not the distribution and until some kind of affordable storage option comes about, we still need the distribution capability of the grid. I don't mind paying for that - it is worth it to not have batteries. Go ahead and up the basic service fee (currently $8 or $18 per month) but don't disincentivize solar generation by whacking the net-metering dynamic. If the credit for excess generation is reduced to wholesale levels, it will have the effect of substantially reducing the cost-effective system size. What is now the typical size GT system of 5kW producing say 85% of a home's energy, will reduce to maybe a 2 to 3 kW size in order to not over generate. This small of a system is generally not a positive cash flow deal under a lease and will crater the affordability of solar. We'll be back to servicing the "solar elite" and the pay-as-you-go customer will be gone. Hopefully the ACC and the utilities can get a vision for the future with a plan that works for all, and not just do what is "fair" (in the eyes of APS) for today.
    Not to mention the argument that the Harvard school of medicine puts the detrimental impacts of burning coal at about 300 to 500 Billion dollars annually. (chge.med.harvard.edu/resource/explore-true-costs-coal) How about factoring in the "fair" cost of that?
  • Ian S
    Ian S Solar Expert Posts: 35 ✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona
    solar_dave wrote: »
    The saga begins, I have yet to see any of the details on this proposal.



    I will probably be gone in 20 years.
    I just checked into this. APS has been a little sly about this whole grandfathering thing and you can't get a definitive answer without reading the 131 page ACC pdf filing. Suffice it to say, the grandfathering only extends to the current owner. If you sell the home, the grandfathering is not transferable:
    The grandfathering would extend for a maximum of 20 years from the effective date of the Commission's decision in this matter and would not be transferable to a new customer at the same premise.
    That's significant because it will seriously detract from your home's value. In the case of a zero-down lease, you could easily be in the position of negotiating a sale where the new owner will pay MORE for electricity with the solar system than without.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona
    Ian S wrote: »
    I just checked into this. APS has been a little sly about this whole grandfathering thing and you can't get a definitive answer without reading the 131 page ACC pdf filing. Suffice it to say, the grandfathering only extends to the current owner. If you sell the home, the grandfathering is not transferable:

    That's significant because it will seriously detract from your home's value. In the case of a zero-down lease, you could easily be in the position of negotiating a sale where the new owner will pay MORE for electricity with the solar system than without.

    Thanks for finding the PDF, I checked the ACC site a few days ago looking for it.
  • YehoshuaAgapao
    YehoshuaAgapao Solar Expert Posts: 280 ✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona
    Peter_V wrote: »
    $50-$100 a month? That was what my total power bill was before installing solar. What the heck do they need to charge that much for?

    I'm not on APS, but my power company charges me a basic service fee ($8.25 a month) plus an additional net meter fee ($2.70) which seems to me to be plenty to cover the grid costs. Especially when you consider that they basically pay me wholesale for any extra power I generate which goes directly to power my neighbors houses WITHOUT the long haul line losses they would normally have. I.e. the loss between my house and my neighbors hose is probably 0.5% as apposed to the 25% or so they are losing shipping the power across 80+ miles of lines running at 300% of designed capacity.

    Wonder if SRP will follow along if APS gets this approved?

    APS probably don't have community solar. Wonder how SRP will work it with their community solar customers if SRP follows suit. I have 4 blocks (4KW STC) of community solar on top of operating my battery-based bi-modal rooftop system that is pre-designed to be expanded to double its size (PV and inverter only).

    I think it makes more sense to eliminate net-metering carryover as opposed to adding a hefty monthly charge (net-meter to a single month or even day instead of the entire fiscal year). This will keep people installing solar mostly for trimming their bills maintaining their ROI while solar lovers would probably still get near-zero, net-zero, or above-zero large systems regardless. I got a battery based system to prepare for the effects of hyperinflation and draconian government intervention will have on the national power grid but while I wait, I load-shift on-peak hours and hoard credits during swamp cooler months to use during air conditioning months (Almost all of July, most of August, some of September). Eliminating full-year carryover net metering actually would benefit APS more than SRP because APS uses calendar year fiscal years while SRP's fiscal years ends on April 30. SRP is much less unfriendly to exploitation of net-metering carryover for air conditioning season as there is only two months to hoard. APS has January through June to hoard credits for air conditioning season - 6 months for APS as opposed to 2 months for SRP (May and June are hot but are super-dry for swamp coolers). SRP's Q2 fiscal years automatically bails them out of 4 months of net-metering carryover exploitation - the excess credits get cashed out at wholesale at the end of the fiscal year, which for SRP it is right when it starts to get hot.
  • YehoshuaAgapao
    YehoshuaAgapao Solar Expert Posts: 280 ✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    The fee might only apply if you're backfeeding. You may be able to draw from grid without the fee.

    Batteryless grid-tie systems must backfeed. No way around it.

    Battery based Outback Radian based Bi-modal systems have a true mini-grid mode. Battery based Xantrex XW based Bi-modal systems do not have true mini-grid operation, but it can run on grid support without selling to the grid, but it can go partially off-grid while connected to the grid with the load shave feature. Load shave doesn't get along with selling/backfeeding - the charge controllers have to be sleeping. Xantrex's Load shave feature was designed with the California power crisis in mind (rolling blackouts without a generator - because of emissions restrictions) and not off-gridding in mind. AC coupled battery backup systems are designed for battery backup and they probably do not support mini-grid or load shave.
  • YehoshuaAgapao
    YehoshuaAgapao Solar Expert Posts: 280 ✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona
    solar_dave wrote: »
    They are high on crack, The excess power delivered to the grid goes no father than the local transformer, but they get to charge full costs, include transmission and delivery fees to my neighbors for that power. Granted they have to give me the power back later but $0.04 is a generating cost not a delivered price. Local generation is much more effective for them financially.

    During air conditioner months, all power being sold by my inverter travels a couple breakers across the bus bar in the main panel and gets sucked up by the air conditioner. During swamp cooler months, power being sold rolls back my meter, but just goes to the neighbor's meter and into his air conditioner breaker. The transformer feeding my house feeds at least my house and the neighbor to my east. Not sure how many other houses it goes to. Could be all of park place section 7 for all I know. The entire south and east wall of my property has underground SRP power lines running near them, marked with 3 big red lines by Blue Stake.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona

    Rare that I find myself defending utility companies but ...

    We have to clear up this business of "the power I generate just goes next door to the neighbour so why should we have all these fees/charges?" The utility has all those wires in place everywhere and can't really keep track of your power going from your house to the neighbour. It isn't even relevant. The base charges are paying for the infrastructure across the whole of the company's grid, divided out equally among everyone who has any connection to it for any reason. As such they have the right to charge for you using their wire to send power next door, so to speak. It's when they declare they have the right to charge you for their wires when you don't use them that you should start complaining.

    If you want to skip the utility's wires, run your own. And good luck with that.
  • solar_dave
    solar_dave Solar Expert Posts: 2,397 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona
    Rare that I find myself defending utility companies but ...

    We have to clear up this business of "the power I generate just goes next door to the neighbour so why should we have all these fees/charges?" The utility has all those wires in place everywhere and can't really keep track of your power going from your house to the neighbour. It isn't even relevant. The base charges are paying for the infrastructure across the whole of the company's grid, divided out equally among everyone who has any connection to it for any reason. As such they have the right to charge for you using their wire to send power next door, so to speak. It's when they declare they have the right to charge you for their wires when you don't use them that you should start complaining.

    If you want to skip the utility's wires, run your own. And good luck with that.

    Then the tariffs should reflect that as a base charge, not part of a kWh increment. The kWh increments should be transmission and generation only! If they need infrastructure spread equally per attachment the tariff should reflect that item for everyone and not be an incremental extra charge on a solar user.

    Of course the electric potential is certain that the power doesn't go far, and they get paid for a full long line transmission by the adjoining properties, why should they be allowed to double dip on the transmission fees? They get paid with no real transmission once when I deliver it to them. Now they want me to pay it again when I ask for it back?
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona
    solar_dave wrote: »
    Then the tariffs should reflect that as a base charge, not part of a kWh increment. The kWh increments should be transmission and generation only! If they need infrastructure spread equally per attachment the tariff should reflect that item for everyone and not be an incremental extra charge on a solar user.

    Agreed. There is no extra cost involved in transmitting surplus solar generation to anywhere. It's not like they're having to put up new lines and transformers to accommodate a massive increase in power generation from individual houses.

    And in fact this is what is happening with many utilities: the base charges are going up even though the per kW hour charges aren't whether or not the household has solar. Part of this is due to the conservation efforts which they claim have reduced income necessitating increased fees to cover fixed costs. This is understandable, but it does mean the more you conserve the more you pay per kW hour when those fees are included. Part of it is also the regulations, which vary from place to place, that govern how the charges can be broken down and adjusted.

    It comes back to that word 'fair' and who is defining the term. Oddly enough consumers do not trust the utilities or the regulatory agencies to be fair in respect to the end user. Now why do you suppose that is? :roll:
  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona
    solar_dave wrote: »
    Of course the electric potential is certain that the power doesn't go far, and they get paid for a full long line transmission by the adjoining properties, why should they be allowed to double dip on the transmission fees? They get paid with no real transmission once when I deliver it to them. Now they want me to pay it again when I ask for it back?

    Prices are determined by supply and demand. The load-shifting service that they provide is very valuable. If not for them, you would need to buy, install and maintain batteries. Their service is better than batteries, so the wise thing for them would be to charge slightly more that you would pay for using batteries. That's what they would do if not for the government. And you would have to pay that or stop using this service. The government forces much lower prices, which cripples the electrical company and is beneficial for you. How can you see this as unfair?

    Their inner workings of electric company shouldn't be of any concern. When you come to a grocery store you don't worry about their costs. You just buy, or you don't buy. Why should it be any different for the electric company?
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: aps plan offers sustainable, fair solar choice for arizona
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    Their inner workings of electric company shouldn't be of any concern. When you come to a grocery store you don't worry about their costs. You just buy, or you don't buy. Why should it be any different for the electric company?

    Maybe because if you don't like the price at Safeway you can go across the street to Save On Foods but if you don't like what BC Hydro charges ... too bad.

    Hence the need for government regulation which has the amazing ability to be unfair to both the utility company and the consumer at the same time.

    All of which is exacerbated by having different regulations depending on state/province for the various utilities which interconnect across the whole continent. If you are going to have something that widespread which ties all points together it needs to act under the same rules everywhere. Unfortunately it doesn't. (The same can be said for roads and motor vehicle regulations.)