Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

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northerner
northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
A company in Pittsburg is about to begin manufacturing a sodium ion based battery that they claim will offer better cycle life than comparable lead acid batteries, and through the use of non toxic materials. Axion Energy has come up with a battery that uses sodium sulphate as the electrolyte, and carbon and manganese dioxide as the plates. They claim a less than 10 % capacity fade after 5000 cycles to over 50% DOD. They also say that these batteries can be kept at a partial state of charge for long periods without damage. They are also fault tolerant, with no risk of fire or explosion, if short circuited, and are tolerant of higher temperatures without affecting lifetime or performance. Here is there site:

http://www.aquionenergy.com/technology/
http://triblive.com/business/headlines/3032248-74/aquion-energy-batteries#axzz2MK8wAAyy

Efficiency is as good or better than most lead acid batteries as well. Sounds very promising, and time will tell.

There are other approaches that also sound promising, but still no product. Lead acid has not been displaced yet!
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #2
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    Don't these need to run at about 550F to stay liquid ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #3
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    mike95490 wrote: »
    Don't these need to run at about 550F to stay liquid ?

    Your thinking of molten salt batteries (such as sodium sulfur) which these are not. These ones operate at room temperature.
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #4
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    northerner wrote: »
    Your thinking of molten salt batteries (such as sodium sulfur) which these are not. These ones operate at room temperature.
    How expensive are they and what is their energy density in A-h/lb?
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #5
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    ggunn wrote: »
    How expensive are they and what is their energy density in A-h/lb?

    The company claims the batteries will be cost competitive with existing storage. I do believe they put out a figure of about $300 per kwh, but don't quote me on that. Energy density is low, so they are not designed for mobile applications. Biggest benefits are longer life span than lead acid and the fact you can run them for long periods at at partial state of charge without degradation.
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  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    #6
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    northerner wrote: »
    The company claims the batteries will be cost competitive with existing storage. I do believe they put out a figure of about $300 per kwh, but don't quote me on that. Energy density is low, so they are not designed for mobile applications. Biggest benefits are longer life span than lead acid and the fact you can run them for long periods at at partial state of charge without degradation.
    When I was new to solar and working for the company I was with at the time on a battery backed up system (which was an unmitigated disaster, but that's another story), I got the rude awakening that I guess we all get when we first take a good look at the energy density of batteries. When we brought in the Hawker 1000A-h 48V battery on the forklift and I saw how big it was and how much it weighed, and then ran the numbers and figured out that it held only about two bucks' worth of usable energy, I was appalled.
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  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #7
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    it's not so much $ per KWh, it's
    ( $ per KWh / expected useful cycles ) + maintenance.

    For fixed locations, who cares about weight or volume, will the lights stay on it the winter on cloudy day #3
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #8
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    mike95490 wrote: »
    it's not so much $ per KWh, it's
    ( $ per KWh / expected useful cycles ) + maintenance.

    For fixed locations, who cares about weight or volume, will the lights stay on it the winter on cloudy day #3

    Agreed, but I was responding to someone who asked about the expense of the batteries, ie purchase price. Going by the companies specs, these batteries will be a great deal if they live a long life and require little maintenance as they state. Purchase price of the batteries is also a significant factor. Need look no further than lithium batteries. They are far too costly to purchase even considering their longer cycle life and little maintenance required.
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  • YehoshuaAgapao
    YehoshuaAgapao Solar Expert Posts: 280 ✭✭
    #9
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    Here's the wikipedia on these sodium ion batteries

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery

    Seems they are going to be more expensive than lead-acid but cheaper than Li-ION. Cycle life will probably make or break it.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #10
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    YehoshuaAgapao wrote: »
    Here's the wikipedia on these sodium ion batteries

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-ion_battery

    Seems they are going to be more expensive than lead-acid but cheaper than Li-ION. Cycle life will probably make or break it.

    Cycle life and the fact that there's no worry about keeping the battery at a reduced state of charge (ie no sulfation and or course relates to cycle life) Also, they are safer and involve no toxic materials. If they were available now, I would be getting them!
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  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    #11
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    There's an interesting kickstarter project looking for funding for a cheap and novel flywheel based system: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1340066560/velkess-energy-storage
    Usually with kickstarter, if you contribute substantial funds to the project then you can at least get one of the first systems off the production line, but in this case, all you get is lunch and a few goodies, no actual device. Boo.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,447 admin
    #12
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    A few threads related to flywheels:

    Power grid change may disrupt clocks
    Flywheel based electrical storage (and the eventually failure of the company in 2011)

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #13
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    Universal caveat: don't believe in things you see promoted on kickstarter.

    That whole site is practically nothing but one big scam.

    We should probably delete links to it as a public service.

    Yeah, I'm cynical.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #14
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    Here is an interesting talk that the founder of Aquion Energy gives about the development of the sodium ion battery.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vaMuxB4s5qI

    Aquion recently received more funding ($35 million) for the manufacturing facility which is soon to start up, including funds from Bill Gates.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #15
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    Aquion Energy now has battery products listed on their website. No indication of price at this point, but a salesperson can be contacted.

    They list an AE1 battery stack, that has 1.3 kwh of storage and weighs about 120 kg.

    Key characteristics are they are safe, reliable, sustainable and cost effective. They require no maintenance and have a very long cycle life. And they can be discharged 100% with minimal degradation.

    http://www.aquionenergy.com/energy-storage-battery
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  • SandyP
    SandyP Solar Expert Posts: 65 ✭✭
    #16
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    A company in Western Australia is now selling LiFePo battery pack with associated BMS controllers etc.

    http://www.ev-power.com.au/-EV-Powerpak-Custom-LFP-Batteries-.html

    EV POWER PAK 12V MODELS
    MODEL VOLTS capacity kWhr len x wid x ht mm weight $Ex-GST

    EVP12V400A 12.8V 400Ah 5.12 450 x 290 x 300 58kg $2695
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #17
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    SandyP wrote: »
    A company in Western Australia is now selling LiFePo battery pack with associated BMS controllers etc.

    http://www.ev-power.com.au/-EV-Powerpak-Custom-LFP-Batteries-.html

    EV POWER PAK 12V MODELS
    MODEL VOLTS capacity kWhr len x wid x ht mm weight $Ex-GST

    EVP12V400A 12.8V 400Ah 5.12 450 x 290 x 300 58kg $2695

    Lithium based batteries are very expensive and their cycle life doesn't justify the cost. It is an alternative for those with deep pockets and who want a maintenance free battery.

    The sodium ion battery currently in production at Aquion is also maintenance free, but also will be very cost effective, due to lower cost and very long cycle life. The only disadvantage over other batteries that I see, is the relatively low energy density. One battery stack provides about 1.3 kwh of storage and the stack measures approximately 1 foot square by just over 3 feet high. In most applications, that won't be a big issue.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #18
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    Some more info about the Aquion Energy battery.

    http://www.sandia.gov/ess/docs/pr_conferences/2012/papers/Wednesday/Session2/04_Wiley_Aquion_PeerReviewPresentation.pdf

    Units are 7.6 volts at a full state of charge. A potential issue is that battery voltage varies considerably depending on the state of charge, as does efficiency.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #19
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    Aquion Energy will be fulfilling customer orders for batteries in the 1st quarter of 2014 with their Pennsylvania manufacturing plant. Manufacturing is expected to ramp up to 200 mwh of batteries per year by mid to late 2015.

    Here is a link to their blog with video: http://www.aquionenergy.com/blog
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #20
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    Northerner; what is your relationship with Aquion Energy? You seem to be promoting a product which is as yet non-existent. Stop.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #21
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    Northerner; what is your relationship with Aquion Energy? You seem to be promoting a product which is as yet non-existent. Stop.

    I have no relationship with Aquion and I apologize if I come across that way. I'm just looking for an alternative to lead acid batteries as the title implies, which are far less than perfect for storing energy. I'm sure many others are looking for a better alternative as well, and I'm sharing info about a product that soon will be available.

    Cariboocoot: is it forbidden to point out manufacturers of products on this site? If so I will stop immediately and no hard feelings. I have to say, I see plenty of conversation about other products and manufacturers on this site.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #22
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    The problem is you kept going on and on about these things which have not yet hit the retail market. This is a suspicious sort of behaviour; it is often used by 'shills' for companies and it tends to attract moderator attention.

    If you ever find these thing actually being retailed (complete with sales & delivery; not just promised) by all means let us know.

    But understand that I've seen plenty of promises of all sorts of fantastic technological improvements in batteries (and other things) but we're still using 100-year-old flooded lead-acid for the most part.

    In other words, don't get your hopes up.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #23
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    If you ever find these thing actually being retailed (complete with sales & delivery; not just promised) by all means let us know.

    You can speak to an Aquion salesperson at present according to their site. They are filling orders for delivery in early 2014. This is a real product and not just a promise.
    But understand that I've seen plenty of promises of all sorts of fantastic technological improvements in batteries (and other things) but we're still using 100-year-old flooded lead-acid for the most part.

    And it's about time something better is available to replace lead acid batteries. They are made of toxic materials, are hazardous to ship, are potentially dangerous in use if not handled properly, have issues with absorptions and in having to keep the battery charge state up most of the time, and most important of all have a limited cycle/shelf life.
    In other words, don't get your hopes up.

    Not. But will be planning to make an order for something better, when my lead acid batteries kick the bucket!
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #24
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    northerner wrote: »
    And it's about time something better is available to replace lead acid batteries.

    LiFePO4 may be a good candidate. I haven't found any bad things about them except price, which should go down soon.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #25
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    northerner wrote: »
    You can speak to an Aquion salesperson at present according to their site. They are filling orders for delivery in early 2014. This is a real product and not just a promise.

    You can speak to salesmen who will sell you bridges and swamps too. Means nothing until they can deliver.
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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    #26
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    northerner wrote: »
    You can speak to an Aquion salesperson at present according to their site. They are filling orders for delivery in early 2014. This is a real product and not just a promise.

    You can speak to salesmen who will sell you bridges and swamps too. Means nothing until they can deliver.
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #27
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    Cariboocoot wrote: »
    You can speak to salesmen who will sell you bridges and swamps too. Means nothing until they can deliver.

    Yes, that's true. Time will tell!
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #28
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    LiFePO4 may be a good candidate. I haven't found any bad things about them except price, which should go down soon.

    Originally, I had thought price of LiFePo4 were high due to the cost of lithium and relatively short supply, However, I'm hearing that the real reason is due to all the control electronics required to keep them safe. Even if price does come down, what will the potential cycle life be? And will they be cost competitive with lead acid?
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  • NorthGuy
    NorthGuy Solar Expert Posts: 1,913 ✭✭
    #29
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    northerner wrote: »
    Originally, I had thought price of LiFePo4 were high due to the cost of lithium and relatively short supply, However, I'm hearing that the real reason is due to all the control electronics required to keep them safe. Even if price does come down, what will the potential cycle life be? And will they be cost competitive with lead acid?

    In one of the recent threads, karrak said he maintains them without electronics.

    Some advertize 2000 cycles at 80% DoD.
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  • DavidOH
    DavidOH Solar Expert Posts: 112 ✭✭✭
    #30
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries

    Have you looked at Nickel-Iron ? http://ironedison.com/
    http://ironedison.com/renewable-energy-batteries
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  • northerner
    northerner Solar Expert Posts: 492 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #31
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    Re: Alternative to Lead Acid Batteries
    NorthGuy wrote: »
    In one of the recent threads, karrak said he maintains them without electronics.

    Some advertize 2000 cycles at 80% DoD.

    I think that will be surpassed with other technologies that will be here sooner rather than later. The day will come when a battery bank will last a lifetime, and at the same time give a good return on investment!
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