Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

Fullpower · January 2013

At the ripe young age of 15 months, I have one cell in a 24 Volt string of Rolls-Surrette S-1590 suddenly gone dead.
The Rolls bank, nominally rated 1200 Amp-Hours was put in service August of 2011.
. Upon initial ABS+ EQ, the log shows Specific Gravities all over the board, ranging from 1.26 as high as 1.34.
That is not a typo, one cell had S.G. of 1.34.
. Contact with Rolls customer service, left a Laissez-Faire recommendation, basicly they said run 'em a while, they should settle down.
Normal house loads range from 5 to 8 kilowatt-hours per day.
Normal range of discharge depth is 25%, have on 3 occasions gone down to 50%, and just once, after 9 days of steady rain,
took batteries 'Very Low'.
. Daily Absorb voltage is 29.6 plus Temperature correction Absorb time is 4 hours.

. Charge controllers are set to Auto EQ at 32 volts, for 2 hours every 28 days.

. Approximately every 2 or 3 months, As sun is available, I have run manual, supervised EQ for as long as 6 hours to get all cells up to 1.27
Battery SG are "spot checked" weekly, and normal range is down to 1.20 after a few cloudy days, but more normally in the 1.24 to 1.27 range.
Battery room temperature averages 50 degrees in summer, and as low as 25 degrees in winter.

Battery capacity has been as advertised, and loaded cell voltage had been well balanced,
until very suddenly, last week without warning hit the the inverter Low Battery Cut-off Voltage of 23 volts.

I have one cell dropping out: Cell 'A' at 1.5 volts (no load ), and S.G 1.05
I have isolated cell 'A' and put it on a 30 amp charge for about 30 hours, cell voltage has slowly come up to 2.2, vey slight bubbles, about one bubble every 8 or ten seconds.
The electrolyte is clear, and the cell is about 60 degrees F

. Reviewing my initial charge records, cell 'A' was one of the highest, with an initial SG of 1.31
cell 'A' has always been one of the 'hotter' cells, always ranking number 2 in the SG.

.Currently running the house on 11 cells.
The inverters don't seem to mind a bit,
the lowest I have seen is 21.6 volts when the well pump
cycled.
.
.SO, do you think Cell'A' can be brought back to life?
Given that ALL CURRENT in a series string is identical,Why should 1 cell in a series string die?
Do you suppose Rolls will warranty me a new cell?
should I buy another S-1590 in advance, and then if they send another, run 13 in series?

Photowhit · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

I believe they should be under full warranty and you should ask where to take it for exchange, explaine what you've done...

BB. · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

It sounds like a shorted cell... You have eleven cells that are working well and one dead--All series connected. I cannot see that you did anything to cause the issue unless that one cell was filled with salt water or something...

Just, a general question--Wonder what is going on. That is a pretty hot electrolyte concentration. And one person here swears that one of his cells was delivered with near pure water (but, perhaps it somehow failed like yours did sometime between the factor and his home).

Given that the other "hotter" cell is still working OK--Then that may be a false lead.

By the way, did that other cell's specific gravity "settle down"?

-Bill

Vic · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

Hi Fullpower,

Sorry to hear of the lazy cell.

There is SOME chance that this cell will come back, although some of this depends upon just how low, the bank was discharged for the 'very low' event. Below 20% SOC is very very hard on Flooded batts. Much below 50% SOC is not that good either.

If the electrolyte levels were at the correct levels when the SG readings were taken, and some cells were in the 1.340 range, then this can well be that the bank needs more cycling down to about the 60 - 50% SOC level. These Surrettes are characterized as needing to be worked. The impression that I get from Surrette is that most of their FLAs would best be cycled to about 50% SOC or a bit above just about every cycle -- just my opinion.

Know that in AK Winters, the solar does not do much work, even on the sunniest days, and an EU-3000 is not a lot of genset for a bank of this size. So, a discharge to 55% SOC would take a long slog for recharge, unless there is a larger genset available.

Would think that Surrette may well warranty this cell, but they would probably want you to try, and try again to get the SG back up to spec.

Have had a few Surrette cells with high-ish SGs, which appear to want a deeper DOD more often than they tend to get here, and align better with their neighbor cells when they get cycled to 55-60% SOC. In the case of these cycles, it is a very good to get the bank back to nominal 90% SOC within one day. Believe that these batts are shipped with 1.265 SG electrolyte, so returning to 1.260-65, temp comped should be fine. You need not hold out for 1.270, IMHO.

Good Luck, Vic

BB. · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

I would guess that, normally, the low SG cell(s) would be the first cell(s) to go to zero/reverse voltage (if a bank was being take towards zero state of charge). And most rechargeable batteries are "killed" when reversed charged (and lead acid batteries don't like being taken to zero volts anyway.

-Bill

Vic · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

BB Bill,

From the data at hand, it seems difficult to know just how low this bank was taken, and just what were the SGs of each individual cell. Taking any cell to 1.0 volts would be very bad. 0.5 worse, 0.0 horrible, reversing a cell is the end of the world and so on.

Some large off-grid battery banks are almost never cycled to 50%. This is not good for them, and have noted that lightly-cycled banks seem to often have a few cells that have high SGs, some are astonishingly high. One would expect that these high SG cells to experience the least amount of discharge in any but the deepest cycles. IMHO, this is just not good for them. Capacity is built from cycling the cells of the bank. So, it might be possible that in this case, the measured SG is not necessarily indicative of the capacity of that cell for a bank that is poorly exercised - what do I know?!

In cycling one of the banks here, one of the higher SG cells' SG (and terminal V) fell like a rock. Happened to be right there taking terminal V measurements, and terminated the discharge and began a recharge. BUT, this cell is now the lowest SG cell in the bank by about 15-20 points, and appears that it will never compeltely recover. Have not tried a 10 - 20 hour Corrective EQ on this one cell, as I do not have the time to monitor this process at the unattended site (do have a HB 2- 12 V manual charger, just no time to hand hold it)

Lotta intracies with almost any battery system. Just some of my experiences. Opinions, YMWV Vic

BB. · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

It would be nice to hear from the factory engineers/failure analsys reports and see what they say happened after the battery was taken apart/inspected...

Interesting about high SG cell being the weakest of the bunch... Any case, just pure guesswork on my part.

-Bill

Vic · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

Hi Bill,

Well with batteries, most of us are guessing, as every situation is technically different, and semingly small differences matter.

Have wished that Surrette and other battery manufacturers would have Forums, but probably because of all of the variables, a Forum would just create NOISE.

I should read more of the info that is available on-line regarding battery behavior. The two main Surrette banks here are in their eighth year ... knock . . knock. Vic

waynefromnscanada · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

For whatever reason, this thread is the first in a while re Surrette problems, sure seemed to have been a rash of problems some time back.
Hopefully it's because they're doing better and not that people got scared away. I keep looking for good news because they're the easiest for me to get when I need to replace my now over 10 year old Power Battery L-16's - - -

ChrisOlson · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

Fullpower wrote: »

.SO, do you think Cell'A' can be brought back to life?

I think it highly unlikely that you will revive that cell. If it were me I'd get a warranty ticket going with Surrette on it right away (they'll want you to move heaven and earth to try to revive it before they'll warranty it). But the sooner you get it replaced, the better it will be for the others.
--
Chris

Fullpower · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

Thanks for all the advice so far.
After 60 hours @ 2.60 volts, average 25 Amps input... Cell A has attained 1.27 Spec. Gravity.
the rest of the cells range from 1.27 to 1.29
Bank is running around 29 volts daylight, and lowest morning under load is 24.3 volts.
About due for an EQualize cycle.
We should have enough sun to accomplish this, when the weather clears.
Been mostly cloudy here, and rain or snow for the last 3 months.
typical we get 3 or four sunny days in a month.

Vic · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

Hi Fullpower,

That sounds great. The EQ sounds like a very good idea. And if you have the energy to cycle the bank a few times to about 70% SOC or a bit lower, in the next few weeks or one month this could help with bring the high SG cells into better alignment with the others IMHO.
Just keep a very close eye on the bank voltage and that of individual cells as well. Rapidly falling V is a sign that the discharge should be STOPPED and recharge started immediately.

Good Luck, but sounds like you are on the right track. Vic

Fullpower · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

Just sent a note to Rolls:
.

"One Cell is losing capacity.

String is normally cycled in the 70% to 100% state of charge range, have on 4 occasions 4 run down to 50% SoC.

String is " auto EQ " every 28 days, for 2 hours @ 32 volts. ( Ambient temps averag 50 degrees F )

At roughly 10 to 12 week intervals,Solar power permitting.

we run a FULL manual EQualize, until all cells stop gaining S.G.

4100 Watts PV can give peak current input to batteries of 140 Amps.

Normal ABSorb voltage is 29.6, temp compensation will run it as high as 30.6 volts in winter.

Absorb time ranges up to 4 hours, with sufficient sunlight.

Supplemental charge from grid powered IOTA 27-40 , at 28.6 volts, 40 AMPS peak is used as neccesary to avoid running batteries below 50%

Battery water consumption ranges from 5 to 9 ounces distilled water, per cell, at roughly 60 day intervals.

The lower figure is winter, higher in summer.

Two weeks ago,

Cell A dropped out overnight to 1.2 volts, ran SG down, below the scale, estimated 1.05.

Rest of batteries were at 1.22 SG, around 75% State of Charge.

.

Isolated, and ran the single LOW SG cell through an intensive recovery charge, 2.6 volts, beginning at 40 amps, finish at 20 amps after 60 hours, attained SG of 1.27 in Cell A, but on subsequent discharge cycle it is dropping far below the other 11 cells.

Cell A which was delivered August of 2011, with SG 1.31, was one of the HIGH ones, appears to be dying.

please advise.

Thank you.

Fullpower

ChrisOlson · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

Fullpower wrote: »

Isolated, and ran the single LOW SG cell through an intensive recovery charge, 2.6 volts, beginning at 40 amps, finish at 20 amps after 60 hours, attained SG of 1.27 in Cell A, but on subsequent discharge cycle it is dropping far below the other 11 cells.

Darn it anyway. I had a suspicion that's what would happen with that cell. That's what the warranty is for, and hopefully Surrette will get followed up on it right away and get you a replacement sent out. The batteries should be new enough to where it won't affect the matching between new and old too much (I hope).
--
Chris

Vic · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

Hi Fp,

Sorry to hear that the recovered cell has such diminished capacity. Hope it will not be a large hassle for you to get a replacement quickly. Good Luck, Vic

Fullpower · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

Dialog with Rolls Tech is going well.
Communication from Rolls this morning indicates that a warantee has been authorized for the weak CELL.
Waiting now for that 'official' word to reach Rolls Battery Distributor in Anchorage..

This is one very nice advantage of using individual cells in a series string, I can run my system on 11 cells for a while, just by setting all voltage parameters down 2.2 volts.
The Outback inverters seem plenty happy with 22 volt nominal system, I set the LVCO to 19 volts.. no problems yet.

Vic · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

Fp, Sounds encourageing.

Good Luck with the warranty. Most of the 5000 sereis Surrettes have individual 2-volt cells bolted together, under the top cover. These, too, can be removed, allowing running the system on one fewer cell, and a single-cell replacement into the outer case, when it arrives. Individual 2-volt cells is even better, though. Vic

Ralph Day · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

As Vic says, the 5000 series can have individual cells replaced..I did it with 2 cells. It took a chainfall hoist to pull the affected cells out of the case (some sulfate swelling made them really snug). The new cell's weight made just lowering them into the case quite easy. A nylon strap under the big lead terminal connector on the cell was how to lift/lower them.

The new cells have some sticky gunk in them. After checking electrolyte it can be removed from the outside of the hydrometer with lighter fluid and a cloth or tissue. It doesn't get inside the hydrometer tube, just on the outside. If there's a lot of it as seen from above I will put in my candy thermometer and spin it around to collect the gummy stuff. Are all new Surrette cells like this? (post 2010).

Ralph

ChrisOlson · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

Ralph, we have post 2010 Surrettes and all 24 of ours have that stuff in them too. I'm assuming it's some sort of additive they have put in there, but don't know for sure. I have heard or read of some manufacturers putting additives in the electrolyte that is supposed to prevent sulfation, and I don't remember what it is called. But I think it "waters down" the SG of the electrolyte because even after I got the low SG problem solved in our batteries they have never gotten above about 1.260-1.270 SG (depending on temperature). Before we were told to use higher charging voltages I could never get them above 1.250. They are now two years old and seem to be fine. But time will tell.
--
Chris

waynefromnscanada · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

Ralph Day wrote: »

The new cells have some sticky gunk in them.

Ralph

Wonder if it's something to keep air from getting at the plates during shipment etc, or are they shipped in electrolyte? Just thinking out loud

Fullpower · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

A New S1590 cell was provided, by Rolls, under warranty.
I got lucky, and had a friend in the big CITY provide transport.
.
The bank is very much happier now, at a nominal 24 volts.
First full-SUN day this year... took in 22 Kilowatt-Hours total.

niel · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

fullpower,
glad to hear you have that straitened out now.

waynefromnscanada · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

Good to hear things went as they should. Thanks for the update.

Vic · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

Hi Fp,

Glad that Surrette performed for you, and, seemingly fairly quickly.

I assume that the new battery was shipped wet, with eleyctrolyte in place?
Good Luck with that nice bank, Vic

NorthGuy · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

This is a quick replacement. Did you have to pay for shipping? Did you have to ship the bad cell to Surrette?

Fullpower · January 2013

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

Yes, replacement was hot and wet, obtained from distributor's stock in Anchorage, Alaska.
Had a good friend make the delivery, ride-a-long on his freight route.
They have asked for the return of defective, temps last week were too cold for a dead cell, would have frozen solid quick.
We are up around freezing now, so I should drag it in to town, and make arrangement for a back haul.

wooffi · January 2014

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

I know it is more than a year past this. But I scanned this and several other posts and it gave me great help on checking out my 2008 Rolls battery bank.
I was almost 100% convinced that I also had a bad cell in one of my four six volt Rolls Surrette. The banks had been performing average but in the last few weeks and after a bad cold spell, the generator kicked in 2-3 times a day. Highly unusual.

So I started checking and measuring. Found a post from a guy in Australia that had the same problem and equalized his bank more less for 2-3 days.

Off I went, set the outback controller to equalize max hours, same with the inverter. With a sunny day it should work.

I ran it to about 31 volt (24 volt bank) all I could get, full sun and max generator power (two 120 volt phases, on on the xantrex inverter 30 amp the other on two 40 amp marine chargers).
Did six hours day one, three hours day two and fife more hour on a float charge 26.6 volt.

After all of this my SG readings had all balanced out and my fear of a dead cell was gone. The low cell had come up and I am now relieved not to have to replace a $1200 Battery.
I hope to get another few years out of this bank.

Thanks for letting me share.

Wolfgang

PS: I love my Kubota, after a few relay problems from loose wiring, a solid super generator.

BB. · January 2014

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

Wow! Great you were able to save the weak cell (especially before it took out other cells in your bank). And glad that others' experiences were able to help.

That is why we are here.

-Bill

Vic · January 2014

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

Hi Wolfgang,

Couple of thingsl

31 V is at the lowest end of Surrette's recommended EQ voltage. Furthermore, some CCs/Inverter-Chargers and Marine chargers do not Temp Compensate charge voltages. Perhaps the Marine chargers even lack a Remote Temperature Sensor.

Glad that the batteries have responded well to the EQ. Obviously, the bank feels that it has been either under-charged, under-cycled, under EQed or perhaps all of these apply. It is true that this bank appears to have been working OK for some years, so most of what you are doing must be generally working OK. Realize, also, that many parts of NA have been considerable COLDER than usual, and the resultant reduction in battery Capacity (especially on a bank that is some years old) may be the only issue.

So, it would be good to make sure that you have an RTS (BTS) on EVERY charge source, that your Absorb voltage and time are properly set, and an appropriate Temp Comp coefficient is applied during Absorb and EQ. If any of your chargers will not temp comp Absorb or EQ, then you should try to apply Temp Comp manually when setting these voltages on these chargers.

Which Surrettes are you using, and are there multiple strings?
I do LOVE my Kubota genset, too! Just opinions, Vic

wooffi · January 2014

Re: Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

Hi Vic and Bill,

I am not that much on forums but thanks for the response.

Vic, yes I would love to bring the batteries up to 32 volt but with full solar input on a cool sunny day and full support with my 7 kw kubota I can only bring the bank to 31.5 so far.

Working on that.... You are correct the marine chargers are not going over the pre set 28.8 volt and the poor xantrex charger has to do all the work.

I am still keeping and eye on the suspect cell and it may still be bad. I have four Surrette 6-CS-25PS - 6 Volts, 820 Amp-hours wired to 24 Volt. We live in a very small place and I can run a little wile longer with the weak cell.

I cannot afford to replace the full bank already after 6 years, so one option for me would be to replace one every half year or so. I am also trying to find out what the core return on these babies is.

Keep you all posted.

Wolfgang

Rolls-Surrette S-1590 cell death

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