Solar to run a fridge.

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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.
    BB. wrote: »
    what is the DC input voltage for that inverter? (12/24/48)

    -Bill

    Dollars to donuts it's 12. In which case don't touch it with a barge pole.
    2500 Watts continuous on 12 VDC is 208+ Amps, which is pretty heavy current and difficult to handle (not that it will be operating in that range).

    Maybe you could find a Xantrex Prosine 1800 or 2000 or similar somewhere? They can sometimes be found on-line for a good price.

    As an example: Samlex 2kW 24 Volt sine wave inverter $794: http://www.solar-electric.com/sa2wa24vosiw.html
  • Skippy
    Skippy Solar Expert Posts: 310 ✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.

    Thanks for the feedback, the "store" that sold me the first inverter, I believed. . silly me. . . took the thing home and promptly blew all the fuses in it. . opened it up , replaced the fuses, and since I did all that, figured that I could not return it, so its mine. Lesson learned. The big one I quoted is 12 V.
    O.k. leave the deal that is too good to be true alone. . . kinda made me smile, right under the shelf the inverter was on, there was a take home "kit" everything you needed to set up your own solar array. Problem I found with just reading the numbers, is that "they" were overestimating the output of the 3 - 20 watt panels, and underestimating the loads put on it - 50 watts to run a t.v . ? . . I've already learned my lesson. . . thank you...
    I will have to have a look at some of the inverters here, but what is the difference between an inverter that "clips" the tops off the waveforms - but can only surge 10 % of capacity, to one that can surge more than that ? The batteries on the lap top are running down, so I will go into more detail later, as I am not at home right now. .
    I was rounding up on the current draw for all those appliances as a worse case scenario, they probably won't draw half that much, I guess I will have to get a good sized inverter to run the fridge, and give the other things a try when the system is up and running the way it should be. . .

    Reading the replies, what would be the limit for a 12 volt inverter ?

    Thanks guys.
    2 - 255W + 4 - 285W PV - Tristar 60 amp MPPT CC / 3 - 110W PV -wired for 36V- 24V Sunsaver MPPT CC / midnite bat. monitor.
    1 KW PSW inverter 24V / 2.5 KW MSW inverter-24V ~ 105 AHR battery.
    3 ton GSHP.- 100 gallon warm water storage / house heat - radiant floor / rad
    9 -220W PV - net meter - Enphase inverters and internet reporting system.
    420 Gallon rain water system for laundry.***  6" Rocket Mass Heater with 10' bed for workshop heat.
    Current project is drawing up plans for a below grade Hobbit / underground home.
    Google "undergroundandlovinit" no spaces.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.
    Skippy wrote: »
    Thanks for the feedback, the "store" that sold me the first inverter, I believed. . silly me. . . took the thing home and promptly blew all the fuses in it. . opened it up , replaced the fuses, and since I did all that, figured that I could not return it, so its mine. Lesson learned. The big one I quoted is 12 V.

    We have all been there... Seems like the solution is one big honk'n inverter to run everything. The reality is know you loads, plan the system out, review capabilities--Then pull the trigger.
    I will have to have a look at some of the inverters here, but what is the difference between an inverter that "clips" the tops off the waveforms - but can only surge 10 % of capacity, to one that can surge more than that ? The batteries on the lap top are running down, so I will go into more detail later, as I am not at home right now. .

    MS Inverters--Correctly known as modified square wave and sometimes in "marketing speak" called modified sine wave... There may be a few inverters out there that deserved to be called Modified Sine Wave---But that is very rare and hard to find in the overall marketing noise.

    Probably 80% of your loads will work fine on MSW. And 10% will not run for more than a few seconds to a few hours without seriously impacting the life of the loads.

    If you are powering drills/tools/motors/filament lights... MSW will work fine.

    If you are charging cell phones/some power tool battery chargers/small power cord-brick power supplies for computers/tv/dvd players/etc.. They may fail quickly or run very hot.

    Some--Just are not sure. Refrigerators--some folks have good luck with MSW, others find that they fail in a few years.

    All About Inverters
    Choosing an Inverter - Home Power Magazine
    I was rounding up on the current draw for all those appliances as a worse case scenario, they probably won't draw half that much, I guess I will have to get a good sized inverter to run the fridge, and give the other things a try when the system is up and running the way it should be. . .

    A good quality, minimum ~1,500 watt will power a fridge and other random tools/lights/etc... If this is "life critical", out in the middle of no-where, etc., I would highly suggest a TSW (PSW is pure sine wave--same thing) inverter.

    Or, get a small TSW inverter (radio, cell charger, computer charger, etc.) for not too much money and get your 1,500 watt or so MSW inverter and see what happens. A fridge is not much use after a few days in an emergency (you are going to be on canned foods and dry goods past a week).
    Reading the replies, what would be the limit for a 12 volt inverter ?

    A 1,200 watt inverter will draw over 100 amps @ 12 volts--You need to design the circuit to carry ~168 amps minimum (i.e., 175 to 200 amp fuse/breakers/wiring) to use the full capability of such and inverter.

    Good sized battery bank, heavy wiring, good inverter--some folks have been pretty happy their 2,000 watt 12 VDC inverter (Xantrex seems to make some good ones in the 1,800-2,000 watt range).

    In the end, it is very easy to put a big inverter on a battery bank and draw lots of power from the batteries. It is a bit more difficult to put all that power back (solar array, sun, charge controllers, backup generator, etc.) quickly and cost effectively.

    Any way you can reduce your power usage--The smaller the balance of system has to be (assuming 4 hours of minimum sun--depends on where you live and when you expect to need the power--i.e., dead of winter, or 9+ of the sunny part of the year + generator backup).
    • Battery: 1,000 WH per day * 1/12 volt battery bank * 1/0.85 inverter eff * 2 days no sun * 1/0.50 max battery discharge = 392 AH @ 12 volt battery bank
    • Solar Array: 1,000 WH per day * 1/0.52 system eff * 1/4 hours of sun per day * 1/0.75 usage factor = 773 Watt array
    • AC Backup Charger: 392 AH * 10% rate of charge = ~39 amp @ 12 volt charger
    • Backup Genset: Honda eu2000i (1,600 watt max continuous power)

    A 1,000 WH per day output system is pretty reasonable (could even be called portable). A 3,300 WH per day system--Pretty much fixed for home/cabin use (certainly can be packed up in a trailer for "bugging out"--But not something you want to setup every weekend (3.3x larger than the above--probably want a 24 or 48 volt battery bank at that point).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Skippy
    Skippy Solar Expert Posts: 310 ✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.
    BB. wrote: »
    We have all been there... Seems like the solution is one big honk'n inverter to run everything. The reality is know you loads, plan the system out, review capabilities--Then pull the trigger.

    -Bill

    yah, know what you mean. . . I have ordered the battery monitor, now the next on the list is the inverter, then the batteries. . Still sticking to the plan of running the fridge off these panels, just trying to think ahead to any possible "addition" . . . I know, if I want to go bigger, to start a new system entirely, but, keeping in mind that I can pull any of these plugs out of the solar outlet and plug it into the grid outlet, keeps my options open to a certain amount of mix and match . . i.e. run the washing machine, once, and leave the fridge plugged into the grid for a day or two. . or leave the fridge plugged in, and run the computer every now and then, just to see how much power things actually use and also to see how long it takes the panels to recharge the batt bank . . . stuff like that. . just as long as I don't go to low on the batteries, I should be o.k.. . .:D right ?

    O.k. , so I am looking at the web site, and the Exeltech says that it can only exceed the max by 10 % by "clipping" the tops off the waveforms. . while on the other hand, looking at the Samlex, 2000 watt inverter can put out 2000 watt and surge too 4000 . . I am guessing that since the Exeltech is bragging that they have the "purest" sine wave in the industry, they pay a cost of little surge capacity ?

    I have narrowed it down to the Samlex line, (unless otherwise influenced ;) ) and noticed that the hardwired unit has a sleep mode . . which would be ideal for the fridge job, since with all that styrofoam around it, it turns off for hours at a time and when it does do anything, it pulls at least 700 watts . . . looks like the stand alone units do not have this feature, just says "draws less than 1 amp". . any thoughts on this point , beside the obvious of saving power ? I was going to go for the samlex 1,500 watt, but for an extra 300 $ I get higher output (2000 w) with the power saving feature. . .:confused: . . I know, gotta pull that trigger.

    Someone wanted the specs on the batteries ? Here is the picture I took a while back, I had 7 of these given to me for free, so I can use em till they die. Beside that is the info on the back of my panels. . . 3 of these solar panels hooked to a 20 amp 12 volt morningstar, currently charging a set of 3 of these batteries.

    Thats about it for now, thanks for all the help.
    2 - 255W + 4 - 285W PV - Tristar 60 amp MPPT CC / 3 - 110W PV -wired for 36V- 24V Sunsaver MPPT CC / midnite bat. monitor.
    1 KW PSW inverter 24V / 2.5 KW MSW inverter-24V ~ 105 AHR battery.
    3 ton GSHP.- 100 gallon warm water storage / house heat - radiant floor / rad
    9 -220W PV - net meter - Enphase inverters and internet reporting system.
    420 Gallon rain water system for laundry.***  6" Rocket Mass Heater with 10' bed for workshop heat.
    Current project is drawing up plans for a below grade Hobbit / underground home.
    Google "undergroundandlovinit" no spaces.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.
    Skippy wrote: »
    ... just as long as I don't go to low on the batteries, I should be o.k.. . .:D right ?

    In theory...
    O.k. , so I am looking at the web site, and the Exeltech says that it can only exceed the max by 10 % by "clipping" the tops off the waveforms. . while on the other hand, looking at the Samlex, 2000 watt inverter can put out 2000 watt and surge too 4000 . . I am guessing that since the Exeltech is bragging that they have the "purest" sine wave in the industry, they pay a cost of little surge capacity ?

    Look at the idle power for the 2kW inverter... The Samulex is around 35 watts. The Exceltech are around 12 watts.

    Regarding surge waveform--They probably all clip to some degree above rated output (copper and iron cost money).
    I have narrowed it down to the Samlex line, (unless otherwise influenced ;) ) and noticed that the hardwired unit has a sleep mode . . which would be ideal for the fridge job, since with all that styrofoam around it, it turns off for hours at a time and when it does do anything, it pulls at least 700 watts . . . looks like the stand alone units do not have this feature, just says "draws less than 1 amp". . any thoughts on this point , beside the obvious of saving power ? I was going to go for the samlex 1,500 watt, but for an extra 300 $ I get higher output (2000 w) with the power saving feature. . .:confused: . . I know, gotta pull that trigger.

    Call NAWS (or your chosen dealer) and talk with them. If you have a modern frost free refrigerator--There is a good chance you need AC power 24x7 because the defrost timer will reset back to zero (start defrost cycle) every time the inverter restarts.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Skippy
    Skippy Solar Expert Posts: 310 ✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.
    BB. wrote: »
    There is a good chance you need AC power 24x7 because the defrost timer will reset back to zero (start defrost cycle) every time the inverter restarts.
    -Bill

    ouch. . . never thought about that. . .
    2 - 255W + 4 - 285W PV - Tristar 60 amp MPPT CC / 3 - 110W PV -wired for 36V- 24V Sunsaver MPPT CC / midnite bat. monitor.
    1 KW PSW inverter 24V / 2.5 KW MSW inverter-24V ~ 105 AHR battery.
    3 ton GSHP.- 100 gallon warm water storage / house heat - radiant floor / rad
    9 -220W PV - net meter - Enphase inverters and internet reporting system.
    420 Gallon rain water system for laundry.***  6" Rocket Mass Heater with 10' bed for workshop heat.
    Current project is drawing up plans for a below grade Hobbit / underground home.
    Google "undergroundandlovinit" no spaces.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.

    "If you are powering drills/tools/motors/filament lights... MSW will work fine."

    not that you are leaning using modsine, but i have to say that what bb said above isn't always true except for the filament lights. firstly anything using inductance (coils like motors, compressors, fans, etc.) will use more power than normal when fed a modified sine wave in comparison to feeding it a true sine wave. the extra power dissipation is from the harmonic content of the waveform which does not supply usable power to the load and is just dissipated as heat in the coils. the extra power used is causing extra heat and can shorten the lifespan of the appliance being run making the use of a modsine inverter a double whammy to use just to save a few bucks upfront on the inverter costs.
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.
    niel wrote: »
    "If you are powering drills/tools/motors/filament lights... MSW will work fine."

    not that you are leaning using modsine, but i have to say that what bb said above isn't always true except for the filament lights.

    Even though filament lights may not be harmed in any way by modified square wave drive, you may find that the filaments hum/buzz annoyingly. This will be more of an issue with high wattage bulbs, and will vary with the way the filament is mounted and supported inside the bulb. If in doubt, find a mod square inverter and try it out. If you are in a very quiet environment, it will be more noticeable than in an a sea of urban noise.
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • Skippy
    Skippy Solar Expert Posts: 310 ✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.

    Well, had my first problem with using msw inverters. . . went to turn on the desk top computer after running it for 2 weeks - 1.5 hours a night off the inverter, and was told the internal battery was dead, and I had to reset the clock. .. 2 nights in a row this happened, after that, I plugged the thing into the grid power, and it works just fine. . . go figure. . .
    I have some good news ! I plugged in my toaster oven into grid power to do a bit of a test ( k-o-w) , and at first, while it was warming up, it draws 1100 watts, but then after the initial warm up, it turns on and off, and "coasts" . . so too cook 2 fresh chicken legs, for 45 minutes, it takes around .45 of a kwh (less than the fridge for a day which reads at .65 kwh for a day ) .... going by the liittle pink button on the k.o.w meter. . . Then, I started up the washing machine plugged into the grid power . .. to fill the machine up with rain water, the pump takes 900 watts for 1 min (twice for fill and rinse), and then the machine only runs for 20 minutes after that. Like I said before, the k-o-w meter overloads, So - even if it draws the "worse case scenario" of 2400 watts, which it probably won't , I can divide that by 3 - so "worse case" would now be 800 watts give or take a few start up surges . . . so (theoreticaly) I can either run the fridge - run the toaster oven - or washing machine. . . just not two at once. . . This is just a really rough estimate, I will have to see how it all runs when I get the system up and running. .. but it is looking more promising . . . I'll keep you updated as I go....

    The bad news is, that I went home, and pulled the plug on my fridge 3 different times, and each time I plugged it back in, it ran the defrost, then the fan, then the compressor started up to cool it off. . . every time. . . so, in that 3 hour span, the fridge almost used as much power as it would in an entire day. . . so having an inverter that goes to "sleep" would not work. . . darn. .

    I have been thinking about FLA batteries, and after reading some of the info on here, I realized that I have been making a newbie mistake. . . such as. . . I have a charge controller, why do I need a battery charger ? ? ? . . . well, I have to equilize the batteries at some point. . . so, I will need a charger. . . I am thinking of getting an inverter and a seperate charger, can you reccommend any good chargers or as Mc D's would say, do I want a combo with that ?

    Thanks.
    2 - 255W + 4 - 285W PV - Tristar 60 amp MPPT CC / 3 - 110W PV -wired for 36V- 24V Sunsaver MPPT CC / midnite bat. monitor.
    1 KW PSW inverter 24V / 2.5 KW MSW inverter-24V ~ 105 AHR battery.
    3 ton GSHP.- 100 gallon warm water storage / house heat - radiant floor / rad
    9 -220W PV - net meter - Enphase inverters and internet reporting system.
    420 Gallon rain water system for laundry.***  6" Rocket Mass Heater with 10' bed for workshop heat.
    Current project is drawing up plans for a below grade Hobbit / underground home.
    Google "undergroundandlovinit" no spaces.
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.
    Skippy wrote: »
    Well, had my first problem with using msw inverters. . . went to turn on the desk top computer after running it for 2 weeks - 1.5 hours a night off the inverter, and was told the internal battery was dead, and I had to reset the clock. .. 2 nights in a row this happened, after that, I plugged the thing into the grid power, and it works just fine. . . go figure. . .

    Different desktops have different ways of handling the power needed to maintain the clock and bios data during power-off. All of these systems do not supply power from the energy storage to the clock when the computer is on. Some do not supply power from storage whenever AC is available at the input of the power supply.

    Some have small primary (non-rechargeable) batteries on the motherboard which eventually have to be replaced. Since they will have a typical primary battery end-of-life curve they may drop below a useable voltage when drained by the clock for 24 hours, but work tolerably well for a few hours the next time power is turned off.
    Others use a rechargeable battery or even a super-capacitor for energy storage. In this case, the best explanation I can see for what you describe is that this energy storage system needs to be replaced.

    For rechargeables, there is also a slight, but credible possibility that the charging circuit for it does not like the MSW input and assumes that AC is off and so keeps on powering the clock from the storage system without ever recharging it.

    One useful experiment would be to see what happens when you unplug the computer from the grid each night for a couple of weeks instead of just turning it off.

    If you computer uses a primary battery, just replace it!
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.

    MSW peak voltage is lower than sine wave peak voltage (120 VAC * srt(2)=~170volts peak)--It is possible for the "lower peak voltage" of an MSW inverter to be unable to generate a high enough voltage to recharge the mother board's clock/memory battery (if it is rechargeable).

    One of the many "fun" reasons to try and justify a TSW inverter for running electronics and other stuff... And another reason a laptop+battery pack can be better than running a desktop computer (plus the power savings).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Skippy
    Skippy Solar Expert Posts: 310 ✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.
    inetdog wrote: »

    One useful experiment would be to see what happens when you unplug the computer from the grid each night for a couple of weeks instead of just turning it off.

    If you computer uses a primary battery, just replace it!

    Before I hooked this computer up to the inverter, I used it for short periods of time everyday, plugged into an AC power bar. When not in use, the AC power bar is turned off - for the last 3 -4 years. The only thing that changed, was the fact that I plugged it into the inverter instead of AC. Same usage as before - different power supply. Then, when it told me to replace the battery, I turned off the machine, but left it plugged in over-night, and for about two days of usage after that. Now, there is no problem, starts up easily, with no error messages.

    Gives me a good reason to go TSW :D
    2 - 255W + 4 - 285W PV - Tristar 60 amp MPPT CC / 3 - 110W PV -wired for 36V- 24V Sunsaver MPPT CC / midnite bat. monitor.
    1 KW PSW inverter 24V / 2.5 KW MSW inverter-24V ~ 105 AHR battery.
    3 ton GSHP.- 100 gallon warm water storage / house heat - radiant floor / rad
    9 -220W PV - net meter - Enphase inverters and internet reporting system.
    420 Gallon rain water system for laundry.***  6" Rocket Mass Heater with 10' bed for workshop heat.
    Current project is drawing up plans for a below grade Hobbit / underground home.
    Google "undergroundandlovinit" no spaces.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.

    Considering that MSW no longer holds a major price advantage over TSW (within the same brand) I don't feel it's worth going with MSW. If it was an all-resistive load app where the MSW inverter would be hundreds less for the same capacity, maybe. But you don't usually see situations like that anymore.

    Can't imagine why it would affect a computer like that. Standard battery chargers, yes as they 'see' low Voltage and so have incorrect reference for fully charged. But all of a computer's power comes through the same sophisticated supply, doesn't it? There's not some odd V-tap feeding the clock circuit's NiCad is there? Seems weird to me.
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.
    Can't imagine why it would affect a computer like that. Standard battery chargers, yes as they 'see' low Voltage and so have incorrect reference for fully charged. But all of a computer's power comes through the same sophisticated supply, doesn't it? There's not some odd V-tap feeding the clock circuit's NiCad is there? Seems weird to me.

    No, but there actually is some odd V-tap feeding the clock circuit!

    What could make the difference is that the computer clock is built with logic to run off two different time sources:
    1. Counting down the 60 Hz (or 50 Hz) waveform which is coming from the AC source (when the computer is turned on and plugged in) and
    2. An internal crystal oscillator (32,768 Hz) which is powered by the battery when AC is off and is generally much less accurate and more importantly is temperature sensitive.

    A good computer clock circuit will have moderately sophisticated circuitry to determine whether AC is present and is also good enough to be used as a time reference standard.
    What BB is suggesting, I think, is that this decision as to which frequency source the clock should use may also influence whether the battery gets charged, even if the current source for charging is DC from the power supply. If this is not what BB was suggesting, they I suggest it. :-)

    BTW, if you end up running your computer from an inverter or generator with fair to poor frequency control, you can force your computer's calendar clock to stick to the internal oscillator just by disconnecting the signal from the power supply to the clock. (But that might keep the battery from charging. :-) )
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.

    Anything is possible--But with older PC type motherboards, there was never an AC time sync signal from the PS to the motherboard (that I recall). They use a local crystal oscillator and once the computer is up and running, resync the clock with a local or national time base over the Internet (if network+software is there and configured).

    My guess is that the power supply when "turned off" is using a separate very low power/low loss power supply for the clock circuit. Running on a MSW inverter may leave this low power (and probably dumb) power supply operating in a "brown out" condition--And not generating enough voltage to recharge the mother board battery/super cap/etc...

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.
    BB. wrote: »
    Anything is possible--But with older PC type motherboards, there was never an AC time sync signal from the PS to the motherboard (that I recall). They use a local crystal oscillator and once the computer is up and running, resync the clock with a local or national time base over the Internet (if network+software is there and configured).

    My guess is that the power supply when "turned off" is using a separate very low power/low loss power supply for the clock circuit. Running on a MSW inverter may leave this low power (and probably dumb) power supply operating in a "brown out" condition--And not generating enough voltage to recharge the mother board battery/super cap/etc...

    -Bill

    Probably the same parasitic power source which enables the power-up-on-ring or power-up-on-network-message option that some computers have. Particularly likely if the power switch is a momentary push button rather than a mechanical switch!
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • Skippy
    Skippy Solar Expert Posts: 310 ✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.
    Skippy wrote: »
    well, I have to equilize the batteries at some point. . . so, I will need a charger. . . I am thinking of getting an inverter and a seperate charger, can you reccommend any good chargers or as Mc D's would say, do I want a combo with that ?
    Thanks.

    So which charger would you guys recommend for a 450 amp hour FLA battery bank - used just to equilize charge ? :confused: I am looking at the powermax chargers and the Iota chargers, but have not seen anything pertaining to equalize charging. . looks like french to me - and - no this canadian is not bilingual . .:p . . . Maybe I am looking at this wrong. . how do you equilize charge ? Do you apply power till the sg reaches a certain point, or is there a setting on the charger that does it automatically ?

    Also, I am trying to find a D/C disconnect for outside on the post, I had one electricinan try to sell me one that was the size of a large back pack, with two black breaker switches , did not ask the price for that one, and another electrician said there was nothing made in the 20 amp range, and the one company that does make a unit even close wants something like 500 $ for it. . . just for the disconnect. . . I am looking at this site (AWS), and they have the square d 600 Volt 30 amp disconnect - for 170 $ , is that all I have to order, is that just the outdoor box, or do I have to order the actual switches for inside it as well (1 to 63 Amp 150 VDC Breakers for Solar Panel Arrays) ?

    Thanks for any help you can give me, as this is starting to give me a headache. . :cry:
    2 - 255W + 4 - 285W PV - Tristar 60 amp MPPT CC / 3 - 110W PV -wired for 36V- 24V Sunsaver MPPT CC / midnite bat. monitor.
    1 KW PSW inverter 24V / 2.5 KW MSW inverter-24V ~ 105 AHR battery.
    3 ton GSHP.- 100 gallon warm water storage / house heat - radiant floor / rad
    9 -220W PV - net meter - Enphase inverters and internet reporting system.
    420 Gallon rain water system for laundry.***  6" Rocket Mass Heater with 10' bed for workshop heat.
    Current project is drawing up plans for a below grade Hobbit / underground home.
    Google "undergroundandlovinit" no spaces.
  • oil pan 4
    oil pan 4 Solar Expert Posts: 767 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.

    I had a early 1990s R12 fridge with the fanned condencer and evap coils. It liked to use between 2 and 2.5 Kw per day with just me using it.

    I inhareted a large up right freezer that works with passive condencers and evap coils (no fans) and plan to put the kill-a-watt meter to see how much power it uses now that I know it works and it should be cooled off to normal operating temperature by now (plugged it in 2 days ago).
    It runs real quiet and I think it will be fairly energy efficient.
    Then I will likely list it on CL, because I dont plan on using it.

    Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.

    Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.

  • Skippy
    Skippy Solar Expert Posts: 310 ✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.

    Yah, it is surprising how many different types of machines are out there, every year they HAVE to change the design, which means what works for me might blow yours up :p .

    The bad news is Arizona wind and sun has not recieved my payment for the midnight meter as of yet (the cheques in the mail), I will give it another week or so before I start to worry, holidays and all that . . . the GOOD news is, I now have a firm price on the samlex 2000 watt inverter, as well as a lead on an outdoor disconnect for the panels. Robert - the person on the phone, reccommended the DLS 55 amp charger for the battery bank . . says it will charge it up in about 6 hours. . so if I need to equilize I can.

    The parts are coming together :D:D

    Will keep you guys updated as I go.
    2 - 255W + 4 - 285W PV - Tristar 60 amp MPPT CC / 3 - 110W PV -wired for 36V- 24V Sunsaver MPPT CC / midnite bat. monitor.
    1 KW PSW inverter 24V / 2.5 KW MSW inverter-24V ~ 105 AHR battery.
    3 ton GSHP.- 100 gallon warm water storage / house heat - radiant floor / rad
    9 -220W PV - net meter - Enphase inverters and internet reporting system.
    420 Gallon rain water system for laundry.***  6" Rocket Mass Heater with 10' bed for workshop heat.
    Current project is drawing up plans for a below grade Hobbit / underground home.
    Google "undergroundandlovinit" no spaces.
  • Skippy
    Skippy Solar Expert Posts: 310 ✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.

    Hello.

    My battery monitor will be here in the next couple of days. Apparently, the envelope that I mailed to them was damaged in the mail, repackaged, and sent on its merry way. . . which is the reason for the delay in getting there. The monitor is on its way.

    I have lots of questions about the "next step", but would instead like to suggest that you make certain threads in the "beginners corner" sticky. One of the questions that I have is in regards to equilization, and I am finding the thread "equilization of batteries" a really good read. Also, since my system may be a bit less than "just enough", the other questions I have are concerning mixing panels - or more specifically adding more panels with a seperate charge controller - which lead me to "mixed panel wattage/voltage dileamour" - another very good read. If you could make threads like these sticky, it would be the first thing that "newbies" see. . . its really helping me to get an understanding of what I have and what I need.

    Just a thought.

    Now, . . about those batteries . . . :p
    2 - 255W + 4 - 285W PV - Tristar 60 amp MPPT CC / 3 - 110W PV -wired for 36V- 24V Sunsaver MPPT CC / midnite bat. monitor.
    1 KW PSW inverter 24V / 2.5 KW MSW inverter-24V ~ 105 AHR battery.
    3 ton GSHP.- 100 gallon warm water storage / house heat - radiant floor / rad
    9 -220W PV - net meter - Enphase inverters and internet reporting system.
    420 Gallon rain water system for laundry.***  6" Rocket Mass Heater with 10' bed for workshop heat.
    Current project is drawing up plans for a below grade Hobbit / underground home.
    Google "undergroundandlovinit" no spaces.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.

    If you find any interesting threads--Please feel free make a post out of them and put them in the Working FAQ thread (or post them here, and I will copy your post over). Bytes are cheap (and so am I:p). At this point the FAQ Thread is just a random collection of interesting stuff.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Skippy
    Skippy Solar Expert Posts: 310 ✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.
    BB. wrote: »
    put them in the Working FAQ thread (or post them here, and I will copy your post over).
    -Bill

    Thank you. I will keep that in mind, and also check out that link. I have lots of (silly) questions, just don't want to annoy you guys ... :p:D
    2 - 255W + 4 - 285W PV - Tristar 60 amp MPPT CC / 3 - 110W PV -wired for 36V- 24V Sunsaver MPPT CC / midnite bat. monitor.
    1 KW PSW inverter 24V / 2.5 KW MSW inverter-24V ~ 105 AHR battery.
    3 ton GSHP.- 100 gallon warm water storage / house heat - radiant floor / rad
    9 -220W PV - net meter - Enphase inverters and internet reporting system.
    420 Gallon rain water system for laundry.***  6" Rocket Mass Heater with 10' bed for workshop heat.
    Current project is drawing up plans for a below grade Hobbit / underground home.
    Google "undergroundandlovinit" no spaces.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.

    Go ahead and ask... That is why we are here.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Skippy
    Skippy Solar Expert Posts: 310 ✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.

    Here goes :

    Question # 1 - been doing some reading, and according to the NEC, "they" do not like it when you use a stand alone inverter in a permanant location. So, does this mean that - to "get along" with any officials that may come by, I should look at getting the hardwired Samlex inverter instead of the stand alone Samlex inverter that I was going to get ? Any opinions ?
    #2. - If I am "persuaded" to get the hardwired unit, does anyone know it you can turn off the "sleep" mode ? Since I have already determined that my fridge does not like the power turning off, that is the only reason I am not going hardwired.

    I have realized (by using the battery sizing formula) that my choice of battery size may be too small. Planning on 3 days of autonamy (no sun), and using 1000 watt hours a day (I think thats the right way to say it ) the figures come up as 650 AH battery instead of the smaller 450 AH battery I was going to get. Have to go bigger on the battery bank. The fridge only uses .65, but I rounded it up.

    #3 - So far everything I have read about equilizing the batteries leads me to believe that you apply a stead charge current to the batteries, until the SG's are all even, then stop.- too high of a current, and you cook the battery plates (and all kinds of other nasty things) - too low and it takes too long - Correct ? Or do you leave the charger on for a bit more after that - to let it "soak in" .The whole C4 or C8 charge rate is still a bit muddy, which is why I asked in a previous post how big of a charger I may need to get. Still have to look into that part of the equation.

    In an effort to see just how bad these car batteries are, I charged up the "good" set, left them sitting for a week, and checked the voltage on all three together (as a bank). The voltage is holding at a steady 12.73 V . .

    #4 - I would like to apply a steady load to this battery bank that is rated at 99 AH, but don't want to "over do it" on the test load . What would be a good "test" load. I am thinking about a 100 watt edison light buld . . but I also have 60's and 40's to use as well.

    I am currently letting the "bad" battery bank "float" - while being connected to the solar panels. They are sitting at 14.01 V, just nicely floating. After work tonite, I will be disconnecting that bank and letting it sit for a day or two, then test it the same way.

    According to the chart, for AGM batteries, 100 % would be 12.8 V, so the good set of batteries is holding at a good voltage, now to see what it does under a test load. . .;)

    I do realize that these batteries are useless in a solar system, but I might as well learn the terminolagy, and try to figure out just how "dead" they are. . .:D Applying a load and timing how long it takes to drain the battery bank down to say 75 % or 12.6 V (for AGM) should give me a good idea - shouldn't it ?

    Thanks.
    2 - 255W + 4 - 285W PV - Tristar 60 amp MPPT CC / 3 - 110W PV -wired for 36V- 24V Sunsaver MPPT CC / midnite bat. monitor.
    1 KW PSW inverter 24V / 2.5 KW MSW inverter-24V ~ 105 AHR battery.
    3 ton GSHP.- 100 gallon warm water storage / house heat - radiant floor / rad
    9 -220W PV - net meter - Enphase inverters and internet reporting system.
    420 Gallon rain water system for laundry.***  6" Rocket Mass Heater with 10' bed for workshop heat.
    Current project is drawing up plans for a below grade Hobbit / underground home.
    Google "undergroundandlovinit" no spaces.
  • inetdog
    inetdog Solar Expert Posts: 3,123 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.
    Skippy wrote: »
    Here goes :

    Question # 1 - been doing some reading, and according to the NEC, "they" do not like it when you use a stand alone inverter in a permanant location. So, does this mean that - to "get along" with any officials that may come by, I should look at getting the hardwired Samlex inverter instead of the stand alone Samlex inverter that I was going to get ? Any opinions ?
    #2. - If I am "persuaded" to get the hardwired unit, does anyone know it you can turn off the "sleep" mode ? Since I have already determined that my fridge does not like the power turning off, that is the only reason I am not going hardwired.

    I think that the only objection to the standalone inverter would be if you tried to use a portable cord plugged into its outlet to connect to your house wiring. As long as you plug the freezer or other loads directly into the inverter outlets, there should not be a problem. (On the other hand, if the latter involves running extension cords through doorways or windows, there could be an objection to that.) :-)
    SMA SB 3000, old BP panels.
  • Skippy
    Skippy Solar Expert Posts: 310 ✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.

    Ran into a bit of a snag. The full charge meter on the midnight, says that the battery has to reach 14.2 for 1 hour, before the green light will come on.... problem is, the sunsaver floats the batteries at 14.1 . . the highest I have seen the state of charge is 14.6 will the float voltage ever get to 14.2 ?
    2 - 255W + 4 - 285W PV - Tristar 60 amp MPPT CC / 3 - 110W PV -wired for 36V- 24V Sunsaver MPPT CC / midnite bat. monitor.
    1 KW PSW inverter 24V / 2.5 KW MSW inverter-24V ~ 105 AHR battery.
    3 ton GSHP.- 100 gallon warm water storage / house heat - radiant floor / rad
    9 -220W PV - net meter - Enphase inverters and internet reporting system.
    420 Gallon rain water system for laundry.***  6" Rocket Mass Heater with 10' bed for workshop heat.
    Current project is drawing up plans for a below grade Hobbit / underground home.
    Google "undergroundandlovinit" no spaces.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.

    The MidNite meter is looking for the batteries having received an Absorb charge: 14.2 Volts for at least 1 hour. This is not the same as Float.
    The SunSaver has two Absorb Voltage settings: 14.4 for flooded batteries and 14.1 for sealed batteries. I'm sorry I don't remember which type you have. There is a jumper between the last two terminals on the right; you remove it for the flooded Voltage. Most AGM's will be able to take 14.4 Volts If necessary remove jumper to satisfy the meter one day, then put it back.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.

    You could even wire the jumper to a simple on/off switch... Switch off--Storage. Switch On--System actively being used (and higher charging voltage will better recharge the battery bank).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Skippy
    Skippy Solar Expert Posts: 310 ✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.
    The MidNite meter is looking for the batteries having received an Absorb charge: 14.2 Volts for at least 1 hour. This is not the same as Float.
    The SunSaver has two Absorb Voltage settings: 14.4 for flooded batteries and 14.1 for sealed batteries. I'm sorry I don't remember which type you have. There is a jumper between the last two terminals on the right; you remove it for the flooded Voltage. Most AGM's will be able to take 14.4 Volts If necessary remove jumper to satisfy the meter one day, then put it back.

    Thank you for answering Cariboocoot,

    I have attached a pdf of both the sunsaver, and the midnight meter, and as you can see, for the different types of batteries, the sunsaver is lower than the midnight.....

    Could you explain the "Absorb" for me ? I have always thought of the bulk - absorb - and float- as high medium and low, for the majority of the charge cycle, you need lots of power - so bulk kicks in and gives it everything its got. .. . then when its nearly full charged, absorb slows it down a bit, to let it sink in . . . and finally when its nearly done, it tapers off, just to keep the batteries topped up.... is that about right ?

    ..............sunsaver ...............midnight

    agm ............ 14.1 ............... 13.8
    gel .............. 14.1.................14.2
    FLA.............. 14.4 .................14.7

    I have done a bit of reading on here, and alot of the new guys make the mistake of not fully charging their batteries , which leads to a quick bat. death.... So my question is, if I go out and buy my brand new FLA batteries, and hook up the midnight meter, with the sunsaver. . . will it ever get to 14.7 using the sunsaver set to FLA ?

    Here is what I have been working on :

    I am not really worried about the batteries I have here, as they are the wrong type, as well as not big enough, and way to old and neglected to be any good . . . BUT . . they are good for me to learn a few things on, before they die completely..... that said, I left the sunsaver alone, and moved the jumper in the midnight meter, so the meter thinks I have gel batteries, and not AGM, so the green light does come on now and then.....just at a lower voltage (13.8 )
    On my bank of 4 "really bad" batteries, I hooked up a 20 watt aquarium pump. I ran the pump all night, and in the morning, the batteries were down to 70 percent on the midnight meter (12.38 V) I let them recharge till the green light came on, then switched to my other battery bank.... a set of 3 "good" batteries... same test... 20 watts- all night - 11 pm till 9 am... same result ... down to 70 percent . . so the set of 4 bad ones is about equal to the set of 3 good ones. . . more or less. . . I am thinking that for a battery bank of only 132 amp hours and another of 99 amp hours, that still is too big of a load. . .

    I did find out that there is a BIG difference between an intermittent load, and a contiunuous load (such as the aquarium pump....;)

    Thanks for any help you can give. :D
    2 - 255W + 4 - 285W PV - Tristar 60 amp MPPT CC / 3 - 110W PV -wired for 36V- 24V Sunsaver MPPT CC / midnite bat. monitor.
    1 KW PSW inverter 24V / 2.5 KW MSW inverter-24V ~ 105 AHR battery.
    3 ton GSHP.- 100 gallon warm water storage / house heat - radiant floor / rad
    9 -220W PV - net meter - Enphase inverters and internet reporting system.
    420 Gallon rain water system for laundry.***  6" Rocket Mass Heater with 10' bed for workshop heat.
    Current project is drawing up plans for a below grade Hobbit / underground home.
    Google "undergroundandlovinit" no spaces.
  • Skippy
    Skippy Solar Expert Posts: 310 ✭✭
    Re: Solar to run a fridge.

    I don't mind being told that the sunsaver won't do the job . . . if that is the case.
    2 - 255W + 4 - 285W PV - Tristar 60 amp MPPT CC / 3 - 110W PV -wired for 36V- 24V Sunsaver MPPT CC / midnite bat. monitor.
    1 KW PSW inverter 24V / 2.5 KW MSW inverter-24V ~ 105 AHR battery.
    3 ton GSHP.- 100 gallon warm water storage / house heat - radiant floor / rad
    9 -220W PV - net meter - Enphase inverters and internet reporting system.
    420 Gallon rain water system for laundry.***  6" Rocket Mass Heater with 10' bed for workshop heat.
    Current project is drawing up plans for a below grade Hobbit / underground home.
    Google "undergroundandlovinit" no spaces.