PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

Gloves
Gloves Solar Expert Posts: 65 ✭✭✭✭
Here is the scenario:
I have a wind turbine 10-blade 12V 450W Ghost. For the last 48 hrs there’s
been a lot of wind gusting up to 48 hrs. The blades have been spinning
non-stop. I have 2 t-105s 6V + 6V = 12V.

Battery status:
  • 12.20 V – Last night
  • 12.00 V – Tonight
Right now, as the wind gusts I see the voltage range from 12.0 to 12.15.

THE QUESTION:
If my wind turbine has been spinning non-stop for 2-days, why has my batteries have only lost energy? :confused:
If you don’t have an answer, any help/hints for trouble shooting is greatly appreciated.

(I also have 2 solar panels 250W total but, no sun so take those out of the equation.)


The Setup:
http://www.glovesandclover.com/tutorials/wind-power/
Website where I got the turbine

Picture previously taken during a sunny day:
wind-turbine.jpg
«1

Comments

  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    The first question has to be: has this ever worked? If you've had the turbine putting out Voltage and current at the batteries and it now doesn't, then something has gone wrong.

    What you should see out of it (and you should have some way of metering output) at best would be:
    450 Watts / 14.2 Volts charging = ~31 Amps. Although given the usual reliability of wind turbine claims you'd be lucky to see half that.

    The next question is: what's drawing on the batteries? For one thing, 12.2 Volts is low. Charging Voltage should be above 14, and either the panels or the turbine should be capable of pushing them up there. One reason why they might not is excessive drain. I note you have only 120 Watts of panel. To those T105's that is nothing. You'd be lucky to see 6.5 Amps from that; far short of the minimum charge rate for 225 Amp hour batteries.

    So it's disconnect and check time. You really need to see if there's any current coming from the turbine. Voltage is one thing; current is another. Given the length of wire run and the gauge of wire (dual 12 gauge? There's a good reason for not paralleling current paths) it could be producing next to nothing.

    I hate to mention it, but a lot of "bargain" electronics like the equipment on your list is often not very good.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    Possibly a rectifier (diode array) has failed (possibly shorted)...

    Does the turbine seem to be turning faster or slower than you would expect?

    Do you have any way to measure DC current flow like a battery monitor or clamp on DC amp meter? Note that a DC clamp amp meter can tell which way the current is flowing in the wire.

    You can also use a volt meter set to 2.000 or 0.200 volts full scale, and span a length of cable from the generator (i.e., 3-6 foot of cable), and if you have to, just stick the lead through the insulation. Use the wire as a shunt resistor and measure the voltage drop... You may be able to tell which direction the current is flowing.

    At this point, you need to get an AC battery charger on the battery bank and get it charged again... Otherwise, you run the risk of sulphation or taking the battery dead (which can kill it pretty much immediately).

    If it is very windy out--I don't know which is better--disconnecting the generator to "save" the battery (if that is where you current leakage is going) and run the risk of over-speeding your wind turbine (possible destruction). Or, leave the turbine connected until the wind dies down (assuming the battery load is keeping the turbine from over-speeding).

    The other possibility--other loads like you inverter turned on?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Gloves
    Gloves Solar Expert Posts: 65 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    * * * Cariboocoot * * *
    "Has it ever worked?" - I have never noticed any meaningful increases. =( even
    after the most fierce of wind storms with gusts up to 50 mph! It seems the more
    the wind blows the lower the batteries get! almost as if the terminals are hooked
    up backward!
    :grr

    "What's drawing on the batteries?" It turns out my wife had plugged in a 23W CFL
    and my laptop (65 W) all w/o me knowing! ... under normal circumstances I'm
    good with that. =) - - They have been unplugged and I turned off the inverter.

    "I note you have only 120 Watts of panel. To those T105's that is nothing."
    Actually, my web page hasn't been updated, I do have 2 -120 W panels that
    produce ~1 KW / day when sun is out, (i think, still hard to tell). Those seem to
    take bring my battery bank up .5 to .75 V per day.

    "Given the length of wire run and the gauge of wire (dual 12 gauge? There's a good reason for not paralleling current paths) it could be producing next to nothing."
    Yes, this is roughly 25' of dual 12-gauge wire. What's the good reason for not
    paralleling current paths!?
    What's next to nothing? (forgive me, i'm trying to absorb as much of your input as
    possible)


    * * * Bill * * *
    "Possibly a rectifier (diode array) has failed (possibly shorted)..." No idea if it's
    happened. It doesn't feel like the coils in the generator are shorting the
    battery energy.


    "Does the turbine seem to be turning faster or slower than you would expect?"
    I believe it turns the speed it should. It dos spin quite fast under load. It spins
    out-of control fast under no load. The manufacture does specify that the turbine
    is designed to operate safely under no load also. I'm easily able to tell the
    difference between no-load and load spinning. that's got to mean something.


    "Do you have any way to measure DC current flow" I feel like a n00b, those links
    are EXACTLY what I need. I'll be placing an order in the next day or so to get
    some of those! They would help greatly! My Volt meeter has only gotten me so far. =(
    For some reason your link wasn't working, but I think this is what you were
    trying to link to: http://www.solar-electric.com/metersmonitors.html


    I've taken all loads off (about 1 hour ago), and I've turned off the
    inverter. The V meeter now reads a base of 12.25 and a peak of 12.45 during
    large gusts. I'll check the batteries again in the morning to see if i've net any
    gain.

    Debugging video from my blackberry (may be worthless):
    http://www.glovesandclover.com/tutorials/wind-power/wind-debugging.3GP
    (13 MB - plays on windows media player - has no sound. probably worthless, I didn't know my cell phone didn't record sound with the video.)
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    You video + sound did work fine for me (using VLC player on Windows XP).

    Another thing to check is your diversion controller--Make sure that the relay is not on/shunting current to your dump load.

    You may be just at the point where more power being drawn than is being supplied by your charging sources.

    And the battery monitor link you have is correct (mine seems to work for me too). Look at the Trimetric as a good lower cost entry point for a battery monitor.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Gloves
    Gloves Solar Expert Posts: 65 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    I checked the V this morning. 12.10 V resting. No wind blowing for hours now.

    Now that the sun is starting to come up the PV is starting to kick in (although mostly
    overcast at this point) the V already moved up to 12.43 V and i'm 2.5 hrs from my
    solar collecting 4-hr block.

    Something is seriously wrong with the turbine or my wiring.


    UPDATED
    Battery Status:
    8:00am - 12.10 V (No Sun)
    8:35am - 12.43 V (Tiny bit)
    3:45pm - 12.84 V (Lot of sun)
    9:00pm - 12.50 V (No sun for a while and no wind)
    Today there has been less than 1 full hour of sun and little to no wind.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help
    Gloves wrote: »
    Something is seriously wrong with the turbine or my wiring.

    That sounds about right. Unfortunately it isn't uncommon.

    The parallel wires problem I mentioned occurs when one becomes disconnected or high in resistance (as from corrosion) and the other then has to carry the whole load - and isn't large enough to.

    The thing you have to do now is check output from the turbine at the turbine. It's not really safe to do this with it up a pole and the wind blowing. Since you probably don't want to take it down at this point either, try checking the Voltage going in to your wind controller. It should be well above 12 Volts when the turbine is spinning.

    It's basic diagnostics: separate the components of the system, test each one, find the fault. Tedious but necessary.
  • MisterB
    MisterB Solar Expert Posts: 156 ✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    If your battery voltage is rising during wind gusts, you are getting something from the turbine but I would guess, not all that much. Just looking at your setup, the most cost effective improvement would be to put in better wire. 25' of an outdoor rated 2 conducter+ground #6AWG outdoor rated cable is not going to set you back that much or, if you are running the wire through conduit, you would need 2 #6AWG thhn cables. I would recommend the same for the leads from your solar array. Your battery voltages indicate that they are badly undercharged. There are probably issues in both the wind and solar parts of your system but you need to know both both charge and load currents to know what's really happening. An AC/DC clamp meter is highly recommended.

    And looking at the turbine site, there is a lot of boastful salesmanship but no real specs on what to really expect from the turbine in wattage/windspeed much less charge current/windspeed. A rooftop installation below the tree line is not a good setup to begin with but it should probably put out more than you're getting from it.
  • Gloves
    Gloves Solar Expert Posts: 65 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    Since I basically have 10 blades attached to a car alternator... I'm wondering if the RPMs are getting to a speed that produces meaningful current to the batteries.

    If a car idols at 900 RPM-ish.... I don't feel like the blades rotate at that speed. While fast, probably only 300 RPM, I have no way to confirm that.

    One theory I have, would be to remove 5 blades, would it be easier for the turbine to spin faster thus generate more current? I chose 10 blades to get it up to speed sooner.

    Thanks for your input thus far!
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    It also sounds like your batteries are chronically undercharged. I would pull all the loads, charge them full with a genny or grid power until they go into float, and the specific gravity is correct.

    Then test the charging systems.

    T
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help
    Gloves wrote: »
    Since I basically have 10 blades attached to a car alternator... I'm wondering if the RPMs are getting to a speed that produces meaningful current to the batteries.

    I suspect I will regret asking this but ... It's not a commercial wind turbine? How are you energizing the rotor windings in the alternator? I doubt it's spinning 1000 RPMs either.
  • MisterB
    MisterB Solar Expert Posts: 156 ✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    I just looked over the Hydrogenappliances.com website again and noticed their wind turbines, pma alternators, blades, hubs and hub adapters are almost identical to those of Missouri Wind & Solar. I couldn't find a single real spec on any of their stuff, no graph of power output vs windspeed, no survival wind speed, no rated wind speed and no mention of overspeed control. Lots of pictures and videos and testimonials but not a single real fact about turbine performance, not even a grossely exaggerated one.

    That being said, the fact that your turbine is making the battery voltage jump in a wind gust says that it is doing something and your battery voltages indicate your system is capable of charging from both wind and sun but is not performing very well.
    A car just idols at around 800 rpm. When you're driving, the rpm goes a lot higher. Just on principle, a car alternator is not going to be a good choice for a wind turbine, especially at low wind speeds.
  • Gloves
    Gloves Solar Expert Posts: 65 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    Batteries are chronically undercharged - could be, I don't usually let it drop below 12.3V
    since I usually have plenty of sun daily but, they are also just as rarely
    undercharged as they are topped-off.


    Parallel wires problem/outdoor rated 2 conductor+ground #6AWG outdoor rated
    cable - I'll look into that. I'm not going to give up if it costs me a new generator
    hub.


    An AC/DC clamp meter is highly recommended/Do you have any way to measure
    DC current flow like a battery monitor or clamp on DC amp meter? - A brand-new Craftsman
    AC/DC Clamp Meter 82369. After watching a few youtube videos I feel like I
    know how to use some settings. (I don't know how to test a diode, or tell what
    direction current if flowing).

    How are you energizing the rotor windings in the alternator? - How am I what?
    I think it works the same as any car alternator.

    Got this from eHow.com:
    http://www.ehow.com/how_2210342_diagnose-car-alternator-problem.html
    Inspect your battery's voltage and terminal connections while the engine is idling.
    Using a voltmeter, look for a reading between 13.8 and 15 volts. If the reading
    dips to 12.8 to 13 volts, your alternator may be malfunctioning.


    Turbine History:
    I first mounted this turbine weeks before I had batteries to connect it to. The
    manufacture says it's fine under no-load. I did monitor it during mild to strong
    wind conditions. It would whip up to speed very quickly generating up to 40V at
    the top end but easily over 20V with medium winds (10mph).

    Now that I have the clamp meeter, I can't wait for more wind to come along so I
    can see if there is any current!!!


    Call me sentimental, but I love the blades (all ten of them) and Tail. I'm not
    thrilled about the car alternator, I would love to replace it with another real
    1/2KW wind generator. Right now I'm thinking that more RPMs are needed than
    my 42" diameter blades can give it.



    Here is what I expect to find:
    250W PV Generates ~13A
    450W Turbine Generates ~3A during gusts


    I base this off of how much I see the voltage move when both are applied to my battery bank.
    250W PV +.50 V
    450W Turbine +.20 V during gusts (+.10 V average)



    Their promo video
    Now that I'm looking at it, this is a video of the turbine under no-load. It makes
    the whisping sound only when under no load. Once load is applied it's slowed to
    half or less.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0PTnKGL6KhA&feature=player_embedded
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    I cheat with the DC clamp meter... I turn on my car lights and measure the current direction as the battery discharges. The +/- reading on the display will flip if you flip the meter over (reminding me to put a +/- mark on the clamp so I remember the next time:blush::roll:).

    Testing a single diode is pretty easy... Here is one website.

    Here is a quick description of how an alternator works. There are 6 diodes in a typical alternator rectifier assembly to check.

    With a wind turbine, typically they replace the rotating field windings (coils with slip rings on rotor) with permanent magnets. This does make the alternator more efficient (no winding current losses).

    There are lots of places you can see alternator output curves... Here is one handy post that I can paste the text from:
    RPM = Alt "A" Alt "B" Cold/Hot
    2500 = 78/63 ~~ 73/58
    3000 = 92/76 ~~ 93/76
    3500 = 102/85 ~~ 107/87
    4000 = 108/92 ~~ 117/96
    4500 = 114/96 ~~ 123/102
    5000 = 118/99 ~~ 127/107
    5500 = 121/102 ~~ 131/110
    6000 = 123/104 ~~ 134/113
    6500 = 124/106 ~~ 136/116
    Just two different alternator models and the Cold/Hot output current (as alternators get hot, their output current falls).

    An alternator may need to spin at 1,500 RPM before it generates usable current/voltage... For a car, that is OK--They typically have a 2:1 pulley to increase the alternator's RPM.

    For a wind turbine, there are other things they can do to increase output at lower RPMs (stronger magnetic fields, closer tolerances, rewinding the stator, etc.).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Gloves
    Gloves Solar Expert Posts: 65 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    Bill i'm not looking for 78 amps. I'll be more than pleased if i can pick up a steady 15 and a peak of 30A

    Thanks for the Diode link, I've started from the beginning, going to be a long way to the end.
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    "Gloves" I hate to say it, but your wind turbine looks identical to the "Hornet" I had up a few years ago, only difference is a few more blades to start it turning at a lower wind speed, and clear plastic, instead of fiberglass blades. So, in my opinion, you've been ripped off just like I was.
    For those not familiar with these modified car alternator units, the original wound rotor is replaced with a permanent magnet rotor, and the stator has been rewound with many more turns of much finer wire, to produce it's rated voltage at about 400 RPM. However:
    1) Although 400 RPM is wonderful, pretty and impressive to look at while laying on one's back in the grass, it will not charge batteries. It must spin MUCH faster.
    2) The far finer wire that must be used to get all those extra turns in the stator, GREATLY restrict any current that would be produced. (more on that later)
    As stated by an earlier poster, the claims by the manufacturer, of the power produced by these machines if GREATLY exaggerated. And believe me, that's an understatement.
    The ONLY time mine EVER produced any USEABLE battery charging power was during Fall Tropical storms that came up the Eastern Seaboard and nailed Nova Scotia. At those times the turbine howled like an insane Banshee, ripping the air with the roars of a runaway out of control airplane. I can only imagine what that would sound like when attached to one's house. The vibrations would be insane! The last time we had such a storm, after which I took it down, I truly expected to find bits of blade scattered all over Nova Scotia, but somehow it did hang together. One good thing however was that the roar of the hurricane force winds, pretty much drowned out the roaring of the Hornet, so the neighbors didn't complain.
    The "brake" is electric, the idea is to short the output and that puts such an aerodynamic load on the blades as to stall them. The reality? Yes, that works in light winds, but bring on a power producing Tropical storm and you might as well do a #1 in the wind!
    I gave the blades and tail back to the business I bought it from and kept the PM alternator, which is now producing the power that's coming from my micro, micro hydro settup. Back to the current limiting fine wires in the stator - - when I first got the hydro running, just testing to see what it might do, I had it putting out about 75 watts (6 amps) with no cooling fan on the alternator. Who would need a fan for that? I soon found out! The thing got so hot I burned my hand touching it and the stator was almost ruined, all the twine used to hold the windings tight were burned off and the plastic insulating sleeves in the stator melted. Luckily a friend of mine owns a motor shop, he "re-dipped" re-varnished the blackened windings, there were no shorts and he said give it a try. I stuck on a fan, brought up the RPM and thus the voltage and use a MPPT controller to match it to the batteries. It's now been humming along for 2 years. Even now, buried under the snow for the last month and a half, it keeps right on doing it's thing 24/7. FINALLY I'm getting some return on that "investment". Oh, and the output? 150 watts MAX! A far cry from the "1000 watts Plus" it was to have produced.
    So if you don't have a good stream nearby, I see no way out except to take it down and chalk it up to a learning experience.
    With the Hornet, very few were the days when I got ANY usable power from it at all.
    With Solar, very few are the days I don't get at least SOME usable power.
    That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
    Good luck. I've been there, and now I'm poorer in money, but richer in knowledge.
  • MisterB
    MisterB Solar Expert Posts: 156 ✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    The hornet is one of the models listed in www.hydrogenappliances.com. The Ghost has transparent blades, that's the big differerence. And I did find a watts/windspeed chart on second look among all the clutter of the web page and it's not totally dishonest--basically, you'll get great power output in 30-135 mph winds. This doesn't take turbulence into account which is virtually guaranteed in the roof top installations they show on their web page.

    My first wind turbine was a modified car alternator based SW windpower Windseeker 250. They put the alternator in a new housing and I don't know what the did inside the alternator. The turbine did have mechanical furling which really worked. The alternator and blades went almost completly vertical in high winds which sounded just like a helicopter. It would start to trickle at 10mph, would put out what I considered uselful power at the time starting at around 15mph and would put out 10-20 amps in high winds and would occasionally peak above 20 amps which was the limit of my meter at the time. Basically as good as their later Air 403 and Air X did in real performance.

    When I was shopping for a new wind turbine a couple of years ago, I looked at lots of ebay listings--there are hundreds online at any given time--and settled on a Chinese Windmax because it was the only 12 volt turbine in the wattage I wanted that had some sort of outside certification--in other words they had had let their turbines be tested by some entity outside their company. They also seemed thorough in their specs and put all the right things in them. I live in a rural area but my best turbine site is really close to the property line so I have neighbors a few hundred feet away from my turbine and I have to take the safety issues seriously because it is not just my property that would be affected by blades flying off in high winds. The Hornets and Ghosts are just about the same turbines that Missouri Wind & Solar offers and the parts must come from the same source. None of them give any real world performance data for their turbines nor do they seem to take braking and safety issues very seriously.

    Now that you have a clamp meter, you can test the current output of both solar and wind. If the solar is below what the panels are rated for, then the wiring would be suspect and it would apply to both parts of the system. If your can get anything like 10-20 amps out of your turbine on a really windy day, then you are definitely getting your moneys worth and if not, then it would probably be more cost effective to scrap the turbine and get a better one then continue to mess with this one.
  • Gloves
    Gloves Solar Expert Posts: 65 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    - - - Quick report - - -
    Wind was gusting and wind advisories posted in the area. So I took some time before work to use the amp meeter.

    The range was from .5 to 5 A
    Even with incredible gusts it barely reached 5A (tested at the batteries.)

    On average, I would guess 1.5A during a wind storm.

    So 225 Ah battery bank could be filled as quickly as 150 to 200 hours of strong winds?

    (will reply to other posts later)


    *** EDIT ***
    I was just thinking about this...
    1.5 A x 20 V (generous) = ~30 W is my math correct?

    that is practically worthless!!! The claim was 450 W at 25 MPH.
    In actuality it's 15 TIMES LESS!!!
    Or 6% of their claim!?
    SON OF A B*(@#_*!@$!#!* !!!

    This is much bigger than ripping me off... this is ripping off the environment! If I
    were the wind, i would be pissed that such an in-efficient device was attempting
    to convert me. The wind is laughing at this sorry attempt! ok.. back to work i go.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    Yep...:cry:

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • MisterB
    MisterB Solar Expert Posts: 156 ✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    Just to give you something to compare your readings to, here are some readings from my 400 watt Windmax which I am a bit disapointed in on a windy day but no wind advisory out:

    Last night with no solar and a light, 4.6 amp, load on the batteries, I read an average current of 6-7 amps with peaks at 9 to 10 just before I went to bed at around 11pm.

    Right now the batteries are bulk charged and the turbine is just floating the batteries along with the smaller and older of my 2 solar arrays and the current is jumping from 0-6.3 amps and then the controller puts the dump load on and it slows down the turbine a few seconds until the battery voltage drops and the turbine starts speeding up again. This is with a 10.2 amp load on the battery. If I disconnect the load, the turbine will be in dump mode most of the time and will be turning very slowly in a wind like this.
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    Very sorry Gloves, but not surprised. It's basically what I found with the almost identical Hornet. A useless ripoff :(
    Saddest thing is, it really taints the whole wind industry, bringing it all into disrepute, doing a huge disservice to all:cry:
    Glad to hear that Mr B is having better luck with his turbine.
    But I won't be going back to wind. One good burning was enough for me.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help
    Gloves wrote: »
    *** EDIT ***
    I was just thinking about this...
    1.5 A x 20 V (generous) = ~30 W is my math correct?

    that is practically worthless!!! The claim was 450 W at 25 MPH.
    In actuality it's 15 TIMES LESS!!!
    Or 6% of their claim!?
    SON OF A B*(@#_*!@$!#!* !!!

    This is much bigger than ripping me off... this is ripping off the environment! If I
    were the wind, i would be pissed that such an in-efficient device was attempting
    to convert me. The wind is laughing at this sorry attempt! ok.. back to work i go.

    In some ways worse. Not 20 volts but 12.5 times battery charging voltage.

    You should also look at your wire gauge and length and see if you have excessive voltage drop.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • MisterB
    MisterB Solar Expert Posts: 156 ✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    I second the wiring check. I don't think the turbine could ever do much more than 200 watts at less than a gale force wind but at 12 volts a voltage loss in the lines can have a big effect.

    And I am doing better with my turbine but I'm not getting nearly what I was led to believe I would get when I bought it. I expected about double of what I'm getting at 20+ mph. The Chinese manufacturer is actually fairly honest in the specs but the American reseller not so much although they've gotten rid of some of the worst exaggerations since I bought the turbine 2 years ago. Kind of puts a new twist on the Chinese import vs. domestic arguement: Crap is crap and quality is quality no matter where it's made. The great thing about this forum is that it gets the word around about what's what and this thread could save others from falling for the sales hype.
  • Gloves
    Gloves Solar Expert Posts: 65 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    Bil & Mr. B,
    How do i check my line quality for voltage drop-off?

    If it's storming, I can take it off the battery and test during no load.


    Some how I don't think it's the line but I'm willing to test everything!

    My 2 solar panels are on the same exact type wire but aren't double parallel. They are about 4' shorter.

    Their load is 6.5 Amp (estimated) until I get some sun I won't know for sure. The windmill won't produce more than 5 amp and it has a double parallel wiring.

    SO FRUSTRATING!!!
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    What is the length and AWG of the wiring from the turbine to the battery bank (and if it is doubled, you should try to measure current on each wire to ensure it is carrying its share of the current--A broken parallel path shifts all current to the rest of the wiring without showing any signs of faults--that is one reason why parallel wiring is generally not allowed by building codes).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • NEOH
    NEOH Solar Expert Posts: 74 ✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    Gloves, Here is some good news. A well designed (efficient) 48" diameter Wind Turbine can generate approx 304 Watts (21 Amps x 14 Volts) in 24 mph winds IF your Wind Turbine is mounted about 30' above your roof peak and any nearby trees. Their claim of 450 Watts at 25 MPH with a 51" Rotor is not that far from the real world results. If you are only measuring 1.5 amps then you have a local problem that needs fixed (not necessarily a rip-off).
  • MisterB
    MisterB Solar Expert Posts: 156 ✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    Gloves

    I've got 2 slightly bigger UL solar panels rated at 125 watts, 7.23 amps ipm and they both exceed their ratings and I get around 8 amps ipm from them so yours should put out at least their rated current. If you've got 2 of the 120 watt panels, they should put 14 amps into your batteries at midday on a sunny day. If they aren't, then either there's a problem in the wiring or the panels aren't properly orientated or are they are being partially shaded by something. If they aren't putting out their rated current, you need to do a short circuit current test on them, preferbly as close to the panel as possible which involves disconnecting the panels from the batteries and each other and placing a wire between the panel positve and negative with the clamp meter around it. The snap disconnects of the UL panels should make this fairly easy. If you are getting anything close to the 7.772 amp isc the panels are rated for and not getting 7 amps from each once when they're connected to the batteries, then you're losing something in the wiring. It might not be just the wire size, any juction where 2 wires are joined could have contact resistance. I found a .6 volt drop accross a 40 amp cartridge fuse at a 25 amp current not too long ago. This sort of contact resistance generates heat and you can often pinpoint it by checking for hot spots in the wire run--preferably with an infrared remote theremometer.

    Checking the wind side of the system is a lot harder because of the constantly fluctuating currents and voltages. The best way to directly check for a voltage drop across the whole line would be to connect another small wire to the turbine connection in parallel with the 2 wires connecting it to the batteries and place your voltmeter between the end of the wire and the point where the 2 paralled wires connect to the battery--essentially making a 25' lead for your voltmeter.
  • Gloves
    Gloves Solar Expert Posts: 65 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    Wow, that's quite involved.

    NEOH, that is good news.
    I'm not able to achieve the 30' above my rooftop, I wouldn't feel safe about it
    either... And the only tree in the whole neighborhood that's taller than my
    windmill happens to be 30' away! It needs trimming desperately, come summer
    I might just do it that favor.

    (plans for solar and wind locations:)
    wind-solar-on-house.jpg

    450 W on 51" blades seems like quite a big dream. That's twice the energy of both my solar panels with less square footage:
    - Solar area: 2,964"
    - Wind area: 2,042"

    I'll see if i can scrape together some time this weekend and play with my new Clamp meeter toy.
  • NEOH
    NEOH Solar Expert Posts: 74 ✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help
    Gloves wrote: »

    NEOH, that is good news.
    I'm not able to achieve the 30' above my rooftop, I wouldn't feel safe about it
    either... And the only tree in the whole neighborhood that's taller than my
    windmill happens to be 30' away! It needs trimming desperately, come summer
    I might just do it that favor.

    450 W on 51" blades seems like quite a big dream. That's twice the energy of both my solar panels with less square footage:
    - Solar area: 2,964"
    - Wind area: 2,042"

    I'll see if i can scrape together some time this weekend and play with my new Clamp meeter toy.


    Gloves,
    If your are serious about a Wind Turbine then you MUST install the Wind Turbine 30' ABOVE any building or tree within 300' (or even 500') radius of the tower. If the turbulence from your trees or roof cuts your Wind Speed in half (which is very possible) then you only get 1/8th the power. Instead of producing 400 Watts (28 Amps x 14 Volts) your Wind Turbine will only produce 50 Watts (3 amps x 14 V) - very dissapointing indeed!

    Here is an Small Wind Turbine article ...
    http://www.smallwindtips.com/tag/turbine-height/
    See the drawing at the bottom of that article

    The 3 Most important things about Wind Turbines:
    1) Wind Speed (should be > 12MPH avg)
    2) Rotor Size (should be at least 4' diameter)
    3) Height (should be at least 30' above nearby obstructions)

    Real World results for a home-made 4' diameter Wind Turbine ...
    1) In 12MPH Winds (mounted on the roof) = 38 Watts
    2) In 24MPH Winds (30' above the roof) = 304 Watts

    It is very reasonable that a 51" Wind Turbine will produce 400 Watts in 25MPH winds - if installed properly.
  • MisterB
    MisterB Solar Expert Posts: 156 ✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help

    The best approach is to to the easy tests first and concentrate on the solar side of your system which is going to be easier to work with and gives you a lot more energy output. If you get that staightened out, you should get some decent charge into your batteries. Check all your connections first.

    Checking for a voltage drop across a 25' cable when the voltage changes from one moment to another is difficult. If you can get to a point on the cable close to the windgen and can read from there safely when it's spinning, you can do voltage readings for a minute or 2 and then run down to the batteries and do the same readings and compare the averege voltage. If the difference is big, you can suspect some cable loss but the wind speed changing a few mph could easily throw things off. On the solar side, the voltage is going to be stable on a sunny day and it will be easy to compare voltages and check for voltage loss but since the current is equally stable and fully rated checking current readings against the panel rating is usually easier and if there is a difference, then you can check for voltage loss in the wiring.

    30' above a roof line is not really possible in most suburban areas. My windgen tower technically violates the county height regulations where I live by a few feet but I live in a remote rural corner of the county where inspectors rarely set foot to check anything. If I wanted to do a similar setup anywhere near town, I'd have to go through the complicated process of getting a variance from the county planning department. Inside the town limits, I'd have to deal with the town council and zoning regulations.
  • ggunn
    ggunn Solar Expert Posts: 1,973 ✭✭✭
    Re: PHANTOM ENERGY – Please Help
    Gloves wrote: »

    If a car idles at 900 RPM-ish.... I don't feel like the blades rotate at that speed. While fast, probably only 300 RPM, I have no way to confirm that.
    It's worse than that. On a car, when the tach is reading 900 rpm the alternator is spinning faster than that because of the difference in belt pulley diameters. I'll bet it's in the neighborhood of 2X the engine rpm's.