Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

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  • PhilS
    PhilS Solar Expert Posts: 370 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!
    dagelt wrote: »
    But it looks like a service disconnect for air conditioning units so the service tech does not need to enter the house and find the breaker, he just pull the handle so he know he is completely disconnected from A/C power.

    I think you are right, dagelt. I hadn't seen a fuse like that before but I HAVE seen disconnects similar to it.

    If that's true, then NO fuses?!? Surely not, I'm hoping that they are actually there but meghammock just hasn't found them. Of course, installing fuses and NOT showing the owner where they are is also unconscionable.

    Phil
  • SteveK
    SteveK Solar Expert Posts: 387 ✭✭
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!
    meghammock wrote: »
    Hopefully I won't have to involve professionals any further

    Meg,

    This bunch here on this site are the first professionals you have met so far....and the last one's you will ever need to meet.
  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    I agree it looks like an A/C disconnect. I knew it looked familar but I couldn't put my finger on it at first.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • Kamala
    Kamala Solar Expert Posts: 452 ✭✭
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    Meg,

    Quite a thread you've started. I haven't seen such an event here for some time. You got the guys goin'. And they're great guys.

    But guys... Why hasn't anyone asked the question... "What are your loads?" Maybe I missed something.... I did try to read most of the thread...

    Good luck Meg.

    SEE YA!
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    At this point, Meghan does not have any direct measurements of her loads (no battery monitor/load meters)... As I understand, it is a few lights, TV/DVR, and a propane heater (DC Fan?) in an RV.

    It is a problem... However, the system seems to be discharging OK (nothing unusual for batteries and my guesstimated load of ~300 watts or so a couple hours a night).

    The issue(s) appear to be--Unknown amount of charging with solar panels (some charging--details unknown). And a 6kW Honda Generator possibly charging the batteries with its 8 amp battery tender circuit instead of a real AC battery charger.

    Installer is ready to "buy back" her system instead of trying to help fix/understand what is going on right now.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • meghammock
    meghammock Solar Expert Posts: 43
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    Hey all--Sorry I've been sparse these past several days.. I'm not being neglectful, promise! Just LOTS of stuff going on.. When it rains it pours, eh?!

    Most recent gab is this: We checked the bank after it had time to charge a few days by panels ONLY--it was up to 14.3 or 5!! WOO HOO! BUT, still only held charge for a little over a couple of hours. Poo.

    Tried calling the "company" to ask questions, but all they have to say is that they're sticking to the buy-back agreement. They tried to say we'd have to wait to get our money 'till the system was re-sold to someone else, but after showing them we're not playing any more, they said they could get us our money by the end of the month.. And hopefully reimburse us for all the gas money we've had to use because of their faulty "product". We'll see how that goes, but we've told them the BBB will be notified, and that we didn't appreciate them trying to give us guilt-trips and lying to others when they've acknowledged themselves that their system doesn't work. BOOYA!
    I'm still curious what the problem with the system is (it's still "ours") but am wondering if it'd just be best to order our own system piece-by-piece so we KNOW what's in it and how it's assembeled??
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    Meghan,

    You really need to measure your DC load current (and charging current).

    The best way is with a $160+ Battery Monitor--The cheap way is with something similar to this $60 DC (and AC) current clamp meter.

    The clamp current meter is very safe and easy to use... Plus it is a good diagnostic tool you can move around your system and see what is going on.

    At this point, either will work for you--But if you want to avoid dumping more money--the Clamp Meter is probably a bit more useful and 1/2 or 1/3rd the cost. Its only cost to operate is a pair of AAA batteries (should last many hours of measurements).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!
    still only held charge for a little over a couple of hours

    With no loads? As Bill suggests, check the current draw with everything "off". You could also get the battery fully charged, disconnect the negative cable and let it sit for a day and then measure the voltage. If it stays ~ 12.6 the batteries may still be OK, if it drops much below, your batteries are toast.

    Tony
  • MisterB
    MisterB Solar Expert Posts: 156 ✭✭
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    I haven't read the full thread but it sounds to me like one or more or of the batteries is bad. A quick test of whether the battery bank is at fault or if it has some unseen load on it would be to completely disconnect the battery bank after it has been charging and reaches 14+ volts and put a load like a 50 watt 12 volt light directly accross the battery--with a fuse inline with it, of course--and see how long it lasts. If the bulb starts to dim and dies out after just a few hours or less, then you know you've got a battery bank that doesn't have much storage capacity left.

    BB. wrote: »
    Meghan,

    The cheap way is with something similar to this $60 DC (and AC) current clamp meter.

    But if you want to avoid dumping more money--the Clamp Meter is probably a bit more useful and 1/2 or 1/3rd the cost. Its only cost to operate is a pair of AAA batteries (should last many hours of measurements).

    -Bill

    Thanks for the link Bill, the spring that holds the clamp closed on my AC/DC clamp meter broke recently and I've been thinking about a replacement.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    As a recap, when the "loads are off", the battery voltage seems to stay at a fixed value.

    When the batteries are being discharged, for a first approximation, they are all discharging (4x 6volt for 12 volt bank) with equal voltages. The two parallel strings have a ~0.2 volt difference when they should be in parallel and nearly identical voltage--but have not looked into that too deeply yet.

    The 6kW genset may be charging the battery bank with a 8 amp aux battery charger (Honda aux 12 volt output). They have seen a 120 VAC charger wired in yet--But I would bet since this is an RV, there should be a 120 VAC to 12 VDC "converter" somewhere and all they need to do is plug it into the genset.

    The loads on the battery bank may be around 150-300 watts (TV/DVR/few lights/Propane RV forced air heater). Batteries go down a few 1/10's of a volt with several hours of loads.

    Battery bank may be around freezing in their current weather.

    Things we don't know... No current measurements anywhere. So we do not know the scale of the loads or the charging currents from the various sinks/sources.

    The Solar Charger seems to be working (battery voltage goes up with sunny weather). What ever is charging the battery banks from the genset seems to be doing something--but not sure yet how much current.
    Most recent gab is this: We checked the bank after it had time to charge a few days by panels ONLY--it was up to 14.3 or 5!! WOO HOO! BUT, still only held charge for a little over a couple of hours. Poo.

    We see that the solar charger is getting to 14.4 volts or so--But we don't know how long it stayed there (probably need another 3-5 hours to get to 100% charged on the AGMs).

    Batteries may be damaged now, or not--Just not enough information to know at this time.

    Wiring is a bit of a spaghetti job--So some cleanup and fuses/breakers additions are probably appropriate too.

    At least this is where I understand Meghan and her husband are at right now.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • MisterB
    MisterB Solar Expert Posts: 156 ✭✭
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!
    BB. wrote: »
    The 6kW genset may be charging the battery bank with a 8 amp aux battery charger (Honda aux 12 volt output). They have seen a 120 VAC charger wired in yet--But I would bet since this is an RV, there should be a 120 VAC to 12 VDC "converter" somewhere and all they need to do is plug it into the genset.


    -Bill

    My genset has a 10 amp DC charger but it only really works when there is a load on the AC output. Charge rate is 10-12 amps with an AC load on and 1-3 if there is no load on. I don't know if this applies to all gensets with a DC output but if it doesn't seem to be working, try plugging an AC load in and see if the battery voltage rises.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!
    MisterB wrote: »
    My genset has a 10 amp DC charger but it only really works when there is a load on the AC output. Charge rate is 10-12 amps with an AC load on and 1-3 if there is no load on. I don't know if this applies to all gensets with a DC output but if it doesn't seem to be working, try plugging an AC load in and see if the battery voltage rises.

    Does your gen by any chance have an "eco throttle"? Because if it does that needs to be turned off to properly run the DC output.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    OK I've read or at lest skimmed the posts.

    First suggestion is to verify that the charge controller is an MPPT type!

    If it is not have them come out and pick up the system and report them to BBB as the panels have no business being matched up to a PWM controller, way too much waste. This would show an incredable ignorance and lack of professionalism. If having a 3000watt 12v inverter hooked up to a 210 amp battery bank isn't bad enough...(at 3000 watts draw at 12 volts would be 250 amp x 1.12 for effiecency, and figure a voltage drop, I doubt it would last 20 minutes before hitting low voltage disconnect)

    Now you hooked this up to a camper, did it have an existing battery charger for the utility batteries when connected to AC? Is it off or disconnected? This is not an uncommon feature of campers and might be an ugly loop.

    Is that your camper on their photo gallery page? Not sure the pole mounted panels are getting full sun.

    Might try running an extension cord from your inverter to your TV and a table lamp and disconnect the rest of your system the next comfortable night. your heater might have a dual source heater and be running and heating element as well as the fan. If you hook up you voltage meter to the battery bank then turn on the heater you should see a dramatic voltage drop with a large resistance load like a heating element. This would only be true if you were not running the heater during the day though.

    Good Luck!
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • monoloco
    monoloco Solar Expert Posts: 103 ✭✭
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    I think that the best answer is to sell the system back and try again with someone more reputable.
  • meghammock
    meghammock Solar Expert Posts: 43
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    Good morning, everyone--Phew, am I glad you're still here:)

    I FINALLY got my clamp meter!! Now what/where exactly am I testing with it?? :P Sorry that took me so daggone long.. We barely ever go out near Sears!

    Sooooo, from what I'm reading, it's sounding like they set up a pretty shotty system to begin with?? Pretty sure they'd have set us up with a PWM controller since it's cheaper. They gave us almost all bottom-shelf components, and I haven't seen anything to distinguish it as an MPPT..

    Would ya'll say we may be better off to let them buy their system back (they will pay full price, but they won't fix it. Crazy, eh?) and build a new one of scratch, or try to figure the current one out?? I want to know how to fix this if it's the best option.. I just don't want to get stuck with a crappy system. :P
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    Let's review what equipment you've got and see what's salvageable.

    GE 173 Watt panels. Maybe not the best choice but certainly usable.
    Rayovac 215 Amp hour batteries. Fine if they haven't already been destroyed by chronic undercharging.
    Morningstar PWM controller. Not right with those panels.
    Durafied MSW 3kW inverter. Cheap and you probably won't be happy with it in the long run.
    Rat's nest of bad wiring done by people who just want to make a quick buck. Uh-oh.

    Right now you probably know more about designing & installing a proper solar electric system than the people who did yours.

    So if the batteries have survived you can either change the panels to something more suitable for the Morningstar PWM controller or change the controller for an MPPT type that will make proper use of the panels.

    Then fix all the wiring. That could take a while.

    Use the MSW inverter 'til your sick of it, then by a better one.

    Or get the seller to take the whole lot back and start over.

    I'd say it hinges on two things:
    1). The state of the batteries (if they're damaged, make them buy it back).
    2). How much you'd get from the buy-back vs. the cost of a new, proper system.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    I don't have much to add to what Marc/Cariboocoot said other than you might try to find another solar RE installer in your area and get a review/quote from them. You know more today than last month and can ask them to review your setup and have them tell you what they would do to fix the problems/install new.

    With the clamp meter, you can now measure how much current is going into the battery bank when charging with solar and your generator. And you can measure your loads too.

    Very roughly, if you draw 10 amps for 5 hours, that is 10a*5h=50AH consumed. And it will take ~110% of that (for AGM) to restore that energy used or 1.1*50AH=55AH to properly recharge the battery bank. So, if you solar averages 30 amps charging, it will take ~55AH/30A=1.8hours plus ~2 hours to fully recharge (as batteries approach full charge, the current drops off).

    Your batteries are in parallel--So you will have 100% of the current in one wire coming/going to the batteries, and if you have two parallel strings, you will have 1/2 the current going to each battery. If one battery is handling most of the current (charge/discharge) and the other is not, then there is a wiring/battery problem.
    [FONT=Fixedsys]
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    The DC Clamp meter... Set the meter to DC current. Set the Range to 40 amps (or 400 amps). Push the Zero Button to get it to zero and then clamp it over the wire you wish to measure current. Note that the DC meter will read + or - depending on the direction of current flow (or if you flip the meter over).

    Do several measurements over the day to see what your average charging current is. And again at night, first with nothing turned on (no load), and then each load one at a time so you know how much each draws.

    Then you can measure with your "average" loads turned on (lights, TV, etc.) and figure out how long you can use the power at night.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!
    meghammock wrote: »

    Would ya'll say we may be better off to let them buy their system back (they will pay full price, but they won't fix it. Crazy, eh?) and build a new one of scratch, . :P


    If the bold part is true I would get rid of it after a review and written QUOTE by a GOOD installer. then you can review the components for suitability... before install.

    e
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • meghammock
    meghammock Solar Expert Posts: 43
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    I love this.. Feels like school that's worth attending:)

    Cariboocoot:--Why would the 173w GE panels not be the best for this? (not arguing; just want to know:) )
    --I don't think the batteries are too far gone; I definitely think it's got to do with how the loads are coming in and out..
    --What is it about the PWM type controller that makes it not compatible/so bad? In contrast, what makes the latter so compatible/good?
    --Yeah, I definitely have plans to save up and get a Magnum truesine inverter at some point.. You're right..
    --Is it possible for me to trim the wiring down to make it more manageable/less wasteful??
    --YES, I definitely feel like we came up with MANY more answers than those jokers did.. They have been even slimier lately.. UGH!
    --As far as quality goes, sounds like it'd be wiser to dive in and get an MPPT style controller than switch the panel type, correct? I'd rather have good stuff that's going to LAST and work well, after all..
    --They are offering to pay back the entire contracted amount: $6,414. When I did the math, I believe they gave us a bogus number on how much all the complonents cost together.. I couldn't find a difinitive price on the panels, but everything else was TEENY when compared to the final price!! I'm temped to let them buy it back, then see what ya'll have to say about what parts and components to buy, eh? ;)

    (I certainly don't mind keeping what we've got right now for the time being as our "maiden voyage" system, if we can reuse the panels and whatever else later on.. I plan on replacing the inverter and controller FOR SURE though, and most likely, the batteries before we "upgrade" our system when we have our house built..)

    BB.:
    I did try getting in touch with another solar contractor around here.. Good gracious, they seem to be useless around here! You'd think they'd be itching for the business considering people utilizing solar are a precious commodity around here, but I guess not! I guess it's just like ya'll said.. Either a quick buck, or just side cash when convenient:(
    From the looks of your diagram (and the print-out you gave me that I was reading on the other day) that is our problem though.. The load is being put in AND taken from the same series! We recently tried to ask them about that, and they are no longer trying to answer questions or help us fix it. Would there be any harm in me switching how the loads are connected to the bank? I marked on the bank picture how the loads are fed so ya'll could see more easily in the jumble, and "named" the batteries for easier reference. I was wondering if I could connect the Inverter wires to the 1--2 series instead of Inverter AND Controller wires being on the 3--4 series?? (Though I'm curious why there are 2 like that in the first place??)

    **I asked specifically about moving the inverter wires instead of the controller ones because he cut the dotted blue inverter line too short to go anywhere else, btw.. :P

    Cool.. Are all places on wires safe to use the c-clamp device? And wheeeere exactly do I check to find out how many amps are being used? Would that be within the camper? I think that's where the "company" checked the load the camper was using..
    I get off at 4 now (YAY!) so I will try to run those tests tonight..

    Photowhit:
    I'm not sure about the on-board battery charger, but the single battery the camper came with doesn't seem to be connected to one.. Any ideas where that might be?? I can certainly look tonight.. Good thought! Would that need to be disconnected? I'm pretty sure the heat is strictly propane, other than the blower fan on it.. I had my hubby check on that, but it's certainly worth checking again!!



    Thank you all again SO SO MUCH.. We've been lucky and haven't had to use the generator at night due to warmer weather.. It'll still be nice when we can use the water pump and lights though!!!!!! Oh, and not have wasted over $6k on a useless system!!!

    I hope you're all doing GREAT:) I wish there were a way I could cook you all a big, awesomely delicious meal when this is all said and done! Haha!
  • meghammock
    meghammock Solar Expert Posts: 43
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    Forgot the photo with highlighted wires!! Whoops!
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    Meghan,

    I will try to answer a few of your questions:
    meghammock wrote: »
    I love this.. Feels like school that's worth attending:)

    Cariboocoot:--Why would the 173w GE panels not be the best for this? (not arguing; just want to know:) )
    If I have the correct GE panels, their Max. Power Voltage (Vmp)=25.1volts...

    With a PWM charge controller (simpler, less expensive to make), they are best used with Vmp~17.5volts on a "12 volt" battery bank.
    • 17.5 volts / 25.1 volts = 0.70 = 70% efficient vs the "right panel Vmp"
    It gets into electronics a bit more than you are probably ready for... But basically, the solar panel is running around 15-17 volt output when charging the battery bank instead of 25.1 volts or so... Remembering Power=Voltage*Current; when Voltage drops and current remains the same (the way a solar panel works), then the Power drops too.

    With a MPPT type charge controller (2-3x more expensive), they have a switch mode power supply that allows the MPPT controller to efficiently "down convert" the High Voltage/Low Current of the solar array into the Low Voltage/High Current for the battery bank... For example, a MPPT controller's math would look like:
    • Vmp*Imp (panel) = Vbatt*Ibatt (battery)
    • 25.1 volts * 6.9 amps (solar panel) = 14.5 volts * 11.94 amps (battery bank) = 173 watts charging battery bank
    Where for the GE panel on a PWM power supply:
    • Vbatt*Imp = 14.5 volts * 6.9 amps = 105 watts charging battery
    I have simplified the above a bit--There are about 5% losses with the MPPT charge controller.... Plus hot solar panels do not have Vmp, but a reduced Vmp-hot which reduces MPPT actual output.

    But it is a good start at understanding the differnence.

    The solution would be to install a MPPT charge controller or to replace the GE panels with other panels that have Vmp=~17.5 volts or so...

    But it also depends on money... It is possible that the GE 173 watts panels are less expensive than 120 watt Vmp=17.6 volt solar panels... So, it could still make economic sense to get the GE panels over some other 17.6 volt panels instead.

    However, most people would look at the 173 watt panels and wonder why they only get "121 watts" worth of power from them--and the fact they saved money with a PWM charge controller may not make sense (leaving power on the table).
    --I don't think the batteries are too far gone; I definitely think it's got to do with how the loads are coming in and out..
    Don't know--but they may still be good.
    --What is it about the PWM type controller that makes it not compatible/so bad? In contrast, what makes the latter so compatible/good?
    See above--PWM controllers are quite a bit less expensive... For smaller systems (under 400 watts) a PWM controller may make more sense.

    For systems over 800 watts, MPPT charge controllers are usually better / easier to install and can use less expensive solar panels (those that don't have Vmp=17.6 volts).
    --Yeah, I definitely have plans to save up and get a Magnum truesine inverter at some point.. You're right..
    In the long run, True Sine Wave inverters are a better choice (even if horrendously expensive).

    For your system, you may want to run the small loads with a MorningStar TSW 300 watt 12 volt inverter. It is actually a very nice unit, and can be put in "search mode" so that uses less power when nothing is turned on (sleep mode).

    Use the big MSW inverter for power tools and such. Use the smaller TSW for electronics... Many times having two different sized inverters (and generators) makes good sense. Use the smaller inverter/generators most of the time (and save energy). Use the big inverter/generator when lots of power is needed for power tools, running the wash, etc.
    --Is it possible for me to trim the wiring down to make it more manageable/less wasteful??
    Yes--But you want to make sure you have the correct hardware (bolt on connectors, crimp connectors/tools, etc.) before you start.
    --YES, I definitely feel like we came up with MANY more answers than those jokers did.. They have been even slimier lately.. UGH!
    Ouch!
    --As far as quality goes, sounds like it'd be wiser to dive in and get an MPPT style controller than switch the panel type, correct? I'd rather have good stuff that's going to LAST and work well, after all..
    Either can be a good solution (sell panels back and buy correct ones; or change over to MPPT charge controller).

    One decision point may be based on the question "do you want to add more solar panels in the future?". And are "GE 173 Watt panels still available for a good price".

    Basically, you have to match solar panels to charge controller type and battery bank voltage.

    The downside with the >100 watt solar panels being a lot less expensive is that they do not standarize on Vmp/Imp ratings anymore (Vmp had to be standard to work with PWM controllers and 12/24/48 volt battery banks).

    Today, with MPPT controllers, as long as the current panels match--the MPPT will take care of matching Vmp/Imp of the array to the battery bank voltage (at 95% efficiency).
    --They are offering to pay back the entire contracted amount: $6,414. When I did the math, I believe they gave us a bogus number on how much all the complonents cost together.. I couldn't find a difinitive price on the panels, but everything else was TEENY when compared to the final price!! I'm temped to let them buy it back, then see what ya'll have to say about what parts and components to buy, eh? ;)
    I would be tempted to return the product... They have yet to give you a working/usable system yet.

    Do you have a plan "B" yet?
    • get a smaller Honda eu2000i or eu1000i (1,600 watt or 900 watt) genset to get you by for a few months
    • locate "somebody" that can install the system correctly?
    (I certainly don't mind keeping what we've got right now for the time being as our "maiden voyage" system, if we can reuse the panels and whatever else later on.. I plan on replacing the inverter and controller FOR SURE though, and most likely, the batteries before we "upgrade" our system when we have our house built..)
    You can probably make this system work better... But you may be able to do better with your $6k money back in your pocket and start over. If you can take the hit without your battery power (which has not been working well for you yet).
    BB.:
    I did try getting in touch with another solar contractor around here.. Good gracious, they seem to be useless around here! You'd think they'd be itching for the business considering people utilizing solar are a precious commodity around here, but I guess not! I guess it's just like ya'll said.. Either a quick buck, or just side cash when convenient:(
    Try looking for Boat Builders/Repair companies in the area. They may not do solar, but they can get the rest of the system installed and working well for you (including the generator portion).

    Or, perhaps a good RV company--Ask to see their work/talk to a customer that had them rewire their RV.

    Frankly, if they get the battery/AC charging system/inverter setup working well for you--Doing the Solar PV array + charge controller is pretty much a piece of cake.
    From the looks of your diagram (and the print-out you gave me that I was reading on the other day) that is our problem though.. The load is being put in AND taken from the same series!
    It is OK (and probably the right thing to do) to take the load and apply the charge in the same location. The +/- bus bar/common connection points are chosen to ensure that the parallel battery strings are properly sharing current.

    In your case, you may have a secondary problem with current sharing in the string--but unless there is a broken cable/open/dirty connection, I don't think it is your problem just yet.
    We recently tried to ask them about that, and they are no longer trying to answer questions or help us fix it. Would there be any harm in me switching how the loads are connected to the bank? I marked on the bank picture how the loads are fed so ya'll could see more easily in the jumble, and "named" the batteries for easier reference. I was wondering if I could connect the Inverter wires to the 1--2 series instead of Inverter AND Controller wires being on the 3--4 series?? (Though I'm curious why there are 2 like that in the first place??)
    I am not quite sure I understand your diagram/question--so I don't feel confident giving you an answer just yet... At this point, without further data, we may be just rearranging the deck chairs. Better to understand and fix the other issues first.
    Cool.. Are all places on wires safe to use the c-clamp device? And wheeeere exactly do I check to find out how many amps are being used? Would that be within the camper? I think that's where the "company" checked the load the camper was using..
    The current clamp itself is safe--I believe it is rated for use with up to 600 VAC--Way more voltage than you will see.

    And the current clamp is insulated so it cannot short anything out. Use the 40.00 amp scale unless you need the 400 amp scale (lots of charging current). It will not damage anything if you have the wrong scale.
    Photowhit:
    I'm not sure about the on-board battery charger, but the single battery the camper came with doesn't seem to be connected to one.. Any ideas where that might be?? I can certainly look tonight.. Good thought! Would that need to be disconnected?
    Most RV's come with an "AC Power Converter" -- Basically some sort of 12 volt battery charger system that plugs into 120 VAC power. They are intended to both run your DC loads when you are parked at a campsite when you have AC power, and to recharge the battery bank when you get home from "dry camping".

    Trace the AC wiring from your breaker panel... Generally you will find the AC Converter in the back of one of your cabinets or behind a drawer (pull out the bottom draws under you counters). Or possibly behind an access panel from outside the RV. (I am not an RV guy).

    If you find your AC converter--It would probably make sense to reconnect it to your battery bank and run the AC cord from the converter back to your 6.5kW AC genset. That will make a good dent in properly recharging your battery bank and a better use of your generator fuel.
    I'm pretty sure the heat is strictly propane, other than the blower fan on it.. I had my hubby check on that, but it's certainly worth checking again!!
    Changing/using a propane heater that does not need a fan can save you battery power... You can use the DC Clamp meter to measure the fan current (amps) and estimate how many hours per night the fan runs (1 hour, 3 hours, etc...)... If the fan does not run for hours per night--it may be OK to leave as is for now.

    But, in the end, you do have to account for all of your loads and how much solar/genset recharging power you have. It is a balancing act (power out/power in/generator fuel in/money out:cry:).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • monoloco
    monoloco Solar Expert Posts: 103 ✭✭
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    Seriously, I would sell the system back to them, for 6k you could get a very nice and expandable system with matched components from a reputable company and install it yourself, so you would fully understand your system. I bought my system from our host here, hooked it all up, and have never had any problems.
  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!
    monoloco wrote: »
    Seriously, I would sell the system back to them, for 6k you could get a very nice and expandable system with matched components from a reputable company and install it yourself, so you would fully understand your system...

    I was going to say the same thing.

    Maybe buy the 1000 or 2000 watt Honda as BB suggested to get you through a few weeks so you can read up at your own pace. Then do it yourself. Especially now that you see just how little money they spent on the components you can now spend your $6k for much better components. Plus you'll also have a much more economic generator for the cloudy days.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • dwh
    dwh Solar Expert Posts: 1,341 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!
    meghammock wrote: »
    Forgot the photo with highlighted wires!! Whoops!

    I haven't read the whole thread, but just from looking at that pic, a couple of things jump out at me...

    A) Those battery cables look skinny. I wonder if all the rest of the wiring is undersized.

    B) Why does it look to me like batts 1 & 2 are just sort of hanging out there while all the real work is being done by batts 3 & 4?
  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!
    dwh wrote: »
    B) Why does it look to me like batts 1 & 2 are just sort of hanging out there while all the real work is being done by batts 3 & 4?

    I just took a closer look and you are right, those batts aren't wired correctly. The extra wiring running to 1 and 2 introduces extra resistance so 3 and 4 will always be charged more and then discharged more.

    Then there is the odd red cable just sitting in the bottom left corner not connected to anything...
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • meghammock
    meghammock Solar Expert Posts: 43
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    Arright, ya'll.. Party's on! They finally gave us a full refund! Whereas I feel bad for them 'cause that HAD to be embarrassing, I'm SO glad to have a clean slate to start with..
    I know I'll want to get the MPPT controller & a tsw inverter.. Here are some q's for you though:
      Would it be OK to go ahead & get the T-60 so we can still use it when our system expands? Guessing the answer here is "no", but would it be OK to go ahead and get a larger inverter so we don't have to go drop another big chunk 'o' money when the time comes to expand? Now that I'm starting from scratch and will probably have the MPPT, should I get higher wattage panels, or still go with 17v ones? AWG batteries, or the same kind we had before (the golf cart ones) considering they may have to be replaced once we expand? Wondering if the cheaper option might be smarter there.. There's a fuse link someone posted on here.. Was gonna get those.. Any particular tools that'd make things easier (or are necessary that I might not have)?

    I'm sure I haven't mentioned or thought of things--Lots going on right now (our 5th anniversary, several people not doing well health-wise, living by candle-light.. Although that's kind of fun for the time being.. :P )
    Will start looking at generators, but hope to not have to run off of one for much longer! It gets EXPENSIVE :P

    P.S.- I hope you're doing well!! :D
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    Say, let's do it right this time! :p

    Step One: Loads. Get them figured out and you're half-way home. Once you know how much power you need to supply and for how long the rest is easy.

    That would include what you want to supply now and what you want to expand to later. Sometimes it does make sense to buy the larger charge controller to begin with. Sometimes it's easier to just double them up. There's no sense buying AGM's unless you particularly need their advantages (low gassing, low self-discharge, et cetera). FLA's do fine in most applications, and if you ruin them somehow you're not out so much per Amp hour. As for the panels, buying "real 12 Volt" panels will allow you to use a less expensive PWM controller, which is entirely suitable for a small RV-type system. Again, why spend the money if you don't need to?

    This cheapskate is off to the doctor's now. :p
  • meghammock
    meghammock Solar Expert Posts: 43
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    Uh oh--doctor? Hopefully just for a paper cut or something? :p

    It wouldn't hurt to "oversize" the amount of wattage we get (per panels) would it?? Then match the batteries to them from there? (of course, I say that because we're going to add on to the panels later, so I don't mind having surplus)
    While I'm thinking about panels, do monocrystalines make enough of a difference to dole out the extra do' for thos instead of poly?
    Hahaha I'll probably go ahead and get the MPPT controller if we'll have to get that later on anyways? :)
    BIG relief being able to get the fla's, btw!!!!
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    Be aware, there are two models of TS-60 controllers from MorningStar:
    One is PWM and the other is MPPT (and they look pretty similar, I think). Of course, one is under $200 and the other is over $500--So that should give you a hint. ;)

    At this point, you have the choice to fill your battery box with "appropreate" amount of batteries and design the charging system for that amount.

    The other option is to measure your loads, design the battery bank to support the loads, and then design the solar/generator systems to support that size battery bank/load.

    At this point, if you are going to go with fla's (Flooded Lead Acid?) batteries that fits your power box--You might try an inexpensive set first (i.e., good quality 6 volt "golf cart" type batteries) and see how well that supports you for the next 3 years +/-... After you blow through the first set and have real measurements and experiences, you can then look at optimizing the battery bank for the next time.

    Even if you decide you need 2x more batteries in the near future--you can add more FLA golf cart batteries for now for not much more money and balance out the system to meet your needs.

    From what I have seen, all else being equal (a big IF), If you pay 2x for your battery bank (2x in quality, or 2x in bank size), the batteries will last ~2x longer...

    Spending a lot on your starter bank and making mistakes on setting up/running can be expensive.

    Our host does sell batteries, but give how much they cost to ship, looking for a local battery distributor may save you some money--and give you a local source for information, battery cables, etc. (and recommendations for somebody that knows how to configure a battery system).

    Also, unless you have large power needs or cannot pull start a genset--I would look at getting a Honda eu2000i for ~$920 or so shipped to your door/property... And set it up to siphon from a 5 gallon gas can (you can get a kit, or buy an extra gas cap and make your own).

    Otherwise, generally a small as possible, quiet, electric start inverter genset (Honda, Yamaha, possibly a used RV genest from wrecker, etc.).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Seven
    Seven Solar Expert Posts: 292 ✭✭
    Re: Battery bank not holding charge--Please help!!

    A man once said to learn from your mistakes. A much wiser man said learn from the mistakes of others.
    This thread is going to help many other people, myself included. Thant you to the OP for taking the time to discuss your problems here.