Nickel-Iron batteries

waynefromnscanada
waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
Wondering if anyone has had any experience with Nickle-Iron batteries?
From what I'm reading, life of over 25 years, discharge all the way down to 5% with no damage, high discharge rates don't hurt, and the positive list goes on.
Higher initial cost than lead-acid, but break even point is 8 years. www.ironedison.com (Attn Moderators, pls delete this link if you think it a conflict with out host. Thanks)

Comments

  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

    Wayne, Mike 90045 uses them
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

    Thanks westbranch, appreciate that. Hopefully he'll soon see this and let us know his experience :)
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

    A couple of random posts:
    Windsun wrote: »
    The main reason they fell out of favor is because of their innefiencies. They eat up a substantial portion of the power just in charging and discharging - as much as 40%.

    Oh, you had to go and mention the Ni-Fe batteries.

    I've always been interested in them, but they were always unobtainable. They used to be made in the U.S. until Exide Battery Company bought out the Edison Storage Company and a few years later stopped producing them. According to this website: http://www.nickel-iron-battery.com/ , "No one really knows why the Exide Battery Company killed the technology in North America by 1975."

    You can still possibly get them from http://www.beutilityfree.com/Electric/Ni-Fe , but the owner, John D'Angelo is controversial in my opinion. You can read about the most serious incident here: http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:8hxKZXHTpV4J:www.cpsc.gov/cpscpub/pubs/reports/1998rpt3.pdf+97-CR-312+d'angelo&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgpmdoQ7kgPiM5otNezlg1BRyXBcvqWW0qtAkJsEMTTMqTGOE8AyYzl7AMvuII6IqOtywGfw4XCeJJuLjca3OhyIjs54DleQ_0GQJteVs_me32nB3hvgmmBMpZ2XioFaPOh1z-Z&sig=AHIEtbQS3N-sAT_U3e0Ohw4kQKbrnxx_eQ , and while it seems Mr. D'Angelo isn't completely responsible, he did set in motion the chain of events that led to a 15-year-old boy dying from drinking a solution of KOH that he had delivered in a reused water container, or possibly milk container, as he pled guilty to 15 counts of federal safety violations. There is another website here: http://www.why-did-john-dangelo-go-to-prison.info/ . And I'm just posting this here to inform people, they will have to make their own decision. I've never met him, and have had no dealings with him.

    I guess in the end though, the shortcomings of the Ni-Fe battery prevented it from being widely used.


    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

    Got a huge set at my place. Not sure exactly how efficient they will be, right from the start of bulk, they start bubbling away, which means I'm converting water to gas for the entire charge cycle, not just the end of absorb. With a room full of them, sounds like I'm in a pit of snakes. Hisssss... Glad the eves are all open, that lets all the air in the world circulate in & out.

    Mostly, right now, they are are just floating. The do require a much wider voltage swing than lead acid, so make sure your charge controller (MS MPPT-60 with manual setpoints uploaded) and inverter (XW6048 - ok with 68VDC at input) are OK with the higher voltages. When house is finished, and I'm living there, then I'll be able to report more fully on their suitability.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

    Thanks Mike! That's a whole lot more than I knew before I read your post. Very interesting the gassing and voltage swings. Thanks again and will look forward to any updates.
  • BillBlake
    BillBlake Solar Expert Posts: 49
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries
    Thanks Mike! That's a whole lot more than I knew before I read your post.
    Very interesting the gassing and voltage swings. Thanks again and will look forward to any updates.

    Hello Wayne and Group,

    A couple of fellows I know and myself have been trying to get to the bottom of the Ni-Fe riddles for a while now.
    Few subjects seem to have been the subject of so many half truths, fish wives' tales and misconceptions.
    This doesn't mean that the Ni-Fe Cells do not have some Towering Strengths because we found that they do.

    However this 'Run them into the Ground - Who Cares and They Last Near Forever' sure is not what Changhong
    (The Builders) have said in writing, over and over, for years now.

    There seems to have been a serious lack of test data here in the USA for the Chinese Ni-Fe Cells but they have done
    plenty of testing in China and we have spoken at length with one of their PhD battery chemists along with other experts.

    It's a long, deep story that can't be covered in short Posts but perhaps over time I can make a few points, if that's OK.
    If a person gets bored with battery technology in a hurry they may want to skip this thread.

    The first point is that the LiOH.H2O (Lithium Hydroxide) in the Electrolyte was quadrupled in fairly recent years
    from 10 grams per liter to 40 grams per liter.
    This has had a significant impact that may Not be fully understood by many people anywhere in the world.
    We question the cheap 'Lab Grade' 56.5% LiOH they are using along with the cheap packaging that it has been subjected to in the
    factories and on the slow boat from China.

    Carbonate build-up above 50 g/L in the electrolyte is a HUGE concern and a complex story that takes a lot of work and patience
    to hopefully get to the bottom of it.

    These Ni-Fe Cells are not Edison's and don't claim to be however they may wind up being a huge subject someday.
    Then again the 50% Nickel Content some people speak of TODAY is just another wild 'misconception' - to be polite.
    It's back and forth between jive and greatness.

    For anyone that is interested - what Changhong is saying right now is an excellent place to begin.
    However what they have said over a period of years, put into context, seems to be way more educational.
    I'm a supporter of the Ni-Fe battery technology however I can't live on BS and false promises.

    Perhaps only by really knowing the product and understanding the true strengths and weaknesses can the Ni-Fe Cells
    be properly utilized.

    To date nobody in the USA has really known them.

    At one time Changhong was not playing the 'Solar Sales Angle' which I call "Reverse Blivet Charging."

    When your trying to put 8 hours worth of charge into a 4 hour time slot :-)


    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/blivet


    Solar Ni-Fe cell catalogue


    http://www.changhongbatteries.com/Nickel-lron(Ni-Fe)_c13_m2.2.1.html


    Bill Blake
  • SolaRevolution
    SolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 410 ✭✭
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries
    BillBlake wrote: »
    It's a long, deep story that can't be covered in short Posts but perhaps over time I can make a few points, if that's OK.
    If a person gets bored with battery technology in a hurry they may want to skip this thread.

    I'm very interested. Please post on.

    I'm particularly interested in how they would do in daily cycling vs. stand by use.

    Alex Aragon
  • stephendv
    stephendv Solar Expert Posts: 1,571 ✭✭
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

    From the specs they don't really look that great (Good, but not great). And the manufacturer seems to have chosen to compare them against the worst lead acid batteries they could find.
    Firstly, their cycle life to DoD graph shows the NiFEs doing around 1200 cycles at 80% DoD. This is exactly the same as most forklift batteries- the DIN standard for forklifts is exactly that amount. Some manufacturers advertise 1500 at 80% DoD.

    Secondly, their graph on the temperature effects on lead acids seems a bit overly pessimistic. It starts with the maximum life of 10 years at 25 degrees C. There are lots of solar lead acid batts designed for 20+ year life at 25C.

    In their table comparing comparing lead acids to NiFE they also state that the "operation life" for a lead acid is 3 years.... errrrrr.

    Attachment not found.

    Attachment not found.
  • BillBlake
    BillBlake Solar Expert Posts: 49
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries
    I'm very interested. Please post on.

    I'm particularly interested in how they would do in daily cycling vs. stand by use.

    Alex Aragon


    Hello Alex,

    It may turn out that it's not only the number of Cycles that the Nickel Iron (Ni-Fe) batteries
    have in them but just exactly How Those Cycles Wind Up Getting Used.

    Here's some straight data from Changhong themselves that hasn't been edited, transformed or chopped. That seems to be the new thing.

    Changhong gets used for their Charts, Brochures, etc. but then the stuff gets the hack (edit) job.
    Anything I ever put up is raw and natural since I'm just in this as a challenging, interesting hobby.

    Here is a copy of an email that was sent to John D'Angelo' the unusual
    Father of Chinese / American Ni-Fe Cells.

    Though John got kind of run out (aggravated out) of a Solar Forum
    he is still very interested in Ni-Fe.
    We received 11 emails from him just last week alone.

    Take a look at: 1.6.9 Water Consumption and Gas Evolution in the Changhong Solar Brochure.
    Mike was talking about this.

    That wonderful explanation of what is going on was hacked here in America but we are looking at the Chinese version (in English)
    with the Link that is Posted.


    <snip>

    Changhong NiFe Cells .. Has Your 50 to 100 YEARS ... 'Swinging'




    Oct. 2010


    Changhong NF-S Series Nickel-Iron batteries

    for solar PV application


    1.6.7 Cycling

    The Changhong NF-S series NiFe

    cell is adaptable to a wide range

    of depth of discharge (DOD). The

    number of cycles vary with DOD

    required. The lower DOD is, the

    more number of cycles are. The

    number of cycles reach thousands

    during shallow discharge, while it

    can only reach hundreds of cycles

    during deep discharge. The

    following figure gives the effect of


    DOD on the available cycle life.


    Solar Ni-Fe cell catalogue

    http://www.changhongbatteries.com/Nickel-lron(Ni-Fe)_c13_m2.2.1.html


    NOTE: With once Daily Cycling (See Chart)

    __________________________________________



    100% DOD = Well Under 3 Years



    80% DOD = Around 3.3 Years



    50% DOD = Around 8.6 Years



    30% DOD = Around 16.8 Years



    20% DOD = Around 23 Years






    Jan. 2008



    Changhong NiFe Operators Manual



    1.4

    Life time: The charge and discharge cycles should

    be more than 750 times. During the life time, the

    average discharge capacity should not be less

    than nominal capacity. The minimum discharge

    capacity should be more than 90% of the nominal

    capacity.


    NOTE: < snip >

    "More than 750 Times"

    This is the only Cycles Claim in this Operators Manual.

    However note the HIGH Capacity Claim with the NEW jacked up LiOH.H20 Levels.

    This seems to be the first time in Internet History that this Important Data has ever been pointed out.

    There are plenty of Great Things about the NiFe cells that need to be looked at properly and appreciated.

    Absolutely no need for lies, half truths, myths or fish wives tales.


    Changhong Operators Manual


    NOTE: Prior to Jan. 2008

    with 75% Lower LiOH.H2O Levels at typical USA Temperatures than after the

    Jan. 2008 Operators Manual above.


    4.8 Lifetime

    Life time: The number of full charge and full discharge cycles will be about 1000 times depending

    on proper maintenance > > > > including electrolyte replacement when needed. < < < <

    Much longer lifespans can be expected if regular discharges are less than 20%

    where the number of charge / discharge cycles will be between

    > > > > 5000 to 8000 cycles. < < < <

    The end of the lifespan is defined by operation at 70% capacity or lower

    > > > > after replacing the electrolyte. < < < <

    In many applications the battery will still be very useful for many years or decades beyond this.

    NOTE: "In many applications" can mean many things including Capacity of Less than

    70% being acceptable.


    Stop the Madness.

    Let's deal with Deep Cycle Storage Battery Truths

    so we can quickly implement simple, effective, high tech techniques

    and simple new procedures to create incredibly cost effective

    hybrid storage battery systems.


    <end of snip>


    Bill Blake
  • SolaRevolution
    SolaRevolution Solar Expert Posts: 410 ✭✭
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries
    BillBlake wrote: »
    Changhong NiFe Operators Manual

    1.4

    Life time: The charge and discharge cycles should

    be more than 750 times. During the life time, the

    average discharge capacity should not be less

    than nominal capacity. The minimum discharge

    capacity should be more than 90% of the nominal

    capacity.


    I think I'm getting lost in the translation. What ar they trying to say?

    Are they saying "should" to give directions or to assert minimum expectations?

    "During the life time, the average discharge capacity should not be less than nominal capacity" ? :confused:


    Alex
  • BillBlake
    BillBlake Solar Expert Posts: 49
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries
    I think I'm getting lost in the translation. What ar they trying to say?

    Are they saying "should" to give directions or to assert minimum expectations?

    "During the life time, the average discharge capacity should not be less than nominal capacity" ? :confused:


    Alex


    You have to enjoy a good riddle to even bother with Ni-Fe cells Alex. With different authors at different times
    and different view points it becomes up to you to find a median understanding that you can believe in.

    It's a fight to advance the knowledge base in this Ni-Fe game and you never know where a little piece might come from.
    After covering a few strength's, weaknesses, different charging strategies, etc. it will be time to jump to why I'm actually
    interested in a hybrid Ni-Fe Cell system utilizing a marriage of battery technology that works with opposing weakness and strength.
    The way it really is. Not how some folk lore or sales angle paints it.
    You may laugh it off or you may decide, hey this is really it. Who knows.

    It's a long drawn out story best taken a bit at a time especially when (at this point) most forums will have
    little interest in Ni-Fe. Problems of the past will not be the focus point.
    We will have to swing into a few Lead Acid studies as well or else the punch lines will not add up.


    Bill Blake
  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

    If you are considering alternative battery chemistries, one to seriously consider is flooded NiCad. See about half-way down on this page: http://www.sbsbattery.com/category_desc.php?cPath=3

    Some advantages include the ability to charge with existing lead-acid chargers, similar voltage drop curve as lead-acid with similar dead-battery cutoff voltage, long life, no damage if fully discharged, no damage if stored discharged, good output when cold.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • Windsun
    Windsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

    This is from an old (1995-ish) NREL publication (it may be available online line, but I did not spend a lot of time looking for it):
    [h=3]NiFe Battery Downside Characteristics:[/h]Low cell voltage.
    Very heavy and bulky.
    The low reactivity of the active components limits the high rate performance
    of the cells. They cells take a charge slowly, and give it up slowly.
    Low coulombic efficiency, typically less than 65% *** (ed - this is the killer about NiFe batteries. You will lose 35% or more just in the energy used to charge/discharge them)
    Steep voltage drop off with state of charge
    Low energy density.
    High self discharge rate.
    More pronounced Hydrogen gassing than Nickel-Cadmium
  • BillBlake
    BillBlake Solar Expert Posts: 49
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries
    Windsun wrote: »
    This is from an old (1995-ish) NREL publication (it may be available online line, but I did not spend a lot of time looking for it):

    Hello Windsun, What I'm thinking about would use (in one set-up) about 27% Ni-Fe Cells to hopefully control the overall improved Capacity, Efficiency
    and Longevity of the entire (100%) of ALL the Cells in the battery bank.

    Naturally because of the expense involved I am trying to learn a bit from the experience of others before finalizing my plans.
    This (learning about Ni-Fe from others) has been unusually difficult.

    Some have said that certain Lead Acid Cells (like L-16's) are a whole different Cat today than back in 2000.
    I don't particularly buy that statement.

    With different charging strategies and different electrolyte strategies I do buy that we just may see a lot of improvement in Ni-Fe cells
    as compared to the past.

    Just one fast example. We all know how painful it is Charging that last 20% (or so) is from 80% SOC to 100% SOC with Lead Acid
    (and OTHER) battery technology.

    However without it we quickly stomp and ruin Lead Acid cells.

    As the Cnanghong Battery Chemist PhD totally agrees there is No reason to constantly need that LOW Charge Efficiency TOP slot from 80 - 100%.
    A boost charge from time to time should be enough when you don't need TOTAL CAPACITY today - or any day.

    If we are only looking for say 30% of available Amp Hours the 50% to 80% charging slot should be fine since there are no sulphation
    worries with Ni-Fe.

    We compare against the same 30% of all Amp Hours with Lead Acid but at the 70% to 100% SOC Level.
    Then for the first time in Internet History we dance properly with a true efficiency comparison.
    There is a lot more. The old days may soon be over.

    If it's OK to take some info from another forum and Post it here (with the proper credits) I was just re-reading what may be a GREAT

    example of The NEW Ni-Fe Today. The fellow (Marcus) only did 2 Posts - PERIOD. He had a lot to say about his Ni-Fe Bank (of Three Years)

    in a concise Post (involving Pro's and Con's) in response to a Ni-Fe post.

    He was comparing to his previous Off Grid battery experience of 4 years before the Ni-Fe cells for a
    total of 7 years.

    I was also Off Grid for 7 years long, long ago when Solar Energy was just a little expensive experiment.
    Everything just got constantly run into the ground back then and you just bought more fuel and more batteries all the time.
    At least I did change the oil in the generators from time to time :-)
    Just burnt one water cooled commercial monster up one time at a work site.


    Bill Blake
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

    Sadly, because of the toxic cadmium content, Ni-Cad is out.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • BillBlake
    BillBlake Solar Expert Posts: 49
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

    Just to clear a few things up the 27% in Ni-Fe Cells mentioned before was in rated Amp Hour Capacity - not the number of battery cells.

    The battery chemist is from Changhong. They are involved with a number of different types of Industrial Batteries .

    http://www.changhongbatteries.com/Home.html


    They claim to watch some Solar Forums in the USA but never seem to say anything.
    I jokingly have called them

    ' Changhong and the Electric Indian'.

    On the Net or to their face - makes no difference. It's how you say it.

    It's not that they want to out of their way to make anybody 'too smart' - believe me.
    However with enough enthusiasm and persistence they will slip a little new data out here and there.

    So no I don't have the New Ni-Fe Cells yet and for many years I have never listed what I do have or where it is at
    but that's just my style. Nothing personal.


    Bill Blake
  • techntrek
    techntrek Solar Expert Posts: 1,372 ✭✭✭
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries
    mike90045 wrote: »
    Sadly, becasue of the toxic cadimunm content, Ni-Cad is out.

    In 20 years when the battery is dead, recycle it. It isn't going to poison you between now and then.
    4.5 kw APC UPS powered by a Prius, 12 kw Generac, Honda EU3000is
  • offgridman
    offgridman Registered Users Posts: 2
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries
    BillBlake wrote: »
    Hello Wayne and Group,


    To date nobody in the USA has really known them.

    Bill Blake

    You have got to have your head in the sand or you do not know much about who has been importing nickel iron cells in the USA since 1995. BeUtilityFree, Inc (formally UtilityFree) has "known" the China nickel iron cell since 1995. No other company can claim that and cannot simple because they can't. You seem to believe that there is some 'Mystery" surrounding he nickel iron cell but the fact is that because this company has been importing the cells for such a long time they have just recently upped there warranty to 15 years! In fact right now they have the best warranty in the battery industry (including any lead acid battery)

    You are 100% correct that the cells that China makes are NOT the exact same as the original nickel iron cells, but if they can last as long as the originals they great. Only time will tell but so far it is looking very promising. Beutilityfree has China cells that they have in their possession that where imported in 1995 and are still working fine after one electrolyte change. They are a 500 Ah 24V battery set being used right now in an off grid system.

    Many of the myths our there keep floating around but soon evaporate once you get your hands on a nickel iron battery. Why don't you buy a nickel iron battery set yourself and then find out first hand their operating characteristics. What are you afraid of big Bill? You seem to know everything yet know nothing because you have actually never owned any China nickel iron cells, correct?
  • BillBlake
    BillBlake Solar Expert Posts: 49
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries
    offgridman wrote: »
    You have got to have your head in the sand or you do not know much about who has been importing nickel iron cells in the USA since 1995. BeUtilityFree, Inc (formally UtilityFree) has "known" the China nickel iron cell since 1995. No other company can claim that and cannot simple because they can't. You seem to believe that there is some 'Mystery" surrounding he nickel iron cell but the fact is that because this company has been importing the cells for such a long time they have just recently upped there warranty to 15 years! In fact right now they have the best warranty in the battery industry (including any lead acid battery)

    You are 100% correct that the cells that China makes are NOT the exact same as the original nickel iron cells, but if they can last as long as the originals they great. Only time will tell but so far it is looking very promising. Beutilityfree has China cells that they have in their possession that where imported in 1995 and are still working fine after one electrolyte change. They are a 500 Ah 24V battery set being used right now in an off grid system.

    Many of the myths our there keep floating around but soon evaporate once you get your hands on a nickel iron battery. Why don't you buy a nickel iron battery set yourself and then find out first hand their operating characteristics. What are you afraid of big Bill? You seem to know everything yet know nothing because you have actually never owned any China nickel iron cells, correct?

    Let's see what the Ni-Fe Battery Guarantee actually looks like. OK?
    Are there any 'Strange' Conditions that would give a reasonable person 'Pause' ?

    Be Utility Free Inc.

    (As of 8/1/11 before Mike90045 received his large set of Ni-Fe Cells.)

    BeUtilityFree, Inc.

    Renewable Energy Products (Solar Electric • Solar Heating • Wind Electric) Energy Efficiency Products

    • Design • Engineering • Consultation

    Effective date: August 1, 2011

    BeUtilityFree™, Inc. guarantees to the original user that all Nickel Iron NEW pocket plate batteries will be free from defects in material and workmanship for (12)
    12 years after placed in service and to produce 80% of the manufacturers amp hour capacity rating. User should immediately report any possible defects in writing
    to BeUtilityFree™, Inc. vis email (office@beutilityfree or USPS.

    All batteries claimed to be defective must be returned to BeUtilityFree™, Inc. for evaluation. During the first year from date of shipment we will pay for return shipping
    if cell (s) are found to be defective.

    After first year customer pays all shipping expenses both ways.
    Allow up to 3 weeks for examination of batteries.
    No replacement batteries will be sent unless bad cells are received first. No exceptions.

    Shipping instructions:

    1. Fluid must be emptied from all cell(s) and a small electrolyte sample - 4 onces

    -sent separately from at least 4 cells via USPS or along with the battery shipment to BUF.

    Cell(s) can be shipped via USPS, UPS ground, FedEx ground or DHL Express.

    2. Package must be packaged according to shippers standard practices for the weight of the cell.
    Please use proper packing material that will not crush under the weight of the cell.

    We suggest bubble wrap as the best packing material.

    3. Proper filling out of BOL must be done according to Hazadious material laws at the time BOL

    is filled out. If you need a sample nickel iron BOL we can send it to you.

    4. Must be sent in GLASS containers and NOT plastic.

    The following conditions must be met or guarantee is NULL and VOID:

    1. The batteries are used in a home power system or approved system by BeUtilityFree™,Inc.™ engineering department.

    2. Batteries cannot be installed in an environment that exceeds 80° F on a continual basis,

    such as a box in the sun.

    3. The batteries are handled, stored and installed in accordance with the instruction manual

    sent via email, USPS or shipped with the batteries.

    Proper maintenance records should be kept regarding temperatures, specific gravity,

    cell voltages, and battery carbonate content on a yearly basis for each cell.

    4. Water level must be maintained at the recommended level at all times.

    Only distilled or de-ionized water can be used to replace fluid level. Rain water,

    city water, well water or sea water will void warranty.

    5. Warranty applies only to original owner and does not cover any battery that must be repaired
    or replaced due to misuse, accidents, negligence, tampering, earthquakes or acts of God.

    6. All battery returns must be followed by a Return Authorization Number (RAN) issued by BeUtilityFree™, Inc. In writing to the customer service department.
    Customer is responsible for costs and proper packaging of battery (s). All batteries must be returned to us before guarantee is honored.
    Shipping instructions will be sent with the RAN.

    7. Battery terminals must be TIGHT and CLEAN to assure no arcing occurs during heavy charging
    and discharging of battery.

    8. Electrolyte changes areNOT covered under this warranty. If battery electrolyte becomes con taminated (usually by having the potassium hydroxide turn into
    potassium carbonate with the

    first 10 years then the fluid should be replaced by the owner and an electrolyte change will not effect the warranty period.

    If battery is found to be contaminated with carbonate during a claim
    then the claim will not be honored.

    It is the clients responsibility to monitor the electrolyte carbon content.
    BUF will test your electrolyte for a reasonable fee if you send us a sample.

    9. Some method must be made to allow minimal intake of carbon dioxide from the air.

    Potas sioum hydroxide has an affinity to draw carbon dioxide form the air into the cells
    electro lyter over time.

    Once the cell draws enough electrolyte out of the air and into the electrolyte
    the electrolyte will become saturated with carbon dioxide and the electrolyte turns eventually
    into potassium carbonate.

    Once that happens the cell loses its battery capacity

    and you will notice a loss of capacity in your battery bank.
    It has been our experience so far that nor mally you will need an electrolyte change every 7-10 years.

    The following methods are acceptable to retard the electrolyte from drawing in carbon dioxide
    into the air:

    1. A layer of
    special oil can be placed on the top of the electrolyte cells. The layer of float oil
    The layer of oil must be at least 1/4" thick. (6.25 mm) .

    This oil can be purchased from BUF.

    If any other oil is used form another company than the warranty is void

    unless we have full details of the oil you plan to use and get a letter of approval from BUF.

    2. A cap with a ball of some sort that seals the cap opening.

    3. A self watering system

    4. BUF system (currently in development developed) that was taken from a patented system
    that has since expired

    10. If defective during the first year we will replace free of charge. The second through the tenth years will be warranted on a pro-rated basis.

    The pro-ration formula is Credit = "original purchase price X - 1st year date of Shipment.

    The registration form is filled out within (15) fifteen days of receiving batteries and sent to:

    Att: Customer Service
    BeUtilityFree™, Inc.
    14149 County Rd. 26
    Fort Lupton, CO. 80621


    It's actually 'little Bill. Remember that Ned! :-)

    "If battery is found to be contaminated with carbonate during a claim
    then the claim will not be honored."

    Oooohhh. We need to watch that electrolyte Mike!

    "4. Must be sent in GLASS containers and NOT plastic."

    If plastic is good enough to form the actual battery cases, what's the fear here, I asks?

    "If any other oil is used form another company than the warranty is void <snip>"

    Ooohhh. Will you be 'easy on us' ? I feel there will be a LOT of Electrolyte Replacements COMING SOON!

    "It is the clients responsibility to monitor the electrolyte carbon content.
    BUF will test your electrolyte for a reasonable fee if you send us a sample".

    What's a reasonable fee when old John will be in his 70's long before the guarantee runs out.
    He may not be able to compete with Changhong Batteries themselves who are quietly testing
    cutting his throat for more USA sales - right now.

    Then you have a new Competitor telling everybody they should Discharge the Ni-Fe Cells to 85% DOD
    (in writing). We all have eyes and can see that statement is nothing but a desperate attempt to put a dollar in his pocket based
    on false fabrications made on THE BACK of his 'Brother Solar Man'.

    YEAH - I just want to jump right into this Ni-Fe Deal without getting to the bottom of it first ;-)
    Who cares about well over 25 grand (in advance) going to one of two guys
    Dime-ing each other to death on the Internet. Naturally you can see it in writing.

    Bill Blake


    P.S. There is just too much for me to keep going on this Guarantee.

    I do appreciate having things sent to me in writing! All that he said, she said isn't the little Bill way :-)
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

    Extremely interesting "warranty"!
    Are they totally insane?
    I would be if I ever bought their product!
  • BillBlake
    BillBlake Solar Expert Posts: 49
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries
    Extremely interesting "warranty"!
    Are they totally insane?
    I would be if I ever bought their product!

    It is a rather Wild Ni-Fe Document.

    What say you "offgridman"?

    Since your here with us and watch what I say - Defend Yourself.

    Soon I would like to look at an AD where Brandon Williams of Iron Edison Batteries

    Lays trash to ALL Lead Acid Storage Batteries.

    Yes I have an interest in Ni-Fe (for possible special applications) but have liked the Lead Acid batteries

    from the Rolls Surrette Batteries Company (The Grandson's) for quite some time now.

    See the 5000 Series Life Cycles Chart (at the bottom of the page) and compare it to Ni-Fe Cells.

    From 50% DOD to 100% DOD the Rolls Batteries STOMPS the Ni-Fe Batteries.

    AFTER ELECTROLYTE CHANGES according to the Ni-Fe Gospel of Changhong.

    http://www.rollsbattery.com/content/specifications-renewable

    You have to be 'easy with Ni-Fe' - not rough like little Bill was with Ned in the Clint Eastwood movie 'Unforgiven'. :-)

    Brandon Williams and I have exchanged many Ni-Fe emails and I have provided key Ni-Fe information to him in the past.
    John and I also run a whole lot of Ni-Fe stuff back and forth.

    However I don't like the Jive I now see getting pushed by Brandon on his 'Brother Solar Man.'
    There is just no gentle way to say it. Jive is a bit gentle of a word in this case to be honest with you.

    Earlier tonight I sent both John D'Angelo "offgridman" and Brandon Williams the material (the AD)
    that I wish to Post here. Wanted Brandon to have plenty of time to get ready to Defend Himself.

    His AD is called:

    'Understanding the 20 Year Lead Acid Warranty'

    Where Brandon attacks Lead Acid Batteries and claims the Changhong Ni-Fe Batteries should be run into the ground

    to 85% DOD (85% DEAD) and they kind of Likes it :-)

    Brandon claims in this Fairy Tale that every time you 'DO Your Ni-Fe Cells' like this for 7 to 10 years

    You just keep changing the Electrolyte and they are LIKE NEW AGAIN for another 7 to 10 years.

    It like FREE CANDY for one and all.

    Long as you put thousands of dollars in his pocket - anything is possible. It kills me - it really does.

    If ONLY Changhong Batteries themselves could believe a word of that Ni-FE Ad.

    Big Money WOE to anyone that buys into this story.

    Let's see how long that Electrolyte really lasts.

    MANY Old Timers actually changed the Ni-Fe Electrolyte every year or even every 8 months with extreme usage.
    Even 50% DOD in some cases got a GOOD flush job and a CHANGE in one year.
    Naturally I have some reliable accounts from how they did it in the early 1900's in writing before saying anything.

    Word is Ni-Fe really will last for decades and decades IF you NEVER let that carbonate DO whatever it does to the cell plates.
    I believe them. With work, lots of expense and no fairy tales you have a real survival instrument there.

    Between the Secrets of the Ancients and Modern Chinese Technology there can be a place for these Ni-Fe cells but
    the nasty, arrogant USA Reagent Grade, ACS Certified, Lithium Hydroxide people forced me to come up with an Amended

    'Theory of Battery-tivity' on 5/5/12.

    I can now cut the overpriced Lithium Hydroxide Mugs out completely - if need be.
    I actually like the KOH guys.
    The project that I am involved with just demands a solution. Has no real favorites.

    When Mike Drops the Dime on his first Ni-Fe Carbonate Test findings to you - Much will be revealed.
    There should be some serious shock and awe. Even RIGHT NOW. Get that check book ready for Freddy.

    However the huge problem is the cheap, sub grade LiOH.H20. This is really Looming Large now that China decided to jack the LiOH up by 400%.

    China says that not only did the Ni-Fe Capacity and Efficiency go up but the
    Self Discharge rate went down. They seemed real pleased with jacking up the LiOH.

    Unfortunately the Titration Tests 'Diamond John' sells for 180 bucks are not slick enough to pick up
    the Lithium Carbonate - the silent killer of a beautiful battery technology.

    The tests just look for Potassium Carbonate.
    We will get it all figured out a bit at a time.
    But Figure on plenty of electrolyte changes and plenty of GOOD LiOH if you plan on playing to win.
    This Ni-Fe is a Rich Man's Game from start to the 180 dollar test kit to the refills to all the distilled water
    (but wait - most Distilled Water Tests Acidic).

    So your feeding yet more CO2 into the batteries because you didn't know it was in your Money Water.

    Don't worry we will beat the whole riddle with innovative solutions - a little at a time.


    Bill Blake
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

    Offgridman has been banned for 7 days (a wee bit on the aggressive side)--Ban will be lifted May 26th ~11am PDT.

    So he is not able to answer at this time.

    We try to keep a friendly and civil forum here. Joking around a bit is OK--but beware that forum jokes can easily be taken the "wrong way".

    -Bill "Moderator" B.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • 65DegN
    65DegN Solar Expert Posts: 109 ✭✭
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries
    techntrek wrote: »
    In 20 years when the battery is dead, recycle it. It isn't going to poison you between now and then.
    ]
    Problem is you really don't know that. Any time you are dealing with liquid the potential for a spill is there. I have seen more than one set of brand new FLA batteries break when they were subject to sub-zero temperatures and had become discharged over a period of weeks to several months unattended. Using redundant containers certainly helps. There is also the potential for explosion to breach containment.
    Very low toxicity is one thing I like about the NiFe batteries.
  • Iron Bran
    Iron Bran Registered Users Posts: 10
    Re: Nickle-Iron batteries

    This is a great discussion. For those of you wondering what the batteries actually look like, please enjoy these photos of Iron Edison battery projects...

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  • Iron Bran
    Iron Bran Registered Users Posts: 10
    Re: Nickel-Iron batteries

    What matters to me is performance. The Iron Edison batteries were tested at the National Renewable Energy Lab (nrel.gov if you are interested). The results show that the Iron Edison batteries provide up to 119% of amp hour capacity when discharged at the 20 hour rate. Talk is cheap, the results speak for themselves.

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    PS - This thread should probably be called Nickel Iron batteries (not Nickle)
  • MattZ
    MattZ Registered Users Posts: 2

    mike95490

    If you are still on I would like to compare my results with yours. 
    I Have a Nickel Iron system (chinese Batteries) 800ah 48 volt system, Outback Inverters
    We have been living offgrid for 3 years now with them. We continue to add to the house, Currently roughly 5,000 sq ft. We Have all the amenities of a normal home. 
    I want to get another Bank to put in parallel with this current system, because the Air conditioners in the summer really draw them down at night and the gen kicks on about once a week. 
    The winter i have no issues, I will o 4-6 months without the Gen Kicking on
    I live in Missouri
    I am curious if you have put in a parallel system?
    I am Also curious if you know the Process for changing out the electrolite?
    Also curious if you know when is a good indication to change out the electrolite or if its based on time rather than Chemical testing?
    Thanks for the help
    I feel the exact same way (Ask me in 15 years if Im happy with them, but so far so good)
    NiFe 800ah Outback Inverters, 16,000 watt array, 22KW generac, 48 volt system, 5000 sq ft home
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes Mike is still posting...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I run a single string of 800ah cells @ 48V nominal

    I've been stalling on changing out the electrolyte.  It's going to be nasty, and I'll need some sort of a lift or engine stand.  Each of my batteries, full, weighs about 90 lbs, if I recall correctly.   I have to unbolt the terminals, haul the battery out of the shed, remove the cap and dump it upside down to get the lye (electrolyte) out. Then refill.  Mixing the new electrolyte, I can do 4 gal at a time, in 5 gal buckets, and let them cool overnight.  Then place back into service.
    I'm going to allow a week for this, and will  have to run a sacrificial bank of GC-2 batteries for that week, and then sell them used.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,