Sundanzer or Sunfrost?

I'm designing a solar home which I'll build, hopefully next year, in western North Carolina. I currently live in an apartment with a refrigerator-freezer; the freezer is 96 L and contains frozen fruits for smoothies, meat, bones, stock made from bones, henna, and other stuff. The fridge is 258 L and contains a water dispenser, various fruits and vegetables, grains, cheese, and when I have recently bought it, meat. The fridge is probably an adequate size for what I'll need, but I suspect the freezer is not. I'm planning to grow blueberries, raspberries, and probably other fruit and have a flock of guineas. How big a freezer should I get, and what kind?

Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    Re: Sundanzer or Sunfrost?

    In general, assuming you live there 9+ months of the year, an electric fridge is a better choice than propane... And finding a good quality Energy Star rated refrigerator and/or freezer is usually much less expensive than getting one of the products designed for "off grid" use.

    The energy star refrigerators are almost as efficient as a Sundanzer or Sunfrost, and the money you save buying a Whirlpool or similar can be put to a bit more solar panels and larger inverter instead.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Slappy
    Slappy Solar Expert Posts: 251 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Sundanzer or Sunfrost?

    matter of choice, i have the sundanzer 8.1 cu ft. sips very little power, it does 12/24 volt systems, and if not carefull, the fridge will freeze your food, and it is quite as a mouse, mine is the chest type of refridge, less plumming to go wrong, becase it runs from straigt from the battery bank. very happy with the unit, and will order thier freezer unit as funding allows. But yes the the freezer also come in the 8.1 cu ft. but it cost more, but the AC units needs an inverter(added cost, and more to go wrong. and in return that mean less to go wrong with the set up, and coversion losses from using an power inverter.
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Sundanzer or Sunfrost?
    BB. wrote: »

    The energy star refrigerators are almost as efficient as a Sundanzer or Sunfrost, and the money you save buying a Whirlpool or similar can be put to a bit more solar panels and larger inverter instead.

    -Bill

    Totally agree, and you'd still be money ahead, not to mention the cost of servicing or replacement of said fridge when needed. Things have indeed come a long way efficiency-wise since the days when Sundanzer or Sunfrost were the only way to go.
  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Sundanzer or Sunfrost?

    Should I get a separate freezer? How many liters? How many watts?

    If you've used a top-loading refrigerator, what's it like? I have a Vita-Mix pitcher that I usually keep in the fridge, can I do that with a top-load?
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    Re: Sundanzer or Sunfrost?

    Top load refrigerator (typically a converted chest freezer) seems to be a very male/female thing...

    It appears most males don't care and/or appreciate that the top load uses 1/4 the power of a typical front load fridge.

    And females (in general) seem to hate top load as a main refrigerator (always having to move around baskets to get at stuff underneath).

    In the end, a separate energy star rated top load (or even front load with automatic defrost) is probably the best way to go (not that all Energy Star ratings are real).

    It will very much end up being the amount of food you want/need to store (without canning) vs how much you will pay for the appliances and solar pv system needed to run it.

    Do you have a budget yet? Off-grid power costs around $1-$2+ per kWH (assuming 20 year system life and replacing charge controllers/inverters/batteries every 10 years or so)...

    For a very energy efficient front load, non-automatic defrost, 15 cuft freezer, you are looking at around 1kWH per day... That is $365-$720 per year cost to run that freezer (really rough average--and you have to put that money up-front, not pay it out every month like a utility bill).

    Add the cost of the freezer (or off-grid type freezer)--How much is the food inside worth too you...

    Only you and your family can make these trade-offs/decisions.

    Alternatives (canning, smoking/drying, preserving, root cellars, etc.) for long term food storage may help you reduce the costs of the modern costs of storage.

    Note, if you can keep the fridge/freezer in cooler areas of the home (or cool basement) vs hot kitchen/sunny side of the house will help reduce power usage too.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • System2
    System2 Posts: 6,290 admin
    Re: Sundanzer or Sunfrost?

    I am male and single, but planning to search in Central America for my wife.

    I don't keep track of how much frozen fruit I buy, but taking the blueberries, I estimate I buy a 1.36 kg bag every month or two. I just measured the density; it's between 0.52 and 0.60 g/ml, call it 0.56. If I buy a bag every month, but when I'm there I'll harvest blueberries once a year and freeze them, that's 29 liters a year. I'll need about the same space for raspberries, but I don't know if the season is the same.

    Do you have a picture of a top-load fridge?

    The house is 140 m² first floor, plus a second floor, but no basement. The climate is cooler than here in Charlotte; the average temperature in the hottest month is about 25 °C, whereas I've had indoor temperatures of 33 with the AC broken. (The heat fins of the cooling coils had rusted.)

    I don't have a budget. I do have more money than I've spent on a house, so that shouldn't be a problem. But I need to make an energy budget so that I can figure out how many panels and batteries.

    "1 kW per day" makes no sense. Do you mean 1 kW, 1 kW·h/d, or what?
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    Re: Sundanzer or Sunfrost?

    Sorry, that was a typo--Is 1kWH per day (1,000 Watt*Hours) is about the minimum power usage for a standard very energy efficient standard 120 VAC (or 230 VAC?) refrigerator. It can be easily more, depending on efficiency, room temperature, and how much the door is opened, ice is being made, etc...

    A top load fridge--Just a chest/top load freezer with a thermostat added that works to keep the internal temperature to just above freezing.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Sundanzer or Sunfrost?

    Carokeet;

    Only you can calculate your needs for storage capacity. How big is what you have now? Does it work for you, or do you need more capacity? If you're adding a wife to the household you will need more. Trust me; my wife is responsible for 80% of the refrigeration capacity around here. I don't know what it all is, but she "needs" it. :p

    Bill meant to say 1 kilowatt hour I'm sure. That's about how much a really efficient refrigerator will use in a day. Mine at the cabin uses 1.2 kW hours, and I've tested "energy star" units that run 2 kW hours - for the same capacity. You might want to read through this thread that lots of people have put their 'frige numbers in: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?t=12272

    Personally I'd pick a standard 'frige over other options in a full-time, family household. There's more to consider than just efficiency: ease of use and availability/service are not to be ignored.
  • bmet
    bmet Solar Expert Posts: 630 ✭✭
    Re: Sundanzer or Sunfrost?
    Carokeet wrote: »
    I am male and single, but planning to search in Central America for my wife.

    I don't have a budget. I do have more money than I've spent on a house, so that shouldn't be a problem. But I need to make an energy budget so that I can figure out how many panels and batteries.

    You should search for an Energy Star efficient wife! :D
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Sundanzer or Sunfrost?

    So, here's the #'s for my $900 Frigidaire 18cf frostless Energy Star, from my kill-a-watt.

    688hr 17.6 KWh = 28 days @ 0.628 KWh daily.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Sundanzer or Sunfrost?
    bmet wrote: »
    You should search for an Energy Star efficient wife! :D

    THAT my friend may well be THE most important bit of advice you've ever been given! ESPECIALLY if you're going to be living off grid! And I definitely am NOT joking! To have one half of the relationship being energy efficient, while the other has no grasp of the concept of conservation and cannot be made to understand, will lead to a life of dead and destroyed batteries. Sad, but true. Sad but experienced by way too many people. :cry:
  • Slappy
    Slappy Solar Expert Posts: 251 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Sundanzer or Sunfrost?
    bmet wrote: »
    You should search for an Energy Star efficient wife! :D

    thank goodness i am one of the few lucky ones, she is all out for saving a dollar, and low and behold she does not even carry a pocket book. :D:D:D
  • waynefromnscanada
    waynefromnscanada Solar Expert Posts: 3,009 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Sundanzer or Sunfrost?
    Slappy wrote: »
    thank goodness i am one of the few lucky ones, she is all out for saving a dollar, and low and behold she does not even carry a pocket book. :D:D:D

    Hahaha Oh that my poor cousin could have been so lucky! :p
  • jagec
    jagec Solar Expert Posts: 157 ✭✭
    Re: Sundanzer or Sunfrost?
    Slappy wrote: »
    thank goodness i am one of the few lucky ones, she is all out for saving a dollar, and low and behold she does not even carry a pocket book. :D:D:D

    OK, that certainly helps HER save some dollars...but is she as careful with YOUR dollars?:p
  • Slappy
    Slappy Solar Expert Posts: 251 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Sundanzer or Sunfrost?
    jagec wrote: »
    OK, that certainly helps HER save some dollars...but is she as careful with YOUR dollars?:p


    Believe it or not she is :D
  • Cassey
    Cassey Registered Users Posts: 4
    edited September 2016 #17
    Hi all, just stumbled across this 5 year old post and was curious if anyone had updates?

    I have a new building that I'm looking to install (2) 22cf class freezers and likely a fridge.  Just got the local grid installed, but as one friend put it, I'm "on the backside of nowhere".  Don't lose power often, but can go down for days when I do.  Really REALLY tired of modern appliances that last 4-5 years before their circuit boards blow - was thinking about nice, simple, propane powered units.  Sunfrost has a lot of FUD on propane, likely because they are cheaper and larger than their units.  Just came across Sundanzer.  

    Asking here because I wan't something that can survive a few weeks without power (or years in a SHTF situation).  Propane gives me the first, but only the 2nd if I get a grossly oversized tank.  Still, might be nice to have propane available for a backup generator...  

    Oh, why (2) huge freezers?  We raise our own beef and chickens... and tend to use the whole animal.  Which bring up a point:  I need to be able to load a unit up with 500+ lbs of meat and not have it take more than a day or so to freeze it solid (meat will likely be around 40F) - so anything with an undersized compressor isn't going to cut it.

    Any suggestions?

    btw - did a bit of research on Energy Star chest freezers over at https://www.energystar.gov.  There are only 2 chest freezers rated, both are 15.6 cf Frigidaire units rated at 275 kWh/year.  Their larger 21.6 cf unit draws 383 kWh (under whatever test conditions Energy Star uses), which is virtually identical power/cubic foot.  Most 20.4 cf uprights use about 100 kWh more, but are automatic defrost, which dries out meat.

    Haven't found (yet) a Energy Guide for a Sun Frost, but ballpark their F19 (16 cf) uses 450-600 kWh/year using the stats they provide - which would imply they are LESS efficient than a unit costing a fraction of what they charge.
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
    Welcome to the forum Cassey,

    Don't forget to look at the Stecca fridges.  They use the same Danfoss compressor that Sundanzer and Sunfrost use.
    Cassey said:
    Which bring up a point:  I need to be able to load a unit up with 500+ lbs of meat and not have it take more than a day or so to freeze it solid (meat will likely be around 40F) - so anything with an undersized compressor isn't going to cut it.
    The ultra efficient fridges do have 'undersized' compressors and are not a good choice to freeze 500 pounds of warm meat.  I have an old upright freezer in my garage.  The shelves are not adjustable... the freon circulates through the shelves and cools the meat from the shelves.  If I have a lot of warm food to freeze, I plug in the old freezer for a day (using generator if necessary) and then put the food in the chest freezers after it is frozen.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Cassey
    Cassey Registered Users Posts: 4
    That sounds like a plan, except I don't have such an old freezer.  Any idea where I could get one?
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    If you only plan on lasting ~2 weeks maximum for a power outage (weather related outage vs end of the world)--A genset (typically propane fired for long term emergency fuel storage) would be hard to beat.

    Cost wise--A good quality chest freezer (non-frost free) or an upright (frost free) freezer is going to be most cost effective... Just plug them into a genset for ~12 hours per day after the first 24 hours of power loss.

    If you store fuel anyway (gasoline or diesel with fuel stabilizer) for cars/trucks/tractors anyway, then a genset that uses that type of fuel you have on site would work well.

    More or less, if your power needs are not large--A smaller genset like a Honda eu2000i (1,800 watt) genset does not use very much fuel (maybe around 4-9 hours of run-time on 1.1 gallons of gasoline). Store (14 days * 2 gallons per day=) ~28 gallons of gasoline (fuel stabilized) replaced every 6-12 months will do well (run the genset in the evening for lights+radio while cooling the freezers).

    You can run larger gensets (I have not seen "small diesel" gensets)... A 4 kWatt unit would run your house pretty well (but use 2-4x more fuel per day).

    If you have propane onsite anyway (stove, water heating, drier, heating)--Then a larger propane genset (or you can find smaller gensets with propane conversions) would probably be cost effective for your needs (when you get hit with, relatively, rare power outages.

    I would not suggest using a propane freezer for your needs... They do need maintenance, and if you run them on DC or AC power, they are not very energy efficient. However for shorter term use, propane fridge/freezers tend not to use that much propane (smaller fridge+freezer something like 1/2 lb of propane per day??? Propane is ~5 lbs per gallon).

    Battery based backup for larger systems (running a couple of freezers from a solar/battery based system is a "medium" sized system) for emergency backup tends not to be very cost effective (very expensive to install, then replace batteries every X years, electronics every ~10+ years). Batteries will last something like 3-5 years (for golf car batteries) and perhaps ~6-8 years for "higher end" batteries whether they are used or just "float" service. A genset + stored fuel is usually more cost effective and useful for rare/random power outages. Keeping the gensets (and your power needs) small and matched to your loads (don't get the 17 kWatt genset from Costco which will drink a couple of gallons of propane per hour just to run your 2x freezers) unless you really want the large genset (i.e., need to run your home based business/farm whether there is utility power or not).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Cassey
    Cassey Registered Users Posts: 4
    Thanks.  Office and Home are about 500 feet away, so not practical to run both from a single generator.  Want solar at both eventually, but the math on doing the freezers wasn't very pretty.  Really only justifiable for End of World scenarios (due to batteries).  With tax credits, justifiable in the city, but not the country, for grid-tie (the city power utility has a lock on rebates - you have to be in their service area to qualify.  Which is of course insane, and typical of government.  Welcome to Missouri.)

    Plenty to think about.  Surprisingly few manufacturers of large (20+ cf) chest freezers.  So far  have only found one model of Frigidaire and one Westinghouse.  Both pretty much match on power consumption per CF with energy star rated models.  Surprised that Frigidaire is advertising a 22% efficiency gain in 2014 models vs. 2013 ones.  Guessing some law kicked in.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,433 admin
    There are folks that specilize in Marine DC "custom" fridge/freezers (use a 12/24 VDC compressor for larger motor yachts and sail boats). As I understand, these are not a cheap solution--But if you needed a reliable/long term freezer/cooler option (food/medicine storage/etc.) that was not AC mains powered/short term genset--It may be a viable option.

    Otherwise, canning, smoking/drying, freeze drying--Like was done 100+ years ago--At least for your emergency food supplies, is probably the way to go.

    Heard an ad for a home freeze drying unit--Don't know anything about it or the company--But may be a possibility:

    https://harvestright.com/

    $3,000 + supplies minimum.... Ouch.

    -Bill

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,731 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    500 feet is not a problem BTW. We do that all the time!  Federal tax credit 30% is good until 2019 and it is good for offgrid as well. As long as you buy solar panels the whole system including labor (not yours) is good. Missouri tax incentives are probably less than 7 percent so many do not worry about dealing with the state. You may need to deal with your building department but many do not care what you do to an existing structure offgrid. You do need to check that.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,812 ✭✭✭✭
    Propane weighs 4.11 pounds/gallon.

    The great thing about the chest freezer is the cold, dense air does not come tumbling out when the door is opened. They also seem to grow more efficient with each passing year. That is speaking of both refrigerators and freezers. So I would probably not buy an older, used model if possible. Look for thick sides and top if evaluating a used unit.

     Habitat for Humanity always carries tons of used appliances by the way. Great place for microwaves, washers/dryers, etc. By saving money on appliance$, you can invest in more panels and batteries which you will never regret. The majority of the solar problems presented on this board are rooted in undersized arrays for panels and/or batteries.

    My new 14.5 cubic foot freezer hums along using just 80 watts. Still adds up,
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • Cassey
    Cassey Registered Users Posts: 4
    500 feet is not a problem BTW. We do that all the time!  Federal tax credit 30% is good until 2019 and it is good for offgrid as well. As long as you buy solar panels the whole system including labor (not yours) is good. Missouri tax incentives are probably less than 7 percent so many do not worry about dealing with the state. You may need to deal with your building department but many do not care what you do to an existing structure offgrid. You do need to check that.
    Building department?  lol... the farm is VERY rural, I didn't need a permit to build my house. and the electric company had me hook up my own meter.
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,731 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    That is why I said you may have to deal with the building department  ;)  I do systems all over the states/world.
    I have to cover everything I say here. 
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net