Real-Time, "Live" Portable Setup? Panel & Inverter Only?

Light
Light Registered Users Posts: 5
Hi all.

Was going to put this in the Off-Grid section, but seemed more fitting here.
And, also wasn't sure just how to precisely search to see if this has been asked before (I'm sure it has).


Still in the very early stages of piecing an off-grid system together.

So far only have 2 components:

Xantrex PROwatt SW2000 2000w Inverter
Xantrex C60 60A PWM Charge Controller

Was thinking of some other uses, such as an emergency portable use if needed, before I ever get around to using these items in a permanent system.
Rigging up a simple, fairly portable type system such as for running a laptop or other smaller electronics.

Right now I plan to buy just one good panel. Have some funds right now, not much, and may not have them down the road, so figure, might as well buy something of use.

Just to note, will be traveling for quite some time and therefore not at home to make use of these items. Trying to plan & research now while I have the time.
Probably will get a panel or two and then just have to wait until doing anything else.

The question is:
Can I literally just hook up the panel right to the inverter and plug in a laptop for example, and use in real time during daylight periods so long as the panel is outputting?
Or do I need to use the charge controller as well?
In other words, I know batteries are sensitive and need the charge controller, but does an inverter when using without a battery.

Figured too, if I happen to never get around to setting up a proper system, would still like to at least be able to make use of these 2 items for something.

I don't have any batteries right now and this of course greatly shapes the question/answer, otherwise, simple, just feed into the battery via the charge controller.
Considering that I won't be home for some time (work on the road), I was advised elsewhere on this forum to not buy batteries now as I won't be using them, for quite a while actually.

Thanks a lot for any help.

Comments

  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Real-Time, "Live" Portable Setup? Panel & Inverter Only?

    Short answer: nope.

    Long answer:
    Inverters of the off-grid variety need a battery to run off of. The panels and charge controller recharge the battery. Without the battery there is no stability of Voltage and current. A PWM charge controller will just pass whatever the panels put out (which can vary from 0 to over 20 Volts and Amperage of 0 to whatever the Isc of the panel is) and an MPPT type won't even fire up without a battery.

    No battery = no system.

    Got to have all the components: battery to run inverter and/or DC loads, panel(s) to recharge battery, charge controller to regulate charging.

    You should get a better idea of what you actually want to use the set up for, so that you can size the battery properly. Since you must have one, might as well get one that will suit needs.

    You may have got confused by grid-tie inverters, most of which power directly from the panels. But that is a quite different system. And in essence the GT's "battery" is the grid.
  • Light
    Light Registered Users Posts: 5
    Re: Real-Time, "Live" Portable Setup? Panel & Inverter Only?

    Great answer! Thank you!! :D I get it now. ;)

    I was just thinking, if I never got around to setting up an off-grid system, that if an emergency came about, I could use the components I already have for at least something, such as charging/running some small electronics.

    If I do buy just a panel at least for now and pick up a battery wherever then I see I could rig up something for some sort of emergency backup and if I still go as planned in the sort of distant future with getting this off grid system together, I'll properly buy like panels and batteries then. And just keep the one panel like a backup or just sell it.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Real-Time, "Live" Portable Setup? Panel & Inverter Only?

    Here is information about building a small emergency/system to learn on projects:

    Emergency Power

    Basically a very long thread that starts from the beginning with a few vague requirements through design and assembly for a "portable" solar RE off-grid power box.

    And here is another example by Mike90045 called the Solar Monolith:

    attachment.php?attachmentid=384&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1234752636

    attachment.php?attachmentid=385&stc=1&thumb=1&d=1234752653

    Update pictures/information here.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • bmet
    bmet Solar Expert Posts: 630 ✭✭
    Re: Real-Time, "Live" Portable Setup? Panel & Inverter Only?

    That must be a pain having to pull the batteries to transition from vertical to horizontal for loading. What type of glass matt battery could one use so that the box could be tipped without resorting to removal? Could a sealed, valve-regulated battery operate on its side?
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Real-Time, "Live" Portable Setup? Panel & Inverter Only?

    I do not believe a VRLA can operate on its side--However, any (most?) AGM should be able to be operated on side (as always, check the manual).

    You should be able to tip VRLA without problem during transport.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • rplarry
    rplarry Solar Expert Posts: 203 ✭✭
    Re: Real-Time, "Live" Portable Setup? Panel & Inverter Only?

    Actually VLRA batteries can be operated on their side, upside down, or in any position that you want. VRLA and agm are basically the same thing.
    Here is a site that describes them
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VRLA_battery
    Hope this helps
    Larry
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Real-Time, "Live" Portable Setup? Panel & Inverter Only?

    Interesting, I thought that there were also flooded cell VLRA batteries--but I guess I was wrong.

    For our usage in solar PV systems--Our host prefers AGM over Gel Batteries:

    Deep Cycle Battery FAQ
    Gelled electrolyte Gelled batteries, or "Gel Cells" contain acid that has been "gelled" by the addition of Silica Gel, turning the acid into a solid mass that looks like gooey Jell-O. The advantage of these batteries is that it is impossible to spill acid even if they are broken. However, there are several disadvantages. One is that they must be charged at a slower rate (C/20) to prevent excess gas from damaging the cells. They cannot be fast charged on a conventional automotive charger or they may be permanently damaged. This is not usually a problem with solar electric systems, but if an auxiliary generator or inverter bulk charger is used, current must be limited to the manufacturers specifications. Most better inverters commonly used in solar electric systems can be set to limit charging current to the batteries.

    Some other disadvantages of gel cells is that they must be charged at a lower voltage (2/10th's less) than flooded or AGM batteries. If overcharged, voids can develop in the gel which will never heal, causing a loss in battery capacity. In hot climates, water loss can be enough over 2-4 years to cause premature battery death. It is for this and other reasons that we no longer sell any of the gelled cells except for replacement use. The newer AGM (absorbed glass mat) batteries have all the advantages (and then some) of gelled, with none of the disadvantages.

    AGM, or Absorbed Glass Mat Batteries

    A newer type of sealed battery uses "Absorbed Glass Mats", or AGM between the plates. This is a very fine fiber Boron-Silicate glass mat. These type of batteries have all the advantages of gelled, but can take much more abuse.

    We sell the Concorde (and Lifeline, made by Concorde) AGM batteries. These are also called "starved electrolyte", as the mat is about 95% saturated rather than fully soaked. That also means that they will not leak acid even if broken.

    AGM batteries have several advantages over both gelled and flooded, at about the same cost as gelled:


    Since all the electrolyte (acid) is contained in the glass mats, they cannot spill, even if broken. This also means that since they are non-hazardous, the shipping costs are lower. In addition, since there is no liquid to freeze and expand, they are practically immune from freezing damage.

    Nearly all AGM batteries are "recombinant" - what that means is that the Oxygen and Hydrogen recombine INSIDE the battery. These use gas phase transfer of oxygen to the negative plates to recombine them back into water while charging and prevent the loss of water through electrolysis. The recombining is typically 99+% efficient, so almost no water is lost.
    The charging voltages are the same as for any standard battery - no need for any special adjustments or problems with incompatible chargers or charge controls. And, since the internal resistance is extremely low, there is almost no heating of the battery even under heavy charge and discharge currents. The Concorde (and most AGM) batteries have no charge or discharge current limits.

    AGM's have a very low self-discharge - from 1% to 3% per month is usual. This means that they can sit in storage for much longer periods without charging than standard batteries. The Concorde batteries can be almost fully recharged (95% or better) even after 30 days of being totally discharged.
    AGM's do not have any liquid to spill, and even under severe overcharge conditions hydrogen emission is far below the 4% max specified for aircraft and enclosed spaces. The plates in AGM's are tightly packed and rigidly mounted, and will withstand shock and vibration better than any standard battery.

    Even with all the advantages listed above, there is still a place for the standard flooded deep cycle battery. AGM's will cost 2 to 3 times as much as flooded batteries of the same capacity. In many installations, where the batteries are set in an area where you don't have to worry about fumes or leakage, a standard or industrial deep cycle is a better economic choice. AGM batteries main advantages are no maintenance, completely sealed against fumes, Hydrogen, or leakage, non-spilling even if they are broken, and can survive most freezes. Not everyone needs these features.
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Real-Time, "Live" Portable Setup? Panel & Inverter Only?

    Do not run VRLA or AGM's upside down or sideways; they aren't mechanically built for it. It's not all about just keeping acid in.

    And their are sealed FLA's which are VRLA and are not AGM's - look under the hood of your car.

    Feel free to disagree. It's not my money you're spending. :p
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Real-Time, "Live" Portable Setup? Panel & Inverter Only?

    I know there are at least some AGM's designed to mount on their sides. And some very "tall" AGM's which should be mounted on their sides (specialized large capacity AGM's) or the upper portion of the plates become starved for electrolyte.

    I am not sure that the typical maintenance free automotive batteries would qualify as VRLA as, I think, they are not "recombinant" batteries (do not have catalyst to recombine Hydrogen and Oxygen). For example, the plate grids often contain calcium, cadmium or strontium, to reduce gassing (which causes water loss) and self-discharge. This design is called a lead-calcium battery.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Real-Time, "Live" Portable Setup? Panel & Inverter Only?

    Of course if it is designed so that it can be run sideways that's another story. But in general terms they mostly aren't, so the risk is solely the user's.

    The Camel was a recombinant auto battery. Probably not made any more. And the valves are there in case something goes wrong - whether a flooded cell, AGM, or gel. In that sense all the sealed batteries are valve regulated - to the point where the valve blows, then they're toast.

    What they put inside to keep the plates wet and functioning ... ask the manufacturer. It wouldn't surprise me to find the cases of some packed with alkaline dry cells these days (the rampant product misrepresentation pandemic). :roll:
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Real-Time, "Live" Portable Setup? Panel & Inverter Only?
    bmet wrote: »
    That must be a pain having to pull the batteries to transition from vertical to horizontal for loading. What type of glass matt battery could one use so that the box could be tipped without resorting to removal? Could a sealed, valve-regulated battery operate on its side?

    Ha, you don't want to load it with the batteries in it, that's part of the "won't grow legs and walk away" security. I just hide the dolly, and it goes nowhere. (well, 4 guys and a pair of poles, could carry it away sedan chair style)

    AGM's are pretty pricey for a 4x a year gadget
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Real-Time, "Live" Portable Setup? Panel & Inverter Only?
    bmet wrote: »
    That must be a pain having to pull the batteries to transition from vertical to horizontal for loading. What type of glass matt battery could one use so that the box could be tipped without resorting to removal? Could a sealed, valve-regulated battery operate on its side?

    they do operate when not vertical. they don't leak anything out so why not?:confused::roll:
  • rabbit_39
    rabbit_39 Solar Expert Posts: 43
    Re: Real-Time, "Live" Portable Setup? Panel & Inverter Only?

    At least the OPzV batteries I've seen can and are designed to run on its side. The battery racks store them on the side.