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  • Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

    I need to collect the kwh generated by my inverter ( Xantrex 6048 ) and delivered to my sub-panel (Load/L1/L2) and main-panel (AC1/L1/L2). The overall generation number is to be provided to my power provider 1x per year to pay out my REC credits. (It is an "on your honour number" with a signature guarantee you will give accurate numbers.) My kwh meter outside runs forward and reverse, but is a "dumb" meter. It provides no other information.

    I'm contemplating using two EKM meters (Model EKM-25EDS-N v.2) to track this data. They seem to be a fairly reasonable price and the capabilty for reporting and tracking via their EKM Software and EKM iSerial to TCP/IP converter.

    Has anyone else used these from EKM? Any other recomendations?
    (I need kwh and reverse kwh at a minumum.)
    Attached Files
    Xantrex XW6048, XW-MPPT-60 SCC, Midnite E-Panel, 36 SunXtender PVX-890T @ 801ah, Briggs Elite 8kw, Midnite PV Combiner, 12 Sharp 224s / 2.6kw , Bogart Tri-Metric Meter, 2 EKM Meters (On AC1 and Load)

  • #2

    Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

    Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

    Does the 6048 not have total KWh reporting ?
    http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    http://tinyurl.com/LMR-BigLug
    http://tinyurl.com/LMR-NiFe

    Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph # 214505 ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV
    Powerfab poletop PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe battery | 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV | Midnight ePanel || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT

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    • #3

      Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

      Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

      Amazingly enough ... no it does not. You can only get the kwh produced per day/month/life from from the MPPT controller LCD. It shows total kwh produced, but not output on AC1/Load, reverse totals, etc. Xantrex sells a communications gateway seperately for about $500, but it uses a Yahoo! widget and from reviews here and elsewhere, it seems to have been panned pretty soundly. The EKMs meters look like they would be more standard to me also. A true kwh meter with lcd and tcp/ip capabilty for 120/240.

      Ballpark pricing is about $500 for two including 4 solid core CTs, 2 enclosures, and one iSerial TCP/IP converter.
      Last edited by dsp3930; February 9th, 2010, 18:39.
      Xantrex XW6048, XW-MPPT-60 SCC, Midnite E-Panel, 36 SunXtender PVX-890T @ 801ah, Briggs Elite 8kw, Midnite PV Combiner, 12 Sharp 224s / 2.6kw , Bogart Tri-Metric Meter, 2 EKM Meters (On AC1 and Load)

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      • #4

        Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

        Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

        Or just hook up a surplus Utility meter "backwards" -- it should log the power nicely. They are not very expensive and the Utility should be happy you are using a utility approved meter.

        -Bill
        20x BP 4175B panels (replacement) + Xantrex GT 3.3 inverter for 3kW Grid Tied system + Honda eu2000i Inverter/Generator for emergency backup.

        Comment


        • #5

          Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

          Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

          What? Does each utility co do thier meters. In WesternPa. we have First Energy whom put a dual meter that regesters the power generated and power used. They furnished the meter and do the meter reading. I don,t particularly like thier policy as they settle every month and you can,t build up any credit in the summer that you can get back in the winter. I do have a regular utility meter at my inverters to keep track of my use. I got my meter from a online solar sipply for about 35 dollars. Will your utility co. accept that? Solar Vic
          16 KC 158G & 3 KD185GX-LPU panels on Fronius IG PLUS 3.0-1 inverter and 14 SHARP NDU3A & 1 KD185GXU panel on FRONIUS IG-3000 inverter. All mounted on pole top racks. Retired and enjoying it!!

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          • #6

            Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

            Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

            I live in NW Ohio ... also with First Energy through Toledo Edison. They don't supply a new meter ... you fill out a few forms, they signoff that your setup is conformant to their requirements, you get an NEC code inspection, submit another agreement, and then your're on net metering. Then, thats pretty much it.

            For Toledo Edison (possible FE Ohio) net metering it is all carried over from month to month and then settled with a payment at the end of the year (if requested by the customer).

            I am looking at getting the EKM meters for the new First Energy REC credit program (possibly also in PA). Try looking on Google under "First Energy REC Program Pennsylvania". This year in Ohio, they are paying between over $300 per MegaWatt hour produced. (Adjusted yearly) You have to get PUCO certified for small generation and as part of that process, you have to be able to tell them the kwh you generated each year. (My house meter we have is only usefuly for net metering -- its an older dial meter.) For under a 6kw nameplate inverter capactity, you just have to update them with your total kwh generated each year from a kwh metering system you install (or already have as part of your inverter). They, then cut a check for the amt. 1x per year. This is the process as I have been explained to me by the FE REC program contact. We'll see once I get it all in place.

            What's the catch? You can only claim up the the amount of power you use in home each year as a REC credit. IE. If you use 9,000 kwh per year, then that is 9 REC credits. You can't produce 20,000, use only 10,000 and claim 20 REC credits. Also, the dollar amount listed above is only for Solar. Wind is supposedly about 1/10 of the credit.


            I could probably use a standard meter on my AC1 and Load lines between my inverter and panels. I have been considering that too.

            For the extra $ on the EKM type setup, I would get reporting capabilty to csv or email, graphical menus if desired, and additional metrics beyond just kwh. (Kind of like the Bogart TriMetric Battery meter but for the AC side.)
            Xantrex XW6048, XW-MPPT-60 SCC, Midnite E-Panel, 36 SunXtender PVX-890T @ 801ah, Briggs Elite 8kw, Midnite PV Combiner, 12 Sharp 224s / 2.6kw , Bogart Tri-Metric Meter, 2 EKM Meters (On AC1 and Load)

            Comment


            • #7

              Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

              Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

              I applyed to be net metered. Had to send First Energy all the plans and $100.00
              engineering fee. I got an email to procede and a meter person showed up a few days later and changed the meter before the electrical work was done. I already got the first bill. They said if I made more than I use it isn,t considered net metering. I think alternitive energy in my area hasn,t caught on yet and no one seems to know what they are doing. Inspector never saw a solar system , only 1 wind turbine. Electrician never did any. I am sure I know more than they did. Now that My inspection was passed I think I don,t want to do anything to cause another inspection. I called the representive 3 times from First Wnergy and he never returned my phone calls. Finally I got thru to a local superviser for the power co and he said they were done. No one from the power co ever came to look over my system. I think each state has different requirements for net metering. I am preety sure I won,t have a surplus. Solarvic
              16 KC 158G & 3 KD185GX-LPU panels on Fronius IG PLUS 3.0-1 inverter and 14 SHARP NDU3A & 1 KD185GXU panel on FRONIUS IG-3000 inverter. All mounted on pole top racks. Retired and enjoying it!!

              Comment


              • #8

                Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

                Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

                solarvic,
                read this if you haven't already,
                http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/i...A03R&re=1&ee=1
                i believe it states it is allowed to be cumulative to the end of the year.
                "Customer-generators are compensated for remaining NEG at the utility's "price-to-compare" at the end of the year." do not trust your utility to do right by you. here is the other pa areas you could brush up on,
                http://www.dsireusa.org/incentives/i...srp=1&state=PA
                also note that all of western pa does not have your utility as there are many others such as duquesne light, west penn power, allegheny power, and so on.

                i did not read the entire thread, but you can look up info for ohio or any other state at www.desireusa.org
                Last edited by niel; February 10th, 2010, 0:16.
                NIEL

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                • #9

                  Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

                  Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

                  Originally posted by dsp3930 View Post
                  I need to collect the kwh generated by my inverter ( Xantrex 6048 ) and delivered to my sub-panel (Load/L1/L2) and main-panel (AC1/L1/L2) ...

                  I'm contemplating using two EKM meters (Model EKM-25EDS-N v.2) to track this data. ...
                  I think you have several options:

                  1. Purchase of remanufactured kWh meters. I'm using these: http://www.hialeahmeter.com/ .

                  2. I looked at the EKM meters back when I didn't have a monitoring system. I thought they looked pretty good.

                  3. The Energy Detective (TED) is a pretty good self-contained neat and no fuss instrument, and, is compatible with Google's power monitoring capability making data available from remote locations.

                  4. I'm using WattNode AC power and kWh meters from Continental Controls. These provide bi-directional outputs for PV and Net Metering. See http://www.ccontrolsys.com/products/pulse_output.html . (You'll need some kind of pulse counting capability with this alternative. I'm using the Web Energy Logger - http://www.welserver.com/ ).

                  Hope this helps.

                  Best regards,

                  Bill
                  Energy reduction & monitoring
                  American Energy Efficiencies Inc. - Dallas, TX (http://www.americaneei.com
                  Example monitoring system: http://www.welserver.com/WEL0043/

                  Comment


                  • #10

                    Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

                    Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

                    so, what was your final solution and how does it is working so far?
                    We in PR are having a similar issue
                    the XW6048 is a common inverter in the Island because of the backup power, we have a lot of power failures from the utility

                    now days, there is an incentive from the government for solar installations
                    but in order to qualify for the incentive
                    the government must monitor the solar production from a web page (they like the sma sunnyweb option and think all manufactures have a similar solution)

                    for some reason, Xantrex don't have a solution for this

                    I was thinking on use TED, but, a XW have two outputs, AC1 and Loads
                    the actual or real production of the solar system is AC1 + Loads
                    b.ecologėcAll energía solar puerto rico

                    Comment


                    • #11

                      Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

                      Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

                      Originally posted by b. ecologėcAll View Post
                      so, what was your final solution and how does it is working so far?
                      We in PR are having a similar issue
                      the XW6048 is a common inverter in the Island because of the backup power, we have a lot of power failures from the utility

                      now days, there is an incentive from the government for solar installations
                      but in order to qualify for the incentive
                      the government must monitor the solar production from a web page (they like the sma sunnyweb option and think all manufactures have a similar solution)

                      for some reason, Xantrex don't have a solution for this

                      I was thinking on use TED, but, a XW have two outputs, AC1 and Loads
                      the actual or real production of the solar system is AC1 + Loads
                      TED can have up to 4 detection devices (CT/MTU) connected.
                      Sticking it to the power company one watt at a time!
                      60 Ningbo Electric 175 watt panels and 12 Canadian Solar 180 watt panels with 2 PVP 5200 Inverters

                      Comment


                      • #12

                        Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

                        Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

                        tks for your answer
                        does TED can show:
                        daily solar energy production
                        annual production
                        instead of "kw used this month", to say "kw produced this month", etc...

                        are there settings so the TED can sum both XW inverter ouputs and just show real output (loads + ac1)?
                        b.ecologėcAll energía solar puerto rico

                        Comment


                        • #13

                          Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

                          Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

                          Originally posted by b. ecologėcAll View Post
                          tks for your answer
                          does TED can show:
                          daily solar energy production
                          annual production
                          instead of "kw used this month", to say "kw produced this month", etc...

                          are there settings so the TED can sum both XW inverter ouputs and just show real output (loads + ac1)?
                          You can keep them separate, do a sum, do a difference, it is all in how you configure the sensor data in the host unit. The host unit is basicly an internet appliance. It doesn't do annual but month to month data is available for up to 2 years for each sensor. Mine is a 4 sensor system, 1 main house, 2 solar, 3 office/workshop building, 4 Chevy Volt chargers.
                          On mine the sensors 1, 3, 4 are loads and the sensor 2 is solar generation. 1+3 +4 are added for total load and sensor 2 is subtracted for net load.

                          Mine does hourly, daily production, daily records are kept for up to 2 weeks, hourly for 2 days, real time interday is available on the dash board. It can do a net calculation as well. It can handle TOU rates but some what crudely if $$$ are of interest.

                          Check the link in my signature to view it.
                          Sticking it to the power company one watt at a time!
                          60 Ningbo Electric 175 watt panels and 12 Canadian Solar 180 watt panels with 2 PVP 5200 Inverters

                          Comment


                          • #14

                            Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

                            Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

                            solar dave,

                            Just reviewed your TED readings. It seems you do not charge your Volts when the sun is shining. Is this because they are away from the charging units during daylight hours? I do know the Volts have a feature that you can program the charging time. Apparantly you do not use this feature.

                            So the analysis is-- what is your equivalent cost of a gallon of gasoline? (ie your cost of kWh production x 33kWh = cost of equivalent gallon of gasoline). Does it make sense in your case to burn $4.00 gas or to use excess kWh production during daylight hours?

                            Just curious.

                            dan





                            Originally posted by solar_dave View Post
                            You can keep them separate, do a sum, do a difference, it is all in how you configure the sensor data in the host unit. The host unit is basicly an internet appliance. It doesn't do annual but month to month data is available for up to 2 years for each sensor. Mine is a 4 sensor system, 1 main house, 2 solar, 3 office/workshop building, 4 Chevy Volt chargers.
                            On mine the sensors 1, 3, 4 are loads and the sensor 2 is solar generation. 1+3 +4 are added for total load and sensor 2 is subtracted for net load.

                            Mine does hourly, daily production, daily records are kept for up to 2 weeks, hourly for 2 days, real time interday is available on the dash board. It can do a net calculation as well. It can handle TOU rates but some what crudely if $$$ are of interest.

                            Check the link in my signature to view it.
                            17.28 kW Kyocera panels; 2 - 7.5 kW Fronius inverters; 10kW Generac; Nyle HW system; Steffes ETS system; Great Lakes RO

                            Comment


                            • #15

                              Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

                              Re: Sub-meter / KWH Metering for Utility Reporting

                              Originally posted by DanS26 View Post
                              solar dave,

                              Just reviewed your TED readings. It seems you do not charge your Volts when the sun is shining. Is this because they are away from the charging units during daylight hours? I do know the Volts have a feature that you can program the charging time. Apparantly you do not use this feature.

                              So the analysis is-- what is your equivalent cost of a gallon of gasoline? (ie your cost of kWh production x 33kWh = cost of equivalent gallon of gasoline). Does it make sense in your case to burn $4.00 gas or to use excess kWh production during daylight hours?

                              Just curious.

                              dan
                              We charge immediate just cause it is easy and convenient to have a fully charged car at any time. With our solar our total electric bill since Dec. 1st has been $38 for all our needs plus we have over 1500 kWh of on-peak in the bank for summer usage. Our off peak price is dirt cheap at $0.05 and we almost meet our needs using solar from early morning and weekends. Last month the generation costs for off peak was $7.26 and as days get longer it gets better. I know it sounds weird but next month I will push the wife to run loads only during on peak. We already do dish washer and swimming pool after the start of on peak times. I suspect we will hit some night time consumption this summer. It is really an issue with how APS does net metering, generation can only offset consumption within the TOU period.

                              The 2011 wife's volt has really never burned gas, under 2 gallons of dealer gas for 5500 miles since May 2011 (@ some ridiculous number mpg), my 2012 used 14 gallons on a road trip to Vegas for business in 3200 miles since Nov 30, 2011 (@200mpg now).

                              Nothing like sending minimal $$$ to OPEC and getting the electrons for FREE!

                              Actually the cost of a 40+ mile charge is virtually free and is 13.4 kWh. Even if I buy the electric off peak that is about $0.65 vs $4.00 for gas to go about 38 miles. Our current charge estimates are hitting 48 miles and we are actually getting about 50ish out of a charge with the temps in mid 80's.
                              Last edited by solar_dave; April 10th, 2012, 9:07. Reason: got the facts right.
                              Sticking it to the power company one watt at a time!
                              60 Ningbo Electric 175 watt panels and 12 Canadian Solar 180 watt panels with 2 PVP 5200 Inverters

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