Please help, Very confused

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  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused
    niel wrote: »
    that's a tough call, but is one you'll have to make as there are minor differences between them. for sure you'll want mppt controllers and that is plural with the wattage handling ability depending on the battery bank voltage and the output current rating of the controller x 80% due to nec rules.
    for example the flex-60 is rated 60a, but at 80% this is a max of 48a no matter what the output battery voltage is so this means at 12v each flex60 can handle 576w. at 24v it's 1152w and at 48v it's 2304w. designing for a 48v battery bank voltage results in smaller numbers of controllers needed and would mean smaller wires could be used over other systems lowering costs for wire and reducing voltage drop losses.

    BUT wouldnt that mean that I would have to change out the 12v inverter? (If I went with 24 or 48 v (battery) in other words if i take pos-neg all the way down that would make 24v but then the inverter would be wrong right?
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused

    I shall try to answer the connection questions.

    First of all, panels. The instructions you have were probably translated from the original Chinese by someone who doesn't speak it or English. :p This happens a lot and leads to confusion.

    Yours are approx. 7 Amps @ 17 Volts. If you connect them in parallel ( positive to positive, negative to negative) the Amperage goes up but the Voltage remains the same. You'd get 21 Amps @ 17 Volts. Your charge controller is rated for 30 Amps, so it would be fine with this. Connect them in series (positive to negative) and the Voltage goes up but the Amperage stays the same. You'd get 7 Amps @ 51 Volts, which is too much Voltage for your controller (maximum input of 25 Volts).

    An MPPT type controller is capable of 'down converting' higher panel Voltage to whatever system Voltage you use. You can put a string of series connected panels running up to, say, 150 Volts in and have it come out 12 Volts at the other end. The controller adjusts output for proper Voltage levels and comes up with as much current as it can out of whatever PV's you have and how much sun is on them. Just because such a controller has an output capacity of 60 Amps does not mean it will deliver 60 Amps; output is still dependent on input.

    Our host NAWS sells the FM60 for $540. http://store.solar-electric.com/oupofl60mpso.html Whether that's a good deal for you I can't say; I'm not you. :D

    Connecting batteries. You said "positive to negative to positive to negative". You have to be careful with terminology. That statement describes a complete short-circuited loop on two batteries that will fry something, probably you. The correct way of expressing it is just one positive to negative connection:

    (-) Battery 'A' (+)
    (-) Battery 'B' (+)

    Here the 'lone' (-) and (+) terminals are connected to the system.

    There's really no reason to abandon a 12 Volt system. They're good for up to around 1000 Watts continuous draw if designed and built properly. Chances are your loads are much smaller than this.

    I'd be more concerned about trying to add in this 'third panel' which is different from the other two. If the specs are more than 10% off the other two, there could be trouble. And you will need a separate fuse on each panel when hooking them all in parallel.

    Now what question have I forgotten to answer?
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused
    VanDeusen wrote: »
    Which is the best one to get for the money? Keeping in mind that I will be eventually haveing 35- 120 watt panels. Thanx

    4200Watts 280A @ 15V. What is your eventual system voltage ?

    150A @ 28V (24V battery bank)

    75A @ 56V (48V battery bank)
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused
    VanDeusen wrote: »
    my average usage per day (when the elec. co meter was running everything) is 28 kw per day. Now that the only thing on the electric company is 220v appliances and a outlet for the charger it is 7kw a day which would be 210kw per month. Our elec. co charges .11 per kw.

    I have to point out here that the production cost from battery-based solar over the lifespan of the equipment is about ten times that, so I hope you don't think you're saving money this way.
  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused
    ?


    OK, I think you are confused in all of this (wink)

    The batteries ARE running pos to pos neg to neg all the way down the 10 battery bank.

    the 2-120 watt panels have wires coming out the back and the ONLY way to connect them together is by putting pos to neg to controller and neg to pos to controller.

    The person I talked to from sunforce and UL SOLAR told me that I have the panels correct and that I can put a max of 3 on the 30 amp controller. You are saying that is wrong?

    if so then would I put EACH 120 watt panel to its OWN 30 amp controller while I wait for the fm60?
  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused
    mike90045 wrote: »
    4200Watts 280A @ 15V. What is your eventual system voltage ?

    150A @ 28V (24V battery bank)

    75A @ 56V (48V battery bank)

    NOT sure how to answer that other then I was trying to keep everything 12v system. Is that what you mean? And that reason for that is the wind generators and the panels as well as the inverter is 12v. Now with that said, if there is a way to make the batters 24-48-56v and still make the rest of the system work with that then I am open.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused
    VanDeusen wrote: »
    OK, I think you are confused in all of this (wink)

    I am often confused. It keeps me from going insane. :p
    The batteries ARE running pos to pos neg to neg all the way down the 10 battery bank.

    Yes, I understand. You misspoke about connecting two T105's and that's what I was trying to clarify.
    the 2-120 watt panels have wires coming out the back and the ONLY way to connect them together is by putting pos to neg to controller and neg to pos to controller.

    The person I talked to from sunforce and UL SOLAR told me that I have the panels correct and that I can put a max of 3 on the 30 amp controller. You are saying that is wrong?

    It is wrong if the controller can only accept 25 Volts maximum input. I don't think UL SOLAR is aware of that limitation.
    if so then would I put EACH 120 watt panel to its OWN 30 amp controller while I wait for the fm60?

    Either wire them in parallel (21 Amps @ 17 Volts) or get the MPPT controller. First thing you should do is check and see if the existing controller is still functioning. Take a look at some of the other charge controllers available to see what best suits your needs and is able to handle both the current and the Voltage. Good place to start is NAWS: http://store.solar-electric.com/chco.html
  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused
    I have to point out here that the production cost from battery-based solar over the lifespan of the equipment is about ten times that, so I hope you don't think you're saving money this way.

    If I spend a million to save giving the local thiesves ONE PENNY then its WELL WORTH IT. LOL I hate our local utility company MORE then the X-Wife.. LOL.
  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused


    Either wire them in parallel (21 Amps @ 17 Volts) or get the MPPT controller. First thing you should do is check and see if the existing controller is still functioning. Take a look at some of the other charge controllers available to see what best suits your needs and is able to handle both the current and the Voltage. Good place to start is NAWS: http://store.solar-electric.com/chco.html



    so in otherwords go to the 2 120 watt panels and run them pos to pos neg to neg then to the controller? What about the 3rd? Put them all that way?

    Remember I have 2 right now and one on the way. thanx
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused
    VanDeusen wrote: »
    NOT sure how to answer that other then I was trying to keep everything 12v system. Is that what you mean? And that reason for that is the wind generators and the panels as well as the inverter is 12v. Now with that said, if there is a way to make the batters 24-48-56v and still make the rest of the system work with that then I am open.

    This is why systems should be designed around loads to begin with.
    Do you know us crazy off-gridders try to get our usage below 1000 Watt/hrs per day? Many succeed too. Mind you, we don't have AC to feed but there's some options in that department as well.

    If no single load exceeds 2000 Watts you can go with multiple inverters running off a central 12 Volt bank. Wouldn't be my first design choice, but it can be done.
  • audredger
    audredger Solar Expert Posts: 272 ✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused

    There is another way to connect the panels... you are just missing the parts http://store.solar-electric.com/30fomc4so2ex.html . You take two of these cables, cut them in half, then connect the uncut end to the panel leads and connect the neg to neg and pos to pos. Then connect to your charge controller. That is a parallel connection..

    "The person I talked to from sunforce and UL SOLAR told me that I have the panels correct and that I can put a max of 3 on the 30 amp controller. You are saying that is wrong? "

    Three in parallel, not three in series!

    Future considerations: the higher the battery bank voltage, the more efficient and less expensive the system. Note: this is a generalization

    Example: http://store.solar-electric.com/oupofl60mpso.html can handle 720 watts @ 12v ; or 1440 watts @ 24v ; or 2880 watts @ 48v . So.. if you plan on having 4200 watts of panels then you would need; 6 60 amp controllers for a 12v system, or 3 60 amp controllers for a 24v system, but only 2 for a 48v system.

    Yes, a 24 or 48 v system would require a new inverter.
  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused
    This is why systems should be designed around loads to begin with.
    Do you know us crazy off-gridders try to get our usage below 1000 Watt/hrs per day? Many succeed too. Mind you, we don't have AC to feed but there's some options in that department as well.

    If no single load exceeds 2000 Watts you can go with multiple inverters running off a central 12 Volt bank. Wouldn't be my first design choice, but it can be done.

    There is NOTHING according to my kill-a-watt that says anything that high. The most I have in ONE thing would be about 300 watts. Heck, even the fridge says (while the compressor is on and running) 250 watts.

    Remember besides lights (energy saver) 28 watts each@ about 5 lights about 4 hours usage, the fridge @ 250 watts 24hr. usuage and the plasma tv @ 280 watts X 3 hrs usage and the surround sound @100 watts 3 hour usage. Outside of that once a week (ONE LOAD) of laundry @ 310 watts (approx. 1 hr) and the dishwasher (no heat cycle, one load a day) @ 180 watts approx. 30 minutes that is about the extend. When I walk thru the hallways they are on motion sensor so they turn on and off after about 30 seconds OH and 3 fire alarms hardwired in (i have no idea what that amounts too;

    That is the scope of things. For that again I have already in place

    2-60 watt solar kits (sunforce)

    2- 120 watt solar panels (UL SOLAR)

    1- 5000 watt modified sine inverter

    2- 400 watt wind generators (no idea what they put out as I am waiting for the inline amo meter)

    10 mix-matched batteries running between 75-115ah

    a 30amp LOWES bought standard household breaker box and 9 20amp breakers in it for the house.


    I am open???
  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused
    audredger wrote: »
    There is another way to connect the panels... you are just missing the parts http://store.solar-electric.com/30fomc4so2ex.html .

    that is EXACTUALLY what is hanging on the panels already when I get them delivered. According to ul solar I would conect the pos to neg. According to HERE pos to pos. It is raining right now so when I can I will put them the way you guys recommend.
  • audredger
    audredger Solar Expert Posts: 272 ✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused

    You keep mentioning the wing genertors.... I've ask before... perhaps I missed the answer..... how much power are the wind generators actually producing?

    Yes there is a way to step up the voltage from the wind generators from 12v to 24 or 48v, if they warrant it.
  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused
    audredger wrote: »
    Future considerations: the higher the battery bank voltage, the more efficient and less expensive the system. Note: this is a generalization


    SO, how do I determine that battery bank voltage? Do you mean when I check my battereis and they say (while the inverter is on and power is being supplied) 12.2v?
  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused
    audredger wrote: »
    You keep mentioning the wing genertors.... I've ask before... perhaps I missed the answer..... how much power are the wind generators actually producing?

    Yes there is a way to step up the voltage from the wind generators from 12v to 24 or 48v, if they warrant it.

    not promoting ANYTHING here is the link to the actual wind generator that I bought. These are 400 watt generators. I do not know what they are producing as I do NOT have the amp meter yet. I do know that they provide something as when I touch its wire to the battery (while its spinning) I do get a arch, (spark) like I would if I tried that with the battery charger.

    http://www.amazon.com/Sunforce-44444-12-Volt-400-Watt-Generator/dp/B000C1Z2VE/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=automotive&qid=1269187934&sr=8-1

    Product Features
    Uses wind to generate power and run your appliances and electronics
    Constructed from lightweight, weatherproof cast aluminum
    Fully integrated regulator that automatically shuts down when the batteries are completely charged
    Maximum power up to 400 watts or 27 Amps
    Measures 15 x 9 x 27 inches (WxHxD)


    Product Description
    The Sunforce 44444 400 Watt Wind Generator uses wind to generate power and run your appliances and electronics. Constructed from lightweight, weatherproof cast aluminum, this generator is also a great choice for powering pumps or charging batteries for large power demands. With a maximum power up to 400 watts or 27 amps, this device features a fully integrated regulator that automatically shuts down when the batteries are completely charged. The 44444 is virtually maintenance free with only two moving parts, and the carbon fiber composite blades ensure low wind noise while the patented high wind over speed technology guarantees a smooth, clean charge. Assembly is required, but this generator installs easily and mounts to any sturdy pole, building, or the Sunforce 44455 Wind Generator 30-Foot Tower Kit. The 44444 uses a 12-volt battery (not included) and measures 15 x 9 x 27 inches (WxHxD).
  • audredger
    audredger Solar Expert Posts: 272 ✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused

    It has to do with how you wire them... Do Not change them now!

    a 24v system with 12v batteries: +12v- -> +12v - Series 12+12=24
    a 48v system with 12v batteries: +12v- -> +12v- ->+12v- -> +12v- Series 12+12+12+12=48

    a 24v system with 6v batteries: +6- +6- +6- +6- Series 6+6+6+6=24

    a 48v system with 6v batteries +6- +6- +6- +6- +6- +6- +6- +6- Series 8*6=48
  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused
    audredger wrote: »
    It has to do with how you wire them... Do Not change them now!

    a 24v system with 12v batteries: +12v- -> +12v - Series 12+12=24
    a 48v system with 12v batteries: +12v- -> +12v- ->+12v- -> +12v- Series 12+12+12+12=48

    a 24v system with 6v batteries: +6- +6- +6- +6- Series 6+6+6+6=24

    a 48v system with 6v batteries +6- +6- +6- +6- +6- +6- +6- +6- Series 8*6=48

    NOW IN MORE confused....LOL happens alot my wife says....

    Dont change them now? why not? they only been that way since yesterday afternoon when the 2nd 120 came in.
  • audredger
    audredger Solar Expert Posts: 272 ✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused

    It will be both interesting and necessary to know how much they produce in the designing of your system. Glad to hear that an amp meter is on it's way.
  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused
    audredger wrote: »
    It will be both interesting and necessary to know how much they produce in the designing of your system. Glad to hear that an amp meter is on it's way.

    Yea I cant wait either. so should I put the pos to pos and neg to neg connecting the panels or leave it alone as you I believe suggusted and why>? thanx
  • audredger
    audredger Solar Expert Posts: 272 ✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused

    Don't change now because..... Your inverter & battery charger is 12v.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused
    VanDeusen wrote: »
    There is NOTHING according to my kill-a-watt that says anything that high. The most I have in ONE thing would be about 300 watts. Heck, even the fridge says (while the compressor is on and running) 250 watts.

    This is good, but it's the maximum cumulative load that makes the difference: all things on one circuit added together. It probably still doesn't exceed 1000 Watts!
    The thing you have to watch out for are the invisible loads that won't show up on a Kill-A-Watt: the start-up surges on AC motors are brief but significant. And if your 'frige is frost-free (like mine) it'll eat 500 Watts in defrost mode followed by a 'heavy' compressor cycling to re-cool the refrigerant. But it can be done! :D

    That is the scope of things. For that again I have already in place

    2-60 watt solar kits (sunforce)

    2- 120 watt solar panels (UL SOLAR)

    1- 5000 watt modified sine inverter

    2- 400 watt wind generators (no idea what they put out as I am waiting for the inline amo meter)

    10 mix-matched batteries running between 75-115ah

    a 30amp LOWES bought standard household breaker box and 9 20amp breakers in it for the house.


    I am open???

    I'd lose the MSW inverter. AC induction motors as used in refrigerators et cetera do not like them; it shortens motor life. That said, maybe it's time to think about going up a notch to the true sine wave and higher system Voltage? BTW, "system Voltage" is what audredger means by "battery bank voltage". It is a nominal rating of Voltage rather than a specific reading from batteries. As in: 12V system, 24V system, 48V system. The higher the system Voltage the lower the DC current draw for any given output Wattage: 1200 Watts AC on a 24 Volt system draws roughly 1/2 the DC current it would on a 12 Volt system. This makes handling the DC current easier, as higher currents need thicker wires and produce more heat.
  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused

    AHH got it. OK so you dont (nor does my fridge) like the modified sine. If I am using a 5000 watt modified sine inverter then what would I use if I was to replace it with a pure sine inverter (which is prob. what you want me to get) I thought there was a difference IE: 5000 watt modified= 2500 watt pure sine..... does that sound about correct? and if so then am I looking for a 2500 pure? or for what I use, (dont forget the kitchen factor) what would be the inverter you would get or did get?
  • audredger
    audredger Solar Expert Posts: 272 ✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused

    I second coots recommendation on a full sine wave inverter... motors last longer and draw less current. Electronics prefer full sine wave too.

    I recomend re-wireing the panels based upon your charge controller. Your controller is not designed to handle anything over 25v.... you have 34v going to it now!

    with your controler; The harvest will be greater at 17v It has to do with how it was designed..
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused
    VanDeusen wrote: »
    AHH got it. OK so you dont (nor does my fridge) like the modified sine. If I am using a 5000 watt modified sine inverter then what would I use if I was to replace it with a pure sine inverter (which is prob. what you want me to get) I thought there was a difference IE: 5000 watt modified= 2500 watt pure sine..... does that sound about correct? and if so then am I looking for a 2500 pure? or for what I use, (dont forget the kitchen factor) what would be the inverter you would get or did get?

    The difference between "modified sine wave" (a misnomer; it's actually Multiple Square Wave but no one remembers or uses that term) and "true (or pure) sine wave" is the shape of the waveform, not the Watt equivalent. That's the Power Factor difference (where we get in to Volt/Amps vs. Watts - leave it alone for now).

    MSW simulates a true sine wave by using multiple square wave steps. How many makes a difference in how close the output approximates a sine wave. Some inverters use less, others more. More is better. I'll just skip the explanation as to why sine wave is better for motors; you don't need that headache. Just remember that it is, and for other things as well. Certain battery chargers don't like MSW, for instance. In simplest terms, MSW is "seen" by some devices as low Voltage. Tends to trip UPS devices a lot, in fact.

    Does your refrigerator by any chance 'rattle' when it runs on the inverter? Especially when it first starts?

    I think you should start looking at where you intend to go with this system, beginning with your total load potential (including kitchen use). Wipe out any sort of electric heating element if you can. Watch out for hidden ones: dishwashers use a 'calrod' unit both to heat for drying (which can usually be shut off) and to make certain the wash water stays above 140 F for sanitary reasons.

    Remember: loads determine both the size of the inverter and the size of the battery bank. The solar panels and charge controller are a function of how much power you need to supply for recharging those batteries.

    I wouldn't count on the wind generators if I were you; they are notoriously unreliable under-performers. Since you've already got them, look at them as a windy day bonus rather than relying on them for significant source of energy.
  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused

    100% correct! The wind genarators are just a added bonus which is why I stated several times that I was not going to address those. If they produce great, if they dont....LESSON LEARNED....LOL well not really laughing since there a 1000.00 for the pair.. Guess I should have said TEARS, TEARS.....LOL
  • audredger
    audredger Solar Expert Posts: 272 ✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused

    Once again we come back to: What are your needs.... what is you peak need....

    It would be best to leave the Kill-O Watt meter plugged into each device for at least a week and measure. Better measurements are acquired over longer lengths of time...


    Recommendation on inverters are like asking for recommendations on Ford vs Chevy vs Dodge.... there are some we all dislike like Yugo's..

    I have a Xantrex 4024 plus inverter. We (mother & I) use 1.6kWh a day on average 1.8kWh on "bad" days. I want two Outback VFX3648's

    Before you spend any more money; lets get what you have working as good as we can.... then we can work to design a good system! Best to design from the bottom up than from the middle going both ways. Bottom is what are your needs?
  • VanDeusen
    VanDeusen Solar Expert Posts: 129 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused

    here is a link to where I am going to store all the pics as i cant seem to upload them. ASK for as many as anyone needs to see so that I can get this working right please. If you want a closeup thats ok too. I will upload as many as anyone needs of whatever they need to see to get this working right. Thanx guys and gal's for all the help. I should mention that although I hve the general idea, im not the smartest in the cookie jar so it would help ME if I did ONE step at a time in correcting this.


    Here is the links

    http://img180.imageshack.us/g/controller002.jpg/
  • audredger
    audredger Solar Expert Posts: 272 ✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused

    No offense man but, that battery bank is a mess. What are all the alligator clamps for? I think I see two small cables instead of one large running between batteries. The cables between battery's need to be as short and large as possible.

    What gage wire are you using from your panels to the charge controller and low long are they? How big is the wire from the controller to the batteries?
  • audredger
    audredger Solar Expert Posts: 272 ✭✭
    Re: Please help, Very confused

    Just noticed... the charge controller is going to the middle of the bank not the ends?!