8-D Batterys?

packdaddy
packdaddy Solar Expert Posts: 27
I have just purchased my first solar system...two sets of Harbor Freight's 45 watt panels kit (90 watt total) and an 8-D Battery from Sam's Club ($400 in panel kits and $125 for battery).

I have seen 8-D batteries listed on charts as holding up to 255 AH but I have not heard of anyone using them.

Are 8-Ds good? if so why don't we hear of more folks using them. Especially for beginners like myself.
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Comments

  • audredger
    audredger Solar Expert Posts: 272 ✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    Well, an 8-D is a starting battery, you realy wanted a deep cycle. $125 wasen't a bad price though. An l-16 around here is $300+ but 370ah and you would need 2 for 12v.
  • packdaddy
    packdaddy Solar Expert Posts: 27
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    I was told 8-D batteries are Deep cycle. Are they Not?
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    I read audredger response, I think 8D come in 3 different types!

    A flooded lead calcium battery (starting battery for trucks)

    A SLA sealed lead acid battery that is also designed for starting at the loss of extended life.

    And AGM designed for deep cycling.

    NAWS sells 8D size AGM Deka batteries designed for deep cycle here;

    http://store.solar-electric.com/de8a200ampho.html

    NAWS also has some GOOD battery info here;

    http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm

    It may be that you found a good deal, are your batteries sealed? Do you have a model #? Heck, I'd becurious to find out what you've got!
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    8D is just a case size, no promise of what the contents are, just like group 24, 27....
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    8-d refers to the battery capacity size. although it would be unusual to have an 8-d starting battery, i wouldn't say they don't exist.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    I'm familiar with them as semi truck batteries, that said, niel is closer to the truth, I read up a bit and Rolls makes a flooded deep cycle 8D battery, So take my previous post with a grain of salt (and I'll have a shot of vinegar and wash out my mouth...lol)
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • packdaddy
    packdaddy Solar Expert Posts: 27
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    This one is sold as a Commercial battery and only cranking specs are given. It is flooded. But things I have read says they are also deep cycle.

    It is made by interstate battery
    Part number: PF8D
    1400 CC Amps
    400 reserve
  • audredger
    audredger Solar Expert Posts: 272 ✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    I stand corrected. Never knew you could get an 8-D deep cycle. Once again I have proved it! I don't know everything. Now, that's not to say I don't somethings? LOL
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?
    packdaddy wrote: »
    This one is sold as a Commercial battery and only cranking specs are given. It is flooded. But things I have read says they are also deep cycle.

    It is made by interstate battery
    Part number: PF8D
    1400 CC Amps
    400 reserve

    If it has cranking amps, it's NOT deep cycle. Might get a year of deep cycle use out of it, and nothing like 5 years.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Slappy
    Slappy Solar Expert Posts: 251 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?
    packdaddy wrote: »
    I was told 8-D batteries are Deep cycle. Are they Not?
    yes they are. I have 4 of these and love them... http://store.solar-electric.com/pvx-12255.html But im sure that their is other types of 8-d batts some where?
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    8-d is a battery size and does not indicate if it is deep cycle or starting battery as both can be in this size. it is true of 4-d as well.
    packdaddy-that is a starting battery.
    slappy-that concorde agm is without a doubt deep cycle and they carry many sizes.
    here are some,
    http://store.solar-electric.com/cosuagmba.html
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    PackDaddy...

    I looked around on Interstates POS website.

    They do make a 8D battery that is deep cycle, specs are here, 3 group from bottom, last in group;

    http://www.interstatebatteries.com/cs_eStore/content/product_info/indust_f.asp

    They don't mention the CCA only the reserve capacity. I think yours is likely a 'starting' type battery like the one here, with the same CCA specs;

    http://www.interstatebatteries.com/cs_eStore/Products/RT/PID-8D-MHD(Commercial).aspx?dsNavigation=N%7e26-4284636174&Title=Workaholic+-+1400+CCA

    The reserve capacity stated on your battery is likely the minutes at 25 amp drain, 400/60 for 6.6 hours or @ 165 AMp Hours at a 6C rate which is likely around 200 AmpHours at a C 20 rate.

    I would guess this is a starting battery due to the high CCA rating, designed for starting heavy machines. If Sams will allow you, I think you would be better served with 2 - 6volt Golf Cart batteries, which are designed for deep discharge rather than giving a lot of energy at once...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    notice on interstate's definitions that they define a deep cycle battery as,

    " A battery that is designed to withstand repetitive discharges to a 20% depth of discharge or more and to continue providing its rated capacity after hundreds of cycles. Deep-cycle batteries are often used in marine/RV and industrial applications."
    from http://www.batteries-faq.com/activekb/glossary.php

    that is somewhat forgiving of a definition as some good starter batteries may fit into that category. the definition can also vary somewhat by different manufacturers. there isn't any defining point between the 2 and so there are tweeners that any manufacturer will slide into the better category. several hundred cycles at 20% dod won't last long in our applications.
  • Windsun
    Windsun Solar Expert Posts: 1,164 ✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    Here is a list of the most common battery sizes. Many are used in special purposes, such as industrial http://www.rtpnet.org/teaa/bcigroup.html
  • packdaddy
    packdaddy Solar Expert Posts: 27
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    OK, it sounds like this is an area that has had very little experimentation. I will keep this battery and see how long it last. If you guys are right then It should be good for at least a year.

    I am also a skeptic when it comes to marketing versus production. On the business side it makes since to develop one product that can be marketed in several ways. all they have to do is just change the labels to only show the specs they want to market. It sounds like this is a good candidate for just such a theory.
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?
    packdaddy wrote: »
    OK, it sounds like this is an area that has had very little experimentation. I will keep this battery and see how long it last. If you guys are right then It should be good for at least a year.

    I am also a skeptic when it comes to marketing versus production. On the business side it makes since to develop one product that can be marketed in several ways. all they have to do is just change the labels to only show the specs they want to market. It sounds like this is a good candidate for just such a theory.

    Actually it's had lots of experimentation, and discussion.

    Here's the brief summary:
    1). Automotive-type batteries don't last long in a renewable energy application.
    2). Hybrid "Marine-RV" batteries fair a bit better.
    3). True Deep Cycle batteries are the best choice, regardless of what case size/configuration you choose.

    And the main problem with using non Deep Cycle is that the others aren't designed for long time discharging.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    I'd think if your close to the Sams, it would be worth checking and seeing if they will exchange the battery, I doubt that 6 volt deepcycle batteries (golfcart batteries) would cost much more, I think they are around $73 each. Sams might allow for an exchange one a quick 'mistake' on batteries.

    I've gotten 5 years out of my Sams GC batteries.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    ok i was wrong on it being capacity size as it refers to physical dimensions, but one can expect a rough power level per cubic inch too with some minor variations for chemistry and other factors so in a round about way i could be correct.:roll:
  • packdaddy
    packdaddy Solar Expert Posts: 27
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    Sam's had the golf cart batteries for $67each. If I had known how widely used they were, I would have gotten them first. It's only a $9 difference. Now where did I put that receipt:confused:
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    FWIW, you've helped me as well, I thought battery prices might be heading down(lead has) and have babied my 5 year old GC batts and I might well be headed for a new set. You'll also need another battery exchange (might save you a trip:) )
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    8D is a physial size designation for a 12 V battery. It's available for SLI, deep-cycle, and hybrid applications. I use size 4D deep-cyle AGM's in my home RE system, and our friend Brock uses size 8D deep-cycle batteries in his system.

    See: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?t=15

    4D's and 8D's are good physical configurations for large-capacity VRLA (AGM and gel) batteries because they're not very tall for their rated capacity, and this helps minimize electrolyte stratification.

    Here are some examples of readily available size 8D deep-cycle batteries: HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
  • Kamala
    Kamala Solar Expert Posts: 452 ✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    The only problem that I have with "D" size batteries is their weight. A Trojan 8D-AGM 12V comes in at 167 lbs. I cannot lift that much weight by myself. I would need help. Which, on account of my personality, I cannot always rely upon. Said battery has a C20 rate of 230AH. I would need two such batteries to equal (actually surpassing) what I now have in my system.

    And that is: Four East Penn 8AGC2's. They are 6V and no C20 rate is given. Instead, manufacturer gives C100 @ 220 AH. I am calling this 200AH @ C20. Now to the weight issue. Each of the 8AGC2's weighs 68 lbs. I can lift that much.

    Now, a bit about energy and power. The combined weight of my batteries is 4*68=272 lbs, which I cannot lift. My body lacks the power (strength) to move that weight all at once. However, given enough time I have the endurance (energy) to do it over time. So I can move the same mass (one quarter at a time) through the same distance doing the same amount of work. But because I take more time, I use/need less power.

    How 'bout that! Somehow, this ties in with energy, power, time and above all, WORK. Which is what we are all trying to achieve or avoid.

    K
  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?
    Four East Penn 8AGC2's. They are 6V and no C20 rate is given. Instead, manufacturer gives C100 @ 220 AH.

    C/20 rating is 187 Ah. MK Battery is a division of East Penn. Here are the specs:

    http://www.mkbattery.com/images/8AGC2.pdf
    http://www.mkbattery.com/documents/8115MK_AGM_LG_v2_r5.pdf

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    kamala,
    "Now, a bit about energy and power. The combined weight of my batteries is 4*68=272 lbs, which I cannot lift. My body lacks the power (strength) to move that weight all at once. However, given enough time I have the endurance (energy) to do it over time. So I can move the same mass (one quarter at a time) through the same distance doing the same amount of work. But because I take more time, I use/need less power.

    How 'bout that! Somehow, this ties in with energy, power, time and above all, WORK. Which is what we are all trying to achieve or avoid."

    what do you call that Kamala Watt Hours (kwh)?:confused::p
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    Just a minute on "energy, power, time and Work"

    I'm a big guy, but I like to amaze my friends with simple "feats", We are humans (OK I've been called an Ape once or a doz times) Use your brain to over come lots of simple problems. A simple furniture dolly will hold 1000 lbs and allow an 60lb kid to move it on a smooth surface.

    A standard male can move lots of weight if they put their mind to it, dead lifting will just ruin your back, use a 2 wheel dolly with wide tires fully inflated, and a couple sheets of OSB or plywood to roll things to your door, after you move from one sheet to the next, move the plywood while the weight is on the other end, plsce it under the sheet holding the weight!

    If you have ever moved and you didn't have a 4 wheel dolly for furniture, buy one and help someone move! you will not believe you ever did with out one!

    LOOK OUT OLD STORIES COMING!!!

    When I was a kid (15-16 not driving on the road yet, but a big kid, I fought in the 16 yr olds in judo when I was 14 due to size) I watched a huge live oak being taken down, it was close to 4' across, they cut the end off almost 4 feet long to help make the pieces more managable. I thought that would sure be neat to have around, my dad said I could have it if I could put it in the back of the truck... Well it was round and on the ground, there was a little slope, I parked the truck down hill and could almost make the ramp onto the truck level, it took me most of an hour but I put that log in the back of the truck. The construction guys had just about quit work watching me and lending me boards for the ramp. Even clued me in that the reason I couldn't roll it across the 5 feet or so wasn't due to the angle it was because the 2x12's were warping. One of the guys screwed in a couple 2x4 on end to keep the boards from warping while I was holding back the weight at the end of the ramp. After I got it in my dad wouldn't try to drive off with it, it was only an F100 with a 6 cyl and it was squatted! I slid off the tail gate onto the end putting a nice wrap in the tailgate! Nothing any 220lb reasonably health person couldn't do!

    I once had a nice 750cc Honda SS, on a trip Memorial day weekend I had a front tire blow out while ridding up to Atlanta, I survived (surprise!)but was badly banged up, didn't even go to the ER since Cops were busy and arrived 2 hours later, but the bike was toast. So after bussing up to Atlanta (and falling asleep at Blind Willies with Coco Reese singing 10 feet away, things we do for women folk) I had a motorbike to pick up, my other vehicle was a VW van. So I took the seats out and threw a 4x4 in the back and went to the wreck lot and asked to pick it up. and since the front wheel and forks were pushed flat against the frame it all acted like a unit pretty much, I could slide the frame along the 4x4 and roll the rear wheel to get it close to the van then proped the 4x4 up with a cynder block and I managed to slide it into the side door of the VW(motors in the back of VW's) even got the door to close!

    3's the charm and I'm having too much fun recounting these tales...

    After deciding photojournalism was a pretty rough life I took up managing the back shop of a printing plant. One day the lead pressman challenged me to flip over a roll of 36" paper. I had seen this done before in another print shop, these rolls are huge very likely 800-1000 lbs, but since I had seen it done and not wanting to be out done...The trick is to get it rocking, it is actually a very solid cylinder and if you push up on it and try to feel for the slightest movement, once it's in motion just keep pushing on the up stock like a swing, if you ever get the chance likely they'll stop you as soon as you get it rocking an inch or so as it ruins the edges and creates lots of paper waste. This doesn't take a big guy the pressman said he'd do it, if I couldn't and he was a wirey 160lb guy. (Also the only person I've seen jump through and over and under web! now thats a tale, alas not mine, you'll have to ask a pressman as I couldn't even believe it watching it!)

    Sorry, NAWS will have to send me a bill for band width!
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • packdaddy
    packdaddy Solar Expert Posts: 27
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    Ok since I have y'alls attention... I exchanged the 8D for two GC batts. I have a 12v RV/Marine Deep Cycle only about 6mounths old and in good shape. Will it hurt to add this one 12v to the two 6v?

    FYI... I just pick up a Trace DR1512, 1500w inverter & Charger for $100 off Craig's list. Not perfect... but great for the $$$
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    Be careful that you don't pay too much money for old Trace / Xantrex SW and other products... They are good stuff and have been out for a decade or more--but time has moved on and many of the electronic parts are not made any more (by anyone, microprocessors, various memory chips, and other components).

    So--for much of that stuff--there is nobody servicing them anymore (factory or third party). And 10-15 years of service is a very good life for most power electronics.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    I wouldn't add the old battery (or a battery of a different size) to new batteries. They charge at different rates and the new (or best battery) is always drawn down by the weaker battery.

    As for the DR1512 thats a pretty good deal if it's up and running even with the limited future it is a Modified sine wave (MSW) but it's made for heavy continuous use. In fact the only real problem (given that it's working) is that it may be draw more current than a smaller inverter that's about closer to your needs. (not really knowing what your needs are...)

    I think MSW don't have as high of minimal wattage of sine wave inverters, easy to check, Trace is now Xantrex(and they inturn have been bought up by Schnieder or some such) Should be able to find specs on their site.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Kamala
    Kamala Solar Expert Posts: 452 ✭✭
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    I agree with Photowhit, try not to mix batteries. The GC batts that you got after xchang your 8Ds... are they flooded? or sealed or AGM?

    I would never mix "types" of batts. Too many problems with charging profiles. But, if you're learning/experimenting, we all have done such. And be assured, the loss will come. No pain-no gain.

    Try it, see what happens and report back.

    Good Luck!

    To crewzer... thanks for the 2nd link. I will start a new thread re: charge rates. OK might be old and covered before, but I'm only a year old! (on the forum)

    To PWhit.. yep used lots of simple machines to move mass (W&A, IP, S, and W) all my life. But none would have made the placement of batts into my RV easier. In fact, they would have made it more complicated. In my previous life as a wilderness canoeist, I have managed moving mass through distance, not unlike electrons through conductors.

    http://www.visi.com/~ch3dietz/dc3/diary/photos/1980_furnace_1.jpg

    That's a big slab of basalt being lifted off the shoreline to make a firebreak.

    BTW, those were great stories!

    K
  • packdaddy
    packdaddy Solar Expert Posts: 27
    Re: 8-D Batterys?

    They are flooded. I'm not ready to drop that kind of money just yet. That's the reason I also when with the used inverter and cheapest panels I could find.

    It is mainly for my small trailer when we go up to the NM Mountains in the summer (BTW... nice rig you got). But would like to be able to run my garage eventually.

    Currently using it to run: Garage door opener, hot water circulater, and lights. I haven't hooked to my power tools yet.