looking for a AC battery charger

lamplight
lamplight Solar Expert Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
Hi there

as many of you know i have some issues with a neighbors trree and chimney giving me a couple hours of shadow on my panels during the winter months. this is pretty well illustrated in my avatar ;) its very annoying this time of year where the leaves arent gone yet and the sun dips below the treeline. at least when the leaves do fall ill get a little more hazy output than the direct shade gives, but by then the day is shorter.. .sigh.

consequently i think i should be looking into an AC battery charger for my 6 T-105's for supplemental charging. I do have a little 10A model but its not a full featured one and the low /infrequent charge schedule ive been dealing with since 2004 over the winters is finally battering my batteries down (starting to take longer to get them charged).

Im looking for something that will do programmable charges for various battery types (im probably going to go AGMS for my next round) with EQ and enough amps to do EQs. is there anything that is affordable or that ios otherwise recommended? this will only be used a few times in winter so id really not want to spend a ton of $.

thanks!

Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger

    What is the AC source? If it is a gen set--you first need to match the charger's input requirements against the genset's output...

    Since you are not leaving the charger plugged in--you really don't need the "fancy" float stuff... So--you are looking for a charger that will provide as much load on your generator as possible--and get the power into the battery as fast as possible.

    What you don't want is a 6 kW genset running a 1kW charger with no other loads... The bigger gensets seem to use about the same amount of fuel at 50% load as at 25% load... The small Honda eu2000i (broken record time), scales fuel use down to 25% load pretty well.

    Xantrex has some units that have Power Factor Correction on the front end (generator friendly).

    I will leave it to other (like Icarus/Tony) that have small gensets and battery chargers as to specific experiences on what model/size charger works on their generator set.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger

    Consider the Xantrex Truecharge series. Available in both 20 and 40 amps, can also be had in 24 and 48 vdc I think. If you are off grid they run very efficiently on generator power. I know that they show up on e-bay fairly often. They are set up for 4 stage charging, bulk, absorb, float and eq, with ll the settings adjustable for battery type etc. Also has temp compensation. I run a 20 on a honda eu 1000, and it pulls that with ease. I have run a tc-40 on a 1500watt cheapie and it worked well as well

    I have also had good luck with the ~40amp Iota as well.

    Tony

    PS, Once again you are too fast for me Bill!
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger

    the xantrex truecharge 20+ and 40+ look good for agm types, but if you don't want the expense then use your 10a along with solar (at the same time) and that would speed up the bulk charge. you have to remember to shut off your charger, assuming it is the standard auto type, but if your 10a charger is a regulated quality charger then you could leave it on.
    edit to add: yikes there was only the op when i started my reply. i think i'm getting slower.:cry:
  • lamplight
    lamplight Solar Expert Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger

    OOPS, sorry didnt think to mention I do NOT have a generator, im looking for something that will plugin to standard grid 110/120v AC and output 12v charging stages for the battery bank. yes mostly looking for good bulk charging and eq ability it wont stay on for floats.

    my little 10a model only will go up to 13.2 so i can only use it manually to assist the solar in the morning. if i turn it on when the batts are already above 13v it wont even turn on so its definitely not what i need.
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger

    ok. interesting that you have a 10a float charger as that's about all that's good for besides the morning jump. is this a power supply that you have for they are usually fixed at like 13+ volts or is it meant to be a battery charger? make/model?
  • lamplight
    lamplight Solar Expert Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger

    its just something thats made for your lawn mower battery i think, it bulk charges and then holds at 13.2. its got a little amp meter and ive never seeon it put out more than 8amps. forget the make and its down in the cellar.
  • Brock
    Brock Solar Expert Posts: 639 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger

    How many amps are you thinking of? Or I should say how many amps are in your current bank and potential future bank? I am assuming you will stick with 12v?

    I would suggest iota chargers, I just really like them but I have heard great things about the Truecharge as well and have used them in marine applications in the past.

    What inverter do you use on that system? Can you move it? I am just thinking if you had no power for a week or more could you pull that inverter and connect it to your idling car and connect your new charger up to it to recharge your 12v bank from a car. Then move the inverter back and use it as you normally would. This would suggest sizing the charger ¾ the size of the current inverter you have.
    3kw solar PV, 4 LiFePO4 100a, xw 6048, Honda eu2000i, iota DLS-54-13, Tesla 3, Leaf, Volt, 4 ton horizontal geothermal, grid tied - Green Bay, WI
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger
    lamplight wrote: »
    plug in to standard grid 110/120v AC and output 12v charging stages for the battery bank. yes mostly looking for good bulk charging and eq ability it wont stay on for floats.

    My suggestion:

    Cheap 40A charger - look at Pep Boys for the ~$110 Vector/BlackDecker 4/20/40A charger 1093D. Has selection for deep cycle, and it's a switchmode type of supply, so I think it's new enough to have a good power factor. (700W @ 40A setting)

    http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00009RB0T/ Some say the voltage regulation is not good. Others complain the battery clips break. Others say get a real charger. This is just my suggestion.

    Also has equalize and desulphate settings too, truly shuts down with "FULL" reading on display, and fan idles back when done, so it won't boil cells dry.
    No battery temperature adjustment or sensor, but it's a ~$110 unit, and will pump 40A safely into a pair of batteries.

    And you can do your car with it too.
    Because of the power on battery selection, you cannot hook it to a timer, and have it fire up 7am daily. you have to punch buttons on it for each power up. Also, if battery is below 9V, it will not power up.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • lamplight
    lamplight Solar Expert Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger

    Thats a very cool idea i never thought of. yes ill stay 12v too many things running direct off the 12v in addition to the ac stuff (office/pellet stove) on the inverter. its only a 600w inverter but that should handle the 30/40 amps on the charger Mike suggested. hopefuly ill never have to do that hookngup to a car though.

    Mikes suggestion looks ideal (although i gotta review the specs more to see if it'll work with agms later which i understand use less current for charging), i just need some bulk charging assistance and then ill let the mx60 handle the rest fr the better charging stages and EQ.

    Brock wrote: »
    thinking if you had no power for a week or more could you pull that inverter and connect it to your idling car and connect your new charger up to it to recharge your 12v bank from a car. Then move the inverter back and use it as you normally would. This would suggest sizing the charger ¾ the size of the current inverter you have.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger

    The Vector is a 2/10/20/40 A charger, selectable at boot-up. You can also select battery type. (Gel is listed) If you are just going to "bulk" charge, this won't matter, AGM's can take a pretty stiff charge rate, but if you are going off an inverter in your car, you may want to stay <20A unless you wire inverter directly to the battery.

    Manual:
    http://www.battery-rechargeable-charger.com/vector-car-battery/vector-car-battery-owner-manual-VEC093.pdf
    excerpt:
    It is intended for charging only 12 volt lead-acid batteries -
    maintenance free, conventional automotive, marine deep cycle and gel - that are usually used in cars,
    trucks, farm equipment, boats, RVs and SUVs, lawn mowers and garden tractors, motorcycles, personal
    watercraft, snowmobiles, ATVs, trucks and various commercial applications.
    Vector Smart Chargers are microprocessor-based and have a charge curve that has three stages. (See
    Figure 2). Stage One is essentially a constant current charge. This continues until the connected battery
    is about 85 percent charged. When Stage One ends, the charger briefly sounds a tone (beep) to
    indicate a change to Stage Two, the Absorption Phase. This stage is essentially a constant voltage phase
    and supplies approximately 10 percent of the charge. At the end of Stage Two, the charger changes
    output to Stage Three. Stage Three continues and turns OFF when the battery reaches full charge. This
    charger has a CHARGING COMPLETE LED and the digital display shows FUL when the battery is fully
    charged.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Brock
    Brock Solar Expert Posts: 639 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger

    I have a couple of vector or black & decker chargers (same). All of them come on to the low charge rate if you just plug them in while connected to a battery. I have 5 of the 2, 4, 6 amp chargers to charge my electric bike (five 12v 30 amp lead acid’s) so each battery gets it's own attention. The chargers range from 14.7 to 15.1 when they say they are done. Which isn't bad for a regular lead acid. I just change the order up once in a while so one battery isn't pushed as much. I typically have them on a timer that just turns the 5 of them on and after two minutes they start to do their thing at the 2 amp level, works fine, but in a pinch I can bump them up to the 6 amp level. The charger that came with the bike charges 70v at 6 amps, but makes any radio / tv within 250 feet go crazy.

    I also have a 2,6,10 and a larger 2,10,30. It seems the larger ones are closer in their end voltage, but that could just be luck of the draw and as Mike noted my largest one has all kinds of setting on it, fortunately the stock on works fine. The bigger chargers I have are the 12v 55 amp iota's and the 54v 15 amp iota, again I think the iota or trucharge are a better charger, but honestly for the money it would be really hard to beat the vectors.

    All of these vector chargers work fine connected to a cheaper Xantrex mod sine 800w on a car battery, the iota’s don’t like the 800w inverter but will run off a 1200w inverter, but really like the 1800w inverter. They pull about 800-900w running.
    3kw solar PV, 4 LiFePO4 100a, xw 6048, Honda eu2000i, iota DLS-54-13, Tesla 3, Leaf, Volt, 4 ton horizontal geothermal, grid tied - Green Bay, WI
  • niel
    niel Solar Expert Posts: 10,300 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger

    although a charger like that may work ok, i would wonder what the voltage points are they set for absorb and float is. these voltages vary widely for differing batteries. if the voltage is too high or too low it could have a bad result for your batteries as one size does not fit all.
    i hesitate to say this, but a standard unregulated charger could supplement your needs. seeing it to be supplemental it can be 10-20 amps as it will add to what your pvs failed to provide due to less sun. this can be put on a timer to auto-shutoff (recommended) to prevent overcharging due to forgetting it's on and i recommend using it only when you are there to be sure in the event something goes wrong and you can do something about it. i say this because my old car battery charger had a failure that sent 120vac down the line popping my old sunsaver 10 into oblivion. this isn't good for anything else connected like the batteries or other 12v devices, but my presence limited damage to the controller and that cc is an option to put some regulation to a car battery charger limited, of course, to the controller's abilities. it may be good to fuse the cheap charger's output too. one last note is that you need to remember the possibility would exist that the batteries could be overcharged and this is another reason to be there while charging with an unregulated car battery charger. it is fine as long as it only is giving some of the bulk charge, but if the batteries enter the absorb stage your car battery charger doesn't know this and keeps force feeding your batteries.
  • lamplight
    lamplight Solar Expert Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger

    thanks everyone, i just grabbed a similar 10/20/30 vector off ebay that im looking forward to (for only $80!). i'll just use it monitored. the timer is a great idea too thanks. im afaraid my batts may be too far gone but we'll see what a couple good EQs can do first. too bad those agms are TWICE the cost. now that i have some water saver caps on i may just get t105s again, just not sure yet and furthermore not 100% positive i need new ones yet. ive had them since spring 04 and really abused them the 1st couple yrs so its half my fault.
  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger

    Just out of curiosity, how old are your t-105s? How many cycles to what depth of discharge?
    IMHO as you consider new batteries, look at these numbers and buy batteries accordingly. If you are consistently drawing them down to 50%, consider up sizing the bank to keep the draw down. (I prefer not to draw mine down more than 20%dod/80soc)

    It sounds like you haven't been routinely topping them up with outside charging. I suspect you will find that that your battery life is much better if you get the batteries back to 100% as soon as/often as possible.

    It would be an interesting exercise to see two systems side by side. The first would a bank sized to draw to 50%, the second to only draw 20%. Then calculate the total life cycle coast of batteries and fuel to keep them charged. If the batteries lasted twice as long in the latter example, but the fuel cost was equal to the difference, what would be the smarter usage?

    In my experience, I have kept a set of t-105's going ten years drawing 20% max. I have another set of l-16's going on 12 years. (I have had 3 failures out of six batteries with the l-16's. The first in year 9, the second in year 10 and the third in year 12).

    Tony
  • lamplight
    lamplight Solar Expert Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger

    Tony youre right, my issues are winter shading and ive been lazy on making sure theyre topped regularly through the dark months. i usually only let them get down to 12.4v under load (theyre always under approx 20w load, which is a bit too much in winter), lately they've been dipping to 12.1 12.0 and i know thats very BAD. Ive got 6 t105s and next time around i may get the equivalent of 8 as you say so i can stay up around 20/30% discharged ALL year not just in summer.
  • lamplight
    lamplight Solar Expert Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger

    Tony youve only got 210w of panels and that keeps 4 L16s charged?!?
    I Do NOT get that much year round sun!
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger

    Are you saying you HAVE AGM's now? You cannot (or maybe the mfg permits a short EQ) EQ sealed batteries.

    If you have flooded cells, the Vector/B&D 10/20/40 has a de-sulphate setting which may help to bring them back some. AGM is supposed to be somewhat resistant to sulphatation.

    Mike
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • icarus
    icarus Solar Expert Posts: 5,436 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger

    Lamplight,

    Couple of comments. My system has changed a bit since my info was listed. I now keep 4 t-105's on a string with 210 watts of panel.

    The other string of batteries is wired up for very occasional use in the summer, and is kept topped up with only 60 watts. When it is in use I top it up with the generator as needed. This string consists of 2 old t-105s, and 2 old l-16s. ( know, I shouldn't mix strings, but the conglomeration were cast offs from other mismatched systems, and old to boot!)

    I was able to keep the 4 l-16's up with the 210 watts without much trouble. I have the advantage of having very good exposure, the panels face the lake, get sun from ~8 am until ~4 pm in the winter. Longer n the summer. Couple that with the reflection off of 6 months of ice and snow and cold panels, and 6 months of reflection off of the water, and we get pretty good harvest. On a cold day, I have seen 15 amps, with better than 20 edge of cloud, with an mppt controller.

    Our secret is not drawing them down much ever. seldom below 10% and almost never below 20% (dod)

    With your 20 watt 24/7 load you start at a huge disadvantage. That works out to ~ 40 amp hours/12vdc/day. That is the sum total of what we use in a day for all reasons; pumping water, lighting, computer charging, modem etc. So if I was in you situation, I would need to double my panels just to stay even.

    My suggestion going forward is that you look closely in sizing any new battery bank. If you can't keep it charged, or get it charged every few days to 100% with your panels, consider A, adding panels, B, adding batteries (but that makes it harder for your panels to keep up) and or, reducing your loads. I don't know if you have a battery monitor or not, but I highly recomend one, such as the Bogart Tri metric. It give a pretty good, day to day feel for what's going in vs what's coming out.

    Somewhere on this site, posted in the last few days was a charge on hog to estimate battery capacity under load. It was sort of a seat of the pants way of looking at ones battery system under load and getting a feel for how much was left in it.

    Finally, if you haven't read these, I suggest you do. If I am reading your post correctly, you are wishing to keep your batteries ~20-30%. I assume you mean max discharge rather than leaving them in that state. http://www.batteryfaq.org/ http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm#Lifespan%20of%20Batteries http://www.rpc.com.au/products/batteries/car-deepcycle/carfaq4.htm#charge

    Also consider a good hydrometer,

    Good luck,

    Tony
  • lamplight
    lamplight Solar Expert Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger

    no never said that.
    yea saw that about the sulphation fixer, we'll see how it goes.
    mike90045 wrote: »
    Are you saying you HAVE AGM's now? You cannot (or maybe the mfg permits a short EQ) EQ sealed batteries.

    If you have flooded cells, the Vector/B&D 10/20/40 has a de-sulphate setting which may help to bring them back some. AGM is supposed to be somewhat resistant to sulphatation.

    Mike
  • lamplight
    lamplight Solar Expert Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: looking for a AC battery charger

    thanks for the charger suggestions!