Solar more economical soon?

hunter44102 · July 2008

ABC News just showed that Electricity rates this year are going up 25 to 30% across many states. I think this will make Grid tied solar even more economical (unless panel prices go up).

I am in Ohio and so far I don't think our rates have jumped too much.

Also, does anyone know how to understand their electric bill? I have the following charges:

Customer Charge: $4.75
Delivery Charge: $33.45
Transition Charge: $17.93
General Related Component: $47.16
Transmission Related Component: $7.37
Total: 110.66

If I divide $110.66 by 804, it comes out to roughly 13.8c / KW hr.

But the previous month when my bill was $56, when I do the division, it was 11.4c / KW hr. Not sure if this means I had a rate increase, or there is some other factor?

(I would think if there are fixed costs, that the second month would have a lower rate)

n3qik · July 2008

Re: Solar more economical soon?

Yep, your rate went up. Here in Pa. rates are going up in 2010/2011 by 30%. Unfortunately, with the going green thing at a high, panel prices are going up also.

Telco · July 2008

Re: Solar more economical soon?

Customer Charge: $4.75 - This is what you pay to be our customer.

Delivery Charge: $33.45 - This is what you pay to rent our lines.

Transition Charge: $17.93 - This is probably the actual cost of the electricity

General Related Component: $47.16 - This is what you pay for ... stuff

Transmission Related Component: $7.37 - This is what you pay for ... other stuff

Total: 110.66 - This is what you pay.

icarus · July 2008

Re: Solar more economical soon?

Many utilities have tiered pricing, one price for the first X number of kwhs, Y for the next number of kwhs and so forth. Some have more than three or four rates. Add in time of day metering and it gets hard to figure your "cost per kwh" unless you look at your bill very carefully,

Tony

System2 · July 2008

Re: Solar more economical soon?

Hunter44102,

That's one seriously misleading bill. They really are trying to confuse customers. I decided to look at my bill more closely to see how it compares. I buy 100% wind power from a wind farm a few hundred miles north of here. I'm pleased with the simplicity of the bill. I don't mind paying a couple cents more for wind.

$39.12 Energy Charge - 230 kWh Total @ 17.01 cents/kWh
$1.09 Sales Tax
$0.49 Reimbursement for MGRT & PUCA

MGRT & PUCA are Texas state taxes
MGRT is Miscellaneous Gross Receipts Tax
PUCA is Public Utilities Commission Assessment

You should ask your electric provider to explain your bill. If you do, please post their answer here.

n3qik · July 2008

Re: Solar more economical soon?

My bill is laided out the same as hunter44102. On the back is a description of what each is.

The most important one, is the number in the box labeled "Pay This Amount By"

BB. · July 2008

Re: Solar more economical soon?

PG&E does a pretty good job of explaining--first they give you the "Rate". For example, the E-1 flat rate residential (note baseline ~ 300 kWhrs per month for customers with natural gas service):

Total Energy Rates ($ per kWh)
===============================
Baseline Usage $0.11559 (I)
101% - 130% of Baseline $0.13142 (I)
131% - 200% of Baseline $0.22580 (R)
201% - 300% of Baseline $0.31304 |
Over 300% of Baseline $0.35876 (R)
Total Minimum Charge Rate ($ per meter per day) $0.14784

Energy Rates by Component ($ per kWh)
===============================
Generation:
Baseline Usage $0.04714 (I)
101% - 130% of Baseline $0.05593 (I)
131% - 200% of Baseline $0.10834 (R)
201% - 300% of Baseline $0.15678 |
Over 300% of Baseline $0.18217 (R)

Distribution:**
Baseline Usage $0.03786 (I)
101% - 130% of Baseline $0.04490 |
131% - 200% of Baseline $0.08687 |
201% - 300% of Baseline $0.12567 |
Over 300% of Baseline $0.14600 (I)

Transmission* (all usage) $0.01034
Transmission Rate Adjustments* (all usage) ($0.00026)
Reliability Services* (all usage) ($0.000780)
Public Purpose Programs (all usage) $0.01138
Nuclear Decommissioning (all usage) $0.00027
Competition Transition Charges (all usage) $0.00332 (R)
Energy Cost Recovery Amount (all usage) $0.00318
Fixed Transition Amount (FTA)** (all usage) $0.00000
Rate Reduction Bond Memorandum Account (RRBMA)** (all usage) ($0.00163)
DWR Bond (all usage) $0.00477

Minimum Charge Rate by Component
$ per meter / per day $ per kWh
=================================
Distribution** $0.11935 (I) –
Transmission* – $0.01008
Reliability Services* $0.00000 –
Public Purpose Programs $0.00472 –
Nuclear Decommissioning $0.00011 –
Competition Transition Charges – $0.00332 (R)
Energy Cost Recovery Amount – $0.00318
FTA** – $0.00000
RRBMA** – ($0.00163)
DWR Bond – $0.00477
Generation*** Determined Residually

To a degree though--I would bet that the numbers as they are divided across rate tiers (between generation and distribution) is more or less just made up--to force conservation by subsidizing low usage and penalizing high usage.

In any case, you can see that generation is roughly 1/2 the costs and distribution+transportation is the other 1/2 of the costs... So, when businesses/heavy users get their bills, the generation is charge by kWhr but the distribution+transportation costs are based on the top 15 minutes of power usage (per month or year? if I recall correctly) to pay for the "size" of the wire/transformers required to support their maximum power usage.

And if they add solar/conserve, the best they can do is cut their bill in 1/2--unless they also cut down the "15 minimum maximum surge" power they use.

That was what killed a San Diego California school district (Wind-Sun thread with article and discussion here) when they added a whole bunch of Grid Tied solar and did not reduce their bill by very much at all--and when including interest on the solar installation--their bills went up.

-Bill

Hoonose · July 2008

Re: Solar more economical soon?

One should note, that if you could get off the grid, all sorts of additional bill charges, separate from the actual energy you use, will disappear. Including taxes. So to be competitive, personal, home or business solar only has to compete with the higher delivered energy price not the lower produced cost.
And being off the grid I wonder how .gov will figure out how to get a cut?

Hoonose · July 2008

Re: Solar more economical soon?

n3qik wrote: »

Yep, your rate went up. Here in Pa. rates are going up in 2010/2011 by 30%. Unfortunately, with the going green thing at a high, panel prices are going up also.

Our rates in AZ just went up 19% this month!
Making solar 19% closer to a reality.

BB. · July 2008

Re: Solar more economical soon?

Hoonose wrote: »

And being off the grid I wonder how .gov will figure out how to get a cut?

Many states (most?) charge you property tax for the solar installation--depending on your particular tax rate--your $30,000 3kW system can add hundreds of dollars to your yearly property tax bill.

California, so far, has exempted small solar from property taxes--but even our relatively low ~1.25% property tax rate * $30k is ~$370 a year in taxes.

My system, if 3.5 kW off grid , would cost an easy $40,000 to install--would generate (at most) about $420 worth of electric power (at $0.125 per kWhr for 3,354 kWhrs per year)--Property tax on $40k--costs you $500 worth of property taxes...

And, in our area, you have to pull a permit for electrical work--and all permits are forwarded to the county tax assessor's office.

With such "fine margins" for solar electric--the small stuff and rules can just kill you (see San Diego School District fiasco/link I posted earlier).

-Bill

mike95490 · July 2008

Re: Solar more economical soon?

Yep, I had to write a letter to the LA County assessor, with chapter and verse, to get them to remove the extra tax my electrical permit "qualified me for".

adas · July 2008

Re: Solar more economical soon?

BB. wrote: »

Many states (most?) charge you property tax for the solar installation--depending on your particular tax rate--your $30,000 3kW system can add hundreds of dollars to your yearly property tax bill.

California, so far, has exempted small solar from property taxes--but even our relatively low ~1.25% property tax rate * $30k is ~$370 a year in taxes.

My system, if 3.5 kW off grid , would cost an easy $40,000 to install--would generate (at most) about $420 worth of electric power (at $0.125 per kWhr for 3,354 kWhrs per year)--Property tax on $40k--costs you $500 worth of property taxes...

And, in our area, you have to pull a permit for electrical work--and all permits are forwarded to the county tax assessor's office.

With such "fine margins" for solar electric--the small stuff and rules can just kill you (see San Diego School District fiasco/link I posted earlier).

-Bill

Aloha, going solar sure is not a money saver over the electric company!
1: But to me the pride and bragging rights of being Green,
2: being on the cutting edge of eventual technogy.
3: With getting most the the investment back in 3 yrs with tax credits, depreciation and elec savings
4: We are on the verge of being listed as LEED Platinum, so local contracts are coming our way in our business.

But to quote a person that is impressed with my system and off the grid elec. to say that $25k will get you a good START, is mind boggling to them.
As soon as gov't mandates solar for new houses then the economics will be there. Also when there are contractors willing to take a fair profit instead of $12-$15 a watt, then there will be growth in the solar industry.

BB. · July 2008

Re: Solar more economical soon?

You do know that since ~2001, GW's home is 100% off-grid solar...

-Bill

System2 · July 2008

Re: Solar more economical soon?

adas wrote: »

Until then it is just us diehard, ex-hippy, green, tree hugging optimists, that like GW's moral values, but think he is a dunce.
frank

Whoa, speak for yourself there. I'm not an ex-hippy, I'm not green nor do I belive in anthropogenic global warming. I drive to work by myself in an American made V-8 SUV (almost 60 miles roundtrip) and have a tournament ski boat that I burn lots of gasoline in for fun. I don't recycle, cutting down trees doesn't hurt my feelings and I put my lawn clippings and leaves in the land fill. I don't fit your stereotype at all. While I strongly disagree with government taking my money and giving it to someone that puts solar panels on his roof, GW's private home is probably greener than 99.9% of all homes in the country.

Bad Apple

BB. · July 2008

Re: Solar more economical soon?

And for once, a true Internet/Email Rumor--A tale of two houses...

-Bill

Telco · July 2008

Re: Solar more economical soon?

Hoo, my most expensive power bill was 190 bucks, in August before I had a crapload of insulation blown into the ceiling. Averaging my power bill on a yearly basis, runs roughly 90 a month for 1800 or so sq foot living space with stupid cathedral ceilings (never again). That's 1080 per year. For natural gas, I use a max of 180 in the winter and 50 in the summer (35 of that is "fees and charges") for an average of 1000 a year. That's about 2100 per year I spend on electricity and natural gas. Al Gore spends more on a month's utilities than I do in a year! What a green weenie! I think I'll be just like him, and start harping about the environment while running the HVAC year round with all my windows and doors open! That oughta put my electrical/gas usage right up there with his!

Solar more economical soon?

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