Hurricane hits off grid solar installation on remote beach which previously had performance issues

richardimorse
richardimorse Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭
New owners at a remote resort without grid, existing installation is a Flex Power TWO plus generator, reports coming back that the system runs for 2 hours then shuts down, then starts 2 hours later then runs for 2 hours then shuts down.  Plan was to investigate with my clamp meter on Saturday, but last night a Cyclone hit and they have no power, no hot water and no water at all.  It looks like I have a lot to do.

Lets focus on the power:

1. Get generator power up and running with DB boards and check to see generator use case:
    a) used stand alone as alternative to solar system with transfer switch
    b) Used integrated with battery charging as an input power source to the inverters

We suspect a) in which case need to look at the upgrade requirements to use the generator as a battery charger as well.
Here here there may be a power gap which can be remedied with the generator running in the morning peak power use period, i.e. the battery DoD depletion percentage may be 30% every day and this could be what is causing the system to shut down and restart when the sun shines, hence some assistance in the near term from the generator in charging the batteries may be a good thing.

Since Hurricane hit,  the main lodge building is now E.L. tripping with the generator so we have to isolate the earth leakage cause, here we need to put a single local load onto the DB board and get that working first, then check each in building circuit to see if it is the E.L. cause, the first check is to ensure the inter-building power run is working from the power plant to the lodge.

Q) Is it better to keep generator separate or integrate with battery charging for peak demand 

2. Assess state of charge of batteries and ensure battery bank is charging to full capacity
    - A quick look at the front of the charge controllers should be a good starting point

Then I need to prepare my checklist to
1) get the solar system working
2) assess the new owners power load on the system and their future plans which appear to be in excess of current system capacity
3) assess the state of the batteries and panels and ensure it is charging to maximum power and check DoD levels configured
    - Panels are SUNTech 175 Watt * 27 in 9 strings of 3 and batteries are Rittar 230AH (Blue Top) 12V * 24 probably in 6 * 48V parallel strings
4) Plan a possible upgrade from a single Flex Power TWO system 6000VA  international product FP2 VFX-3048E 
    - By adding one additional pre-integrated Flex Power TWO or one additional pre-integrated Flex Power FOUR unit (3 phase)

Q) My feeling is any smaller increment in the central power system should be discouraged as a complex expensive upgrade
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Comments

  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018 #2
    2. Assess state of charge of batteries and ensure battery bank is charging to full capacity
        - A quick look at the front of the charge controllers should be a good starting point
    Most better battery charge controllers will have some method of data loging, This might help more to understand what is going on than anything.

    ... reports coming back that the system runs for 2 hours then shuts down, then starts 2 hours later then runs for 2 hours then shuts down...
    This sounds like an inverter shutting down to protect it's self, then restarting when the voltage comes up. Sounds like too large a load or diminished battery capacity.
    "New owners at a remo…"
    Most likely problem, new people not understanding living within an energy budget.
    "...batteries are Rittar 230AH (Blue Top) 12V * 24 probably in 6 * 48V parallel strings"
    Never a good situation to have this many strings of batteries.

    Good luck, sounds like you need to do some educating and likely replace some batteries. Check for a single dead battery pulling down the bank, but if it was a battery alone, I would think it's smoking!

    If the system has been in place for a while, you may need to replace the battery bank. Look to a max of 2 strings of batteries.

    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'd suggest getting a good handle on loads and expectations before considering solar system upgrades or replacements.

    At first glance, the use of smallish 12v batteries in six parallel strings could be a problem, with some strings overcharging while others are undercharged. The 27x175w array strikes me as on the small side to reliably charge a bank of that size.

    Once loads/expectations are known, battery can be properly sized, and a charging system designed accordingly.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,728 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    I saw three systems like this during fires this summer. You as the adult in charge have to sell the owner on building a decent battery system. The Outback system can be monitored with Optics from anywhere in the world. I would use an 8kw export Radian and stack if needed.

    Gensets may shut down and do weird things with a bad battery bank.

    Of the three I saw, only one replaced the battery with a single string and has had smooth sailing since.
    The other 2 are another company and one has no power and the other is running 24/7 on genset.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    I agree with just about all said above.  Can you please add a bit more info as to how long the new owners have been at the resort as well as some of their desires for using more POWER! that they don't appear to have, also just what has that poor system had to deliver before they 'bought the farm', as there may be some upgrades needed.ie LED lights, more PVs  etc...Nothing wrong with an old genset if well maintained...
    I would like to see a 2 string 48V bank setup using 2Volt cells of ~ 1000Ah, which would yield a bit more Watt-Hours than they have right now.
    But first get the SGs measured to rule out a failing cell(s)...  then sleuth out a ground fault or ?
    Cheers!
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • richardimorse
    richardimorse Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭
    edited October 2018 #6
    I agree with just about all said above.  Can you please add a bit more info as to how long the new owners have been at the resort as well as some of their desires for using more POWER! that they don't appear to have, also just what has that poor system had to deliver before they 'bought the farm', as there may be some upgrades needed.ie LED lights, more PVs  etc...Nothing wrong with an old genset if well maintained...
    I would like to see a 2 string 48V bank setup using 2Volt cells of ~ 1000Ah, which would yield a bit more Watt-Hours than they have right now.
    But first get the SGs measured to rule out a failing cell(s)...  then sleuth out a ground fault or ?
    Cheers!

    Hi, I have arrived on station in Mozambique to check it all out, what an amazing resort, room opens straight onto the beach,
    will send some photographs, when the Solar installation is fixed.

    Status, solar down, but generator working with water and hot water. SO lets look at the batteries to start with.

    Generator = ON, Load = Minimal, SOLAR = Not working

    Lets look at that later, 1st step - Assess state of Batteries

    6 Strings of 4 RA12-230 Rittar Blue Top Batteries
    Wiring = string end cables go straight to DC panel - Assuming Star wiring to DC Bus bars
    All Srings: +ve=Left side -ve = right side
    String 1 = Top Row
    String 6 = Bottom Row

    Using Current Clamp DC meter ensuring all readings are +VE values
    String 1: -ve to DC panel 0.21A ---[BAT #23]--- 0.24A ---[BAT #01]--- 0.29A ---[BAT #24]---0.27A ---[BAT #19]--- 0.60A +ve to DC panel
    String 2: -ve to DC panel 0.22A ---[BAT #16]--- 0.25A ---[BAT #22]--- 0.16A ---[BAT #12]---0.23A ---[BAT #06]--- 0.30A +ve to DC panel
    String 3: -ve to DC panel 0.26A ---[BAT #21]--- 0.30A ---[BAT #17]--- 0.16A ---[BAT #07]---0.07A ---[BAT #05]--- 0.28A +ve to DC panel
    String 4: -ve to DC panel 0.18A ---[BAT #18]--- 0.29A ---[BAT #15]--- 0.26A ---[BAT #13]---0.14A ---[BAT #09]--- 0.33A +ve to DC panel
    String 5: -ve to DC panel 0.17A ---[BAT #20]--- 0.16A ---[BAT #14]--- 0.15A ---[BAT #10]---0.15A ---[BAT #03]--- 0.24A +ve to DC panel
    String 6: -ve to DC panel 0.29A ---[BAT #08]--- 0.38A ---[BAT #02]--- 0.34A ---[BAT #11]---0.30A ---[BAT #04]--- 0.43A +ve to DC panel

    IN A BUS BAR PARALLEL CONFIGURATION ALL Shouldn't all the Above readings be the same ?

    Generator = ON, Load = Minimal

    Needed a break from the fumes (Genset is in Battery room).  So next step is to go and measure Voltage.
  • richardimorse
    richardimorse Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭
    edited October 2018 #7

    Day 1: Back after Voltage test, Generator = ON Load = minimal

    String 1: -ve to DC panel [BAT #23] = 13.56V     [BAT #01] = 13.39V     [BAT #24] = 13.68V     [BAT #19] = 13.68V = +ve to DC panel
    String 2: -ve to DC panel [BAT #16] = 13.36V     [BAT #22] = 14.00V     [BAT #12] = 13.16V     [BAT #06] = 13.74V = +ve to DC panel
    String 3: -ve to DC panel [BAT #21] = 14.06V     [BAT #17] = 13.77V     [BAT #07] = 13.34V     [BAT #05] = 14.00V = +ve to DC panel
    String 4: -ve to DC panel [BAT #18] = 14.08V     [BAT #15] = 13.34V     [BAT #13] = 14.14V     [BAT #09] = 14.05V = +ve to DC panel
    String 5: -ve to DC panel [BAT #20] = 14.06V     [BAT #14] = 13.53V     [BAT #10] = 13.77V     [BAT #03] = 13.84V = +ve to DC panel
    String 6: -ve to DC panel [BAT #08] = 13.31V     [BAT #02] = 13.87V     [BAT #11] = 14.11V     [BAT #04] = 13.81V = +ve to DC panel

    Corrosion on terminals
    String 5: [BAT #03] +VE Corroded 
    String 6: [BAT #02] -VE Corroded, [BAT #11] +VE and -VE Corroded, [BAT #04] = +VE Corroded

    Both FlexMax 80 reporting Batteries Charged.  So next step is inverter checks.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ritar Power does give an Equalizing/conditioning voltage, it might be worth following their procedures to try to bring up the lower cells and perhaps get them sharing the load a bit better.

    http://www.ritarpower.com/upimg/2015121117546922.pdf
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    It's difficult trying to decipher what someone else designed, which is compounded when there is a problem, even more so in absence going on figures and readings. On face value it would appear the batteries are fully charged in float, if indeed that is what the controller reports, they are AGM if not mistaken, so little can be done in the form of equalization to bring individual battery voltages in alignment . Any system really needs a custodian on site to conduct regular checks especially so when the users are not accustomed to conservation, I had three female guests for a few days, my/their consumption increased three fold. Sincerely i hope no major damage has occurred and a ground fault actually saved the system, a blessing in disguise.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • richardimorse
    richardimorse Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭
    Checked Inverters, The Master Inverter, Outback Flex Power TWO (which happens to be the top inverter and not the bottom, at least that one is in port 1 of the COMM Hub, shows a fault light when generator is not in use, I guess the best bet is to configure the system so that the bottom inverter is used as master and the top inverter is not used at all and is disconnected / while the top inverter is sent away for repair / replacement, also the pool pump inverter is not working a Lorentz PS600
  • richardimorse
    richardimorse Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭
    Photowhit said:

    Ritar Power does give an Equalizing/conditioning voltage, it might be worth following their procedures to try to bring up the lower cells and perhaps get them sharing the load a bit better.

    http://www.ritarpower.com/upimg/2015121117546922.pdf

    Then plan is to get up early tomorrow before generator is switched on and to test the battery voltage at rest, then to put batteries on equalisation charge from generator, that should shake em up a bit, but first need to check voltage is set to 14.8 V for equalisation

    Meantime need to work out what to do about the fault light on the master FX inverter
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    While diagnosing your sick batteries (AGM in 6 parallel strings is a sure disaster) be SURE your generator is being properly maintained, with proper oil changes and coolant checks. If you loose your generator, that's the end.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Do you have any way to charge individual batteries? With a nearly 1v difference it may be hard on higher voltage ones trying to get the lower voltage ones up to similar voltage. If not, maybe do them in batches grouped by voltage range?

    A PITA for sure, but you may want to disconnect, clean, and re-torque anyway.

    Resting voltages may be interesting, as would current balance under significant load or charge. I wonder if the inverter is faulting on LBCO? Does it fault right away when rebooted with only battery power and no load?
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • richardimorse
    richardimorse Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭
    edited October 2018 #14
    Estragon said:

    Do you have any way to charge individual batteries? With a nearly 1v difference it may be hard on higher voltage ones trying to get the lower voltage ones up to similar voltage. If not, maybe do them in batches grouped by voltage range?

    A PITA for sure, but you may want to disconnect, clean, and re-torque anyway.

    Resting voltages may be interesting, as would current balance under significant load or charge. I wonder if the inverter is faulting on LBCO? Does it fault right away when rebooted with only battery power and no load?

    Estragon said:

    Do you have any way to charge individual batteries? With a nearly 1v difference it may be hard on higher voltage ones trying to get the lower voltage ones up to similar voltage. If not, maybe do them in batches grouped by voltage range?

    A PITA for sure, but you may want to disconnect, clean, and re-torque anyway.

    Resting voltages may be interesting, as would current balance under significant load or charge. I wonder if the inverter is faulting on LBCO? Does it fault right away when rebooted with only battery power and no load?

    --------
    Yes going to need to do that, here are the battery voltages when not being charged by the generator: The batteries were left off overnight for 6 hours without any load apart from the 50Watts for the inverters, before the reading was taken this morning at 4am.

    Day 2: Reading at 4am after batteries at rest with no load for 6 hours - Generator = OFF
    String 1: -ve to DC panel [BAT #23] = 12.89V [BAT #01] = 12.91V [BAT #24] = 12.58V [BAT #19] = 12.91V = +ve to DC panel
    String 2: -ve to DC panel [BAT #16] = 12.83V [BAT #22] = 12.81V [BAT #12] = 12.83V [BAT #06] = 12.83V = +ve to DC panel
    String 3: -ve to DC panel [BAT #21] = 12.83V [BAT #17] = 12.81V [BAT #07] = 12.82V [BAT #05] = 12.83V = +ve to DC panel
    String 4: -ve to DC panel [BAT #18] = 12.81V [BAT #15] = 12.82V [BAT #13] = 12.83V [BAT #09] = 12.83V = +ve to DC panel
    String 5: -ve to DC panel [BAT #20] = 12.81V [BAT #14] = 12.82V [BAT #10] = 12.82V [BAT #03] = 12.89V = +ve to DC panel
    String 6: -ve to DC panel [BAT #08] = 12.83V [BAT #02] = 12.82V [BAT #11] = 12.82V [BAT #04] = 12.83V = +ve to DC panel

    So here we have 4 high reading batteries, I suspect a string was replaced with 4 new batteries.
    One low reading battery #24 which has been placed in the first string with three high reading batteries.
    -------
    Inverter faulting, Two causes are shown on the MATE, 1) High battery voltage 2) ac short circuit
    There was a lightening strike and when the inverters were on generator there was an E.L. Trip which has been fixed, so my guess is that since both are power related errors, it could be that the power control board is faulty due to the short circuit that happened.

    I swapped roles of inverters so bottom one is P01 and designated 1-2ph master with top one now P2 designated as OB Slave L1
    this brought the power back on with top inverter still showing the same faults, so switched its DC off and have resort running on a single inverter with no errors being shown but 1/2 the capacity available = 13Amps

    So I can either try swapping over the power control boards, or just send the inverter back to South Africa for repair.
    --------
    Pool pump inverter system = Lorentz PS600 looks like it has blown, so will check that next
    -------
    Control board looks blown in the Lorentz PS600, no led lights working at all, still getting 110V DC from panels (cloudy)
    Have assumed we need to replace the control board
    ------
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Battery #24 looks weak at 12.58 volts...

    There is one way to help that battery... Get some 12 volt brake lamp bulbs and wire on some alligator clips. In this case connect the bulbs to the other 3x batteries that are "higher" voltage... And this will give you ~1-2 amps of bypass current to charge the weak battery (if it is "salvageable").

    You will have to monitor the voltages across the other cells to make sure you don't take battery 24 over the state of charge of the other batteries.

    The series clamp meter current readings are either a bit strange, or simply the level of accuracy with the equipment you have (are you zeroing the DC Clamp meter every so often? DC clamp meters have zero drift over time and temperature).

    There do not appear to be any "cross connected" (or ladder connects) between strings? They are all wired in series and paralleled at the 24 volt +/- bus bars?

    There should only be "one" current measurement per string (each battery in a single strings "sees" the exact same current).

    One other thing to check... You want the battery cables in each string to match overall length. If one string has an "extra long" cable run, it will have more resistance for those batteries and cause them to supply/accept less current. You want to measure the "quality" of the cables and their connections under heavy current (either supplying loads, or charging a discharged battery bank). That is when any cable/resistance issues will generally show up.

    Many folks will terminate absorb charging when the charging current falls below ~2% to 1% rate of charge (i.e., a 200 AH battery string, terminate a normal charging cycle at ~4 to 2 amperes). AGMs should have low "leakage current" and will draw well under 1% rate of charge when full. If your batteries ever show a charging cycle tail of >1-2% rate of charge (the batteries never fall below 1% rate of charge with normal absorb set point voltage), the batteries are getting old and need replacing soon. Any batteries that "tail" at >2% rate of charge, should be replaced right away (or taken out of service). They will run hot and can overheat if >2% is pumped through them for hours on end).

    There is an "absorb" that some folks (and battery mfgs) recommend for their AGM batteries. Whatever the absorb charging set point is (say 14.4 volts per 12 volt battery or 57.6 VDC on the 48 volt bus bars), hold that voltage for ~8 hours every 6 months. That is the typical "Equalization Charge" for an AGM battery bank.

    Your post #7 vs post #14 voltages kind of have me wondering what is going on... post #14 looks pretty good with just battery #24 looking like it can use some help...

    Post #7 the batteries look all over the map.

    What is the absorb voltage set point (or was this floating)--What was the 48 bus charging voltage from the genset?

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • richardimorse
    richardimorse Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭
    I have the system on a single inverter now without the genset, so will re-test the current, whats your feeling about the 1st inverter, I am going to remove the power control board from the first unit and get it ready it ready for replacement in the other unit first thing in the morning, have you seen the ac current short circuit with battery over voltage error combo before, we actually had a bad lightning strike, it knocked two resort managers over and gave them red feet for a day. They are OK but I would not be surprised if the Outback power control board is damaged in some way, the same unit works on generator but that could explain the weird readings with the clamp.

    I am off to test again now with a good inverter both current and voltage while on small load with panels and batteries working.
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    FWIW, I had boards fail in one of my OB VFXs. No lightning, and no warning or error codes, just went dark. This happened on two occasions to one inverter, and between the two events, I replaced all (3 IIRC) boards.

    OB shipped replacements promptly (under warranty in my case), and replacement in the inverter was relatively straightforward.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • richardimorse
    richardimorse Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭
    OK, tried testing yesterday afternoon but readings were all over the place with the Current Clamp meter, left system to discharge batteries overnight and retested this morning, initially with a 0.3kW load and then turned on main waterer borehole pump with a 1.5 kW load, and the readings for the 1st string were very low to zero 0.05 Amps compared with 5.4 Amps on the other strings, (the bottom 6th string was higher than all the others by 0.3 Amps, so from Voltage test yesterday, that showed battery 24 as low voltage, that is going to be the failed battery.

    Remember all the other batteries in that string showed a high voltage, so my thinking is that would be because the other batteries were trying to charge the failed battery and hence the good batteries in the failed string were getting overcharged.  So disconnected string 1 completely, and the remaining 20 batteries are getting charged with 11.xx Amps from the 2 charge controllers and the panels, will leave it alone for now until bulk charge is finished, and check back later for weak batteries, since the other 3 batteries in the string are an unknown state, best bet is to let the others charge, test them again to find the 3 weakest batteries and swap the 3 weakest out with the 3 unknowns and then after 1 day test again just in case one of the 3 unknowns is actually one of the weakest.  So batteries stabilised for now.

  • richardimorse
    richardimorse Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭
    edited October 2018 #19

    Next I need 2 quotes for a broken PS600 control board and an inverter repair ---- I am a bit worried about swapping the boards on the good inverter, so will probably take that back to joburg for repair, as I dont' want to break the working inverter by putting a faulty board in it or break the working board by putting it in a faulty inverter and end up leaving the resort with no power.

    Q) In your opinion could the battery damage have been caused by the lightening strike which took out the inverter, Insurance claim for lightening strike is in progress, note, the battery +VE cables do not appear to have fuses on them unless they are hidden in the DC box of the FlexPower Two, but I didn't see anything on the panel apart from 2 Isolator switches for the DC supply to the inverters.
  • richardimorse
    richardimorse Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭
    Next issue is the upgrade has been approved, so have to go back to my other thread about what to do with an old battery bank when upgrading a system, here the approval is without a full sizing but is basically to add 1 inverter, 1 charge controller and bits making a Flex Power THREE, where I guess I can run the old stuff on 1 inverter for the laundry and kitchen and use the new stuff for all the well behaved power in the resort on 24 new 2V batteries and some extra 365Watt panels, there are 2 decommissioned Trackers here, they got decommissioned due to wind shear, the wind sail was 4.8 meters by 4 metres, so I am thinking about putting 3 new panels 1 string on each of the trackers with only a 3 meter by 2 meter wind sail each and putting 3 more on the ground with the old panels, it can get very very windy here
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2018 #21
    Q) In your opinion could the battery damage have been caused by the lightening strike which took out the inverter, Insurance claim for lightening strike is in progress, note, the battery +VE cables do not appear to have fuses on them unless they are hidden in the DC box of the FlexPower Two, but I didn't see anything on the panel apart from 2 Isolator switches for the DC supply to the inverters.

    The batteries are unlikely to be damaged by lightning, its is usually confined to the electronics, I've lost an inverter and charge controller in seperate incidents. Surge protection devices, SPD's, are essential in the tropics, learned the hard way, both on the array DC and the AC output of the inverter. The entire AC circuitry is an antenna, especially if in nonmetallic conduit or free air, a strike may even be indirect, intercloud or cloud to cloud to produce enough magnetic induction into the conductors.

    Curiosity question where is the resort? Spent holidays in Beira every year, at least until FRELMO/ ZANLA decided  to launch a rocket and mortar attack on us in Umtali, 1976. Loved Mozambique but never returned, post attack. 
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • richardimorse
    richardimorse Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭
    BB. said:
    the level of accuracy with the equipment you have (are you zeroing the DC Clamp meter every so often? DC clamp meters have zero drift over time and temperature).

    ----
    I have learned not to try and read all the cables, just the central cable in each string to see the difference between strings and then the variance across each string separately, that way I get a table like this
    < -0.2A >   < 0 >     < +0.05A >     < REF >     < +0.03A >    <  0 > when measuring across the series string     
    and down the strings                       < 0 >
                                                         < -0.2A >

    where REF is the reference Amperage and each number is a difference using the REL key on the Clamp Meter
    that way when the voltage changes, I get the same approximation otherwise recording the Amps is all over the place when the load changes and I have to start again, this way i get an idea by re-recording the reference voltage which batteries are working OK



  • richardimorse
    richardimorse Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭
    mcgivor said:
    The batteries are unlikely to be damaged by lightning, its is usually confined to the electronics, I've lost an inverter and charge controller in seperate incidents. Surge protection devices, SPD's, are essential in the tropics, learned the hard way, both on the array DC and the AC output of the inverter. The entire AC circuitry is an antenna, especially if in nonmetallic conduit or free air, a strike may even be indirect, intercloud or cloud to cloud to produce enough magnetic induction into the conductors.

    Curiosity question where is the resort? Spent holidays in Beira every year, at least until FRELMO/ ZANLA decided  to launch a rocket and mortar attack on us in Umtali, 1976. Loved Mozambique but never returned, post attack. 
    We are in Inhambane, near Barra and Tofo
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Thanks for sharing, didn't mean to sidetrack, beautiful location if Beira is anything to go by.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I agree with @mcgivor that it's unlikely lightning is directly responsible for failed battery(s).  

    You may however, be able to make a credible case that the battery failure(s) were indirectly caused by the lightning in that the failed master inverter prevented the backup generator from keeping the bank properly charged.

    Also, I've heard of cases where boats with lightning damage can see electronics having appeared to have survived, only to fail many days/weeks after the event.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,728 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Anyone who reasons what can and can't be damaged by lightning is fooling themself. In my opinion.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Anyone who reasons what can and can't be damaged by lightning is fooling themself. In my opinion.
    Very true, just working with the law of averages, lightning has a law all of its own, we can think we have a means of control, but in reality we are  merely the victim . 
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Agreed, which is why I said "unlikely", not impossible.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • richardimorse
    richardimorse Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭
    mike95490 said:
    While diagnosing your sick batteries (AGM in 6 parallel strings is a sure disaster) be SURE your generator is being properly maintained, with proper oil changes and coolant checks. If you loose your generator, that's the end.
    We are ordering a new 7.5KVA generator with AGS to replace the very old existing 4.5KVA genset
  • richardimorse
    richardimorse Registered Users Posts: 98 ✭✭
    Estragon said:
    Agreed, which is why I said "unlikely", not impossible.
    4 batteries are showing positive terminal damage, 1 battery showing negative terminal damage and 1 battery failed, 1 battery linking cable damaged 1 positive DC connect cable damaged, have swapped out bad batteries, #3, #4 and #11 with good batteries, #23, #1 and #19 this leaves 2 slightly damaged batteries left in the system, #02 and #09 so charging batteries in new configuration today with 5 strings and testing inverter boards to isolate which inverter board is reporting the problem, AC, FET or Control
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    @richardimorse If you are considering future replacement of the batteries you may want to get in contact with https://www.sustainable.co.za when consideration is given to the price of Rittar 230ah bluetop at around R8500 apiece R204 000 (quick search ) for 24 pieces the prices are competitive, remembering with lead acid there is only 50% available capacity, worth looking into.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.