Chinese Li-ion batteries for RV

Some one on the Teardrop &Tiny Travel Trailer forum asked if any one had experience with Chinese Li-ion batteries. Smaller less weight... The question is this  https://dmdinverter.en.alibaba.com/product/60536302549-804800430/Deep_cycles_2000_times_ultra_light_ultra_thin_12v_lithium_panel_energy_storage_solar_battery_200ah.html?spm=a2700.8304367.0.0.bJQ9DU A real life possibility and what are the down sides.


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  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,874Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Some one on the Teardrop &Tiny Travel Trailer forum asked if any one had experience with Chinese Li-ion batteries. Smaller less weight... The question is this  https://dmdinverter.en.alibaba.com/product/60536302549-804800430/Deep_cycles_2000_times_ultra_light_ultra_thin_12v_lithium_panel_energy_storage_solar_battery_200ah.html?spm=a2700.8304367.0.0.bJQ9DU A real life possibility and what are the down sides.
    Warranty claims ?
    Which "Li" formula ?  LiPo4 (LFP) seems to be the safest (least fire) pack compared to others. But still burns well..
    getting mismatched batteries that reduce your expected pack capacity by 20% ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • mike95490mike95490 Posts: 7,874Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    NO !!
    pic from your link These are possibly "re-claimed", re-wrapped batteries from failed laptops
     (and I don't trust their -20C temp spec)  (I don't trust the different shades of heat shrink wrap)
    Way too many contact points - just 1 bad one can ruin your day





    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • ShadowcatcherShadowcatcher Posts: 228Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    There are other Chinese manufacturers, thanks for the potential problem.
     
  • HorseflyHorsefly Posts: 308Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    There are other Chinese manufacturers, thanks for the potential problem.
     
    I think the point from @mike95490 is making is that the specific chemistry of the cells is pretty important. The chemistry that is used in laptops and the like (most of the recycled chinese cells as far as I can tell) have an electrolyte that is much more combustive. It isn't which chinese manufacture you get them from, it is the chemical composition of the cells.

    Having said that, I'm only a very interested observer of all the Li Ion battery technology. However there are several *REAL* experts here and you should probably pay some attention to them.
    Off-grid cabin: 6 x Canadian Solar CSK-280M PV panels, Schneider XW-MPPT60-150 Charge Controller, Schneider CSW4024 Inverter/Charger, Schneider SCP, 4 x Vmax XTR12-155 12V, 155AH batteries in a 2x2 24V 310AH bank.
  • Raj174Raj174 Posts: 639Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    @Shadowcatcher
    There are a lot of RV's that use Lithium Iron Phosphate (LFP) batteries. There are basically 2 types. There are manufactured 12 volt packs, usually 100 amp hour, but they can be installed in parallel for more amp hours.
    https://www.solar-electric.com/battle-born-bb10012-100ah-12v-lithium-battery.html

    Then there are the large prismatic LFP cells that range from 20AH up to 1000AH.  These cells can be purchased in custom built packs with a BMS or they can be top balanced and installed as a DIY battery bank. Proper balancing and charging procedures need to be carefully followed with a DIY bank.
    Here's a link to this type cell.
    http://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/Prismatic-Lithium-Batteries_c_1.html

    Rick   


    3600W PV, MNE175DR-TR epanel modified, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 54.4V 207AH LiFePO4 no BMS, 4500W genset.
  • PNjunctionPNjunction Posts: 762Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    Most of the serious guys in the past eschew the use of "drop-in" replacements, and go for KISS with large prismatics.  But to each his own.  Note that some manufacturers may warn against doing any sort of series-parallel arrangements.  Mostly because trying to keep disparate drop-in cells balanced amongst themselves can be an issue.

    Sadly, with LFP, the basics of battery bank construction are lost.

    Ask yourself this:  If you were building a large capacity AGM bank for your RV, would you purchase hundreds of 2.5Ah Odyssey/Enersys Cyclon cells and tack weld them all together and slap them in a box? (as good as those are).  NO.

    At least battle born identifies the LFP chemistry.  However, we have no idea what the quality of those internal cells are, nor are we assured that the quality won't change if they decide to go with different vendors.  The consumer won't know.  Essentially, you don't know what you are getting.

    Do you buy lead acid this way not knowing who actually made your cells?  

    In the past, *NEW* cells like A123 were proudly identified as being the internal cells with certain large(ish) capacity batteries (along with Kokam and others), for those of us in the know to make a more informed decision.

    STill, at some point we avoid the "magic box" concept not knowing what is actually inside, and potential problem points adding up from so many internal connection points.  Hence the simplicity of large prismatics you can actually put your voltmeter across - on each and every cell as part of a preventative maintenance routine.

  • ShadowcatcherShadowcatcher Posts: 228Solar Expert ✭✭✭
    The prismatic looks interesting, the Morningstar solar controller can be programmed to work well and Progressive Dynamics makes a head unit for their converter. Thanks all for your input.  
  • OldManOldMan Posts: 32Registered Users ✭✭
    Raj174 said:
    @Shadowcatcher
    Then there are the large prismatic LFP cells that range from 20AH up to 1000AH.  These cells can be purchased in custom built packs with a BMS or they can be top balanced and installed as a DIY battery bank. Proper balancing and charging procedures need to be carefully followed with a DIY bank.
    Here's a link to this type cell.
    http://www.electriccarpartscompany.com/Prismatic-Lithium-Batteries_c_1.html

    Rick   


    I just spoke with Carl this afternoon. Shared some old-man stories. Carl is a cool guy who knows his sh*t. I'll be building a 400w battery bank with his battery cells. 8x3.2vdc 100ah, in series. Kills me to lose the power but I don't know how else to do it...three 250w 24vdc panels. MPPT controller, 3000/6000 inverter. I thought I was going to buy panels from China but there appear to be some around in the States for the same pricing.  Sometimes you have to wait until the season ends and they do  close outs (I should have jumped a few weeks ago, 300W panels for $115. Monocrystalline. 36V)

  • Raj174Raj174 Posts: 639Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 24 #10
    @OldMan
    Yep, I have spoken with Carl several times and yes, he knows his stuff. So, 8 100AH cells in series is a 24 volt 100AH battery bank. Standard charge current is about 33 amps. The 3 panels with an MPPT controller should give you 21 to 26 amps depending on panel temp. It's a fairly small bank for a 3000 watt inverter, but you haven't stated the loads involved so might be ok. What's the brand and model number? Is this for RV?

    Rick
    3600W PV, MNE175DR-TR epanel modified, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 54.4V 207AH LiFePO4 no BMS, 4500W genset.
  • OldManOldMan Posts: 32Registered Users ✭✭
    edited February 24 #11
    Raj174 said:
    @OldMan
    Yep, I have spoken with Carl several times and yes, he knows his stuff. So, 8 100AH cells in series is a 24 volt 100AH battery bank. Standard charge current is about 33 amps. The 3 panels with an MPPT controller should give you 21 to 26 amps depending on panel temp. It's a fairly small bank for a 3000 watt inverter, but you haven't stated the loads involved so might be ok. What's the brand and model number? Is this for RV?

    Rick
    According to my calculations, it gives me 400ah @ 12vdc. That's what Carl said. My load will be heavy at times, esp in the evening. TV, fridge, sound gear (sound gear is all JBL except the head and the headphone amp). All sound gear is routed through a Yamaha MG/10 mixer. TV now, music later or if I get good and baked, music all night!!! (zzzzz). I'm a medical user.

    Inverter brand is Power Tech on (Arizona company), This is the inverter.

    Charge Controller is an EPPV Tracer 40a MPPT. This is the controller.

    I hope I'm doing this right. I am less confident today.
  • Raj174Raj174 Posts: 639Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    OldMan said:
    Raj174 said:
    @OldMan
    Yep, I have spoken with Carl several times and yes, he knows his stuff. So, 8 100AH cells in series is a 24 volt 100AH battery bank. Standard charge current is about 33 amps. The 3 panels with an MPPT controller should give you 21 to 26 amps depending on panel temp. It's a fairly small bank for a 3000 watt inverter, but you haven't stated the loads involved so might be ok. What's the brand and model number? Is this for RV?

    Rick
    According to my calculations, it gives me 400ah @ 12vdc.
    Series cells add volts, parallel cells add amps,. So 3.2V times 8 = 25.6 volts and the amperage stays the same at 100.
    2 parallel strings of 4 cells in series would give you a 12 volt 200AH bank.

    Rick  
    3600W PV, MNE175DR-TR epanel modified, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 54.4V 207AH LiFePO4 no BMS, 4500W genset.
  • Raj174Raj174 Posts: 639Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    If I were going to set up a 12V 400AH bank I'd use four 400AH cells. Easier to balance, easier to manage. But I do not like paralleling strings. Carl would probably disagree with that, but that is my preference.  
    3600W PV, MNE175DR-TR epanel modified, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 54.4V 207AH LiFePO4 no BMS, 4500W genset.
  • Raj174Raj174 Posts: 639Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    @OldMan
    The inverter link didn't work. I assure you that 16 100AH cells would be necessary to make a 12 volt 400AH bank, but I wouldn't recommend doing it that way. There must have been some miscommunication with Carl concerning the battery. They had 400AH cells up until a couple of months ago but not now. 220AH are the largest they have right now.

    Rick  
    3600W PV, MNE175DR-TR epanel modified, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 54.4V 207AH LiFePO4 no BMS, 4500W genset.
  • Raj174Raj174 Posts: 639Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    @OldMan
    Also, the 40 amp controller is going to limit power production to 576 watts or about 2.5 KWH, and that's with a 5 hour solar day. Probably less than your loads and about half of what a 400AH bank will hold. I believe a 60 amp controller would be more appropriate.

    Rick
    3600W PV, MNE175DR-TR epanel modified, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 54.4V 207AH LiFePO4 no BMS, 4500W genset.
  • OldManOldMan Posts: 32Registered Users ✭✭
    Raj174 said:
    @OldMan
    Yep, I have spoken with Carl several times and yes, he knows his stuff. So, 8 100AH cells in series is a 24 volt 100AH battery bank. Standard charge current is about 33 amps. The 3 panels with an MPPT controller should give you 21 to 26 amps depending on panel temp. It's a fairly small bank for a 3000 watt inverter, but you haven't stated the loads involved so might be ok. What's the brand and model number? Is this for RV?

    Rick

    Raj174 said:
    @OldMan
    Also, the 40 amp controller is going to limit power production to 576 watts or about 2.5 KWH, and that's with a 5 hour solar day. Probably less than your loads and about half of what a 400AH bank will hold. I believe a 60 amp controller would be more appropriate.

    Rick
    Thanks, Rick. Looking into it, now!!!
  • Raj174Raj174 Posts: 639Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    @OldMan

    The reason I asked about the inverter is the tare lose, the power that the inverter itself uses. It can be 500 watt hours or more per day with larger inverters and needs to be taken into account with the loads while planing a system.

    Rick
    3600W PV, MNE175DR-TR epanel modified, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 54.4V 207AH LiFePO4 no BMS, 4500W genset.
  • OldManOldMan Posts: 32Registered Users ✭✭
    Raj174 said:
    @OldMan

    The reason I asked about the inverter is the tare lose, the power that the inverter itself uses. It can be 500 watt hours or more per day with larger inverters and needs to be taken into account with the loads while planing a system.

    Rick
    I think it's 20 percent which is in your ballpark. Seems most of them run about 80/20, and isn't there some rule about that? ;)
  • Raj174Raj174 Posts: 639Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 8 #19
    @OldMan

    I'm not sure about a rule. The tare lose is in watts, and usually listed in the inverter manual.
    By the way, did you get the battery issue resolved with Carl?

    Rick
    3600W PV, MNE175DR-TR epanel modified, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 54.4V 207AH LiFePO4 no BMS, 4500W genset.
  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,774Registered Users ✭✭✭✭
    Just to clarify, there are two types of inverter losses. 

    There's a loss inherent in the efficiency of converting lower DC voltage to higher AC voltage, which depends on the inverter and the size of load.  Peak efficiency seems to be about 85% for most decent PSW inverters, but it can be much lower with small loads on a large inverter.

    There's also a loss caused by just having the inverter on and idle.  Larger inverters tend to have larger idle losses.  Some have a search mode to reduce this type of loss.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • OldManOldMan Posts: 32Registered Users ✭✭
    Raj174 said:
    @OldMan

    I'm not sure about a rule. The tare lose is in watts, and usually listed in the inverter manual.
    By the way, did you get the battery issue resolved with Carl?

    Rick
    Raj174 said:
    @OldMan

    I'm not sure about a rule. The tare lose is in watts, and usually listed in the inverter manual.
    By the way, did you get the battery issue resolved with Carl?

    Rick
    Not really. I just did the math and as much as I wanted to build my own, it wasn't working out as economically feasible, would cost more than buying a pack from Shenzen. So I'll buy two, run them in parallel and get more amps for the volts...
  • just startingjust starting Posts: 221Registered Users ✭✭
    Are you going to buy the fortune 100 ah cells? I did do 16 cells for a 24v setup so far it's been about 40 days and going good. Purchased from carl also.
    200ah LiFePO4 24v Electrodacus Sbms40 quad breaker chest freezer to fridge- Samlex PST 1524 - Samlex pst3024  - 1hp shallow well pump-Marey 4.3 GPM on demand waterheater - mama bear Fisher wood burning stove, 30" fridgarair oven ,fridegaire dishwasher  Unique 290l stainless D.C. Fridge-unique 120l portable fridge/freezer 
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