Tariff on Chinese panels........

First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
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  • softdownsoftdown Posts: 1,889Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Happened today....I think.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Posts: 4,703Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    I got the idea that it's an across the board tariff on imported panels and cells, not just China. At least it's known and the industry can start moving again.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, ForkLift battery. Off grid for @13 of last 14 years. 1000 watts being added to current CC, @2700 watts to be added with an additional CC.
  • OldManOldMan Posts: 32Registered Users ✭✭
    I haven't seen evidence of the tariff starting, yet, and I haven't seen anything in the NYT about it. What's up with it?
  • OldManOldMan Posts: 32Registered Users ✭✭
    Even with the tariff, my panels from China will cost less than from an American vendor. No one makes panels in the US, any more.
  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,838Registered Users ✭✭✭✭✭
    Per Bloomberg; 1st 2.5GW exempt, tarriff of 30% for a year, then dropping to 15% gradually over unspecified number of years.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Posts: 4,703Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Estragon said:
    Per Bloomberg; 1st 2.5GW exempt, ...
    If someone could explain this I'd be interested. I can't recall the numbers but thought we only installed 10 GWs per year...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, ForkLift battery. Off grid for @13 of last 14 years. 1000 watts being added to current CC, @2700 watts to be added with an additional CC.
  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Posts: 4,703Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    OldMan said:
    I haven't seen evidence of the tariff starting, yet, and I haven't seen anything in the NYT about it. What's up with it?

    https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/22/business/trump-tariffs-washing-machines-solar-panels.html
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, ForkLift battery. Off grid for @13 of last 14 years. 1000 watts being added to current CC, @2700 watts to be added with an additional CC.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,010Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Some of the best are made here BTW. Prism one of the most beautiful bifacial panels in NY, Mission in Texas,and Panasonic also in New York and another plant I can't remember. Sunpower has headquarters in San Jose. The Tarif is what the 2 companies who were driven out of business from dumping below cost Suniva and ? wanted. It is less than what was wanted and phases out pretty fast also. 
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Posts: 4,703Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    It is less than what was wanted and phases out pretty fast also. 
    But, I think more than what was suggested. I think 20% was suggested after evaluation.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, ForkLift battery. Off grid for @13 of last 14 years. 1000 watts being added to current CC, @2700 watts to be added with an additional CC.
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,010Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23 #11
    My read  is he took a middle ground so it depends on what is read. My info is from my suppliers who are biased for this.
    Their main goal was to take away a tax credit for buyers here that basically was subsidizing non US made cells and panels.

    I really do not like tariffs and I think companies will start coming back with the new much needed tax policy of the US government.


    I remember when Sunpower sent most all of there production out but kept the R & D in San Jose where I lived at the time. I hope they bring it back here with inexpensive energy a favorable business climate. Their panels are amazing for power per square foot, with a 25 year product warranty and internal connections that are triple redundant.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Posts: 1,027Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Can't say that I've researched this tariff at all but I am curious. Where is this money going? With the current administration's attitude on renewable energy I'd be surprised it would be going that direction.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,010Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    So what is their "attitude?" Have you researched it or are you reading the NY times:)
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Posts: 1,027Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Neither Dave, Lets just say with Trumps Pro coal and offshore drilling, overland pipeline stance coupled with his feelings on global warming I concluded he's not real Pro renewable energy. Maybe I shouldn't assume such things. Still curious as to what happens to this tariff money?

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,883Super Moderators, Administrators admin
    Constitutionally, tariffs are the original method of funding the federal government.

    http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h394.html

    The Constitution (text) gives Congress the power to collect duties and imposts (Article I, Section 8, Clause 1), but prohibits the imposition of export duties (Article I, Section 9, Clause 5).

    Things like income taxes and federal employment taxes were something later (and of questionable constitutionality).

    I am pro "green", but much of the federal and state laws+subsidies are "green washing". At best most are an environmental wash, and many are trashing the environment. And making for expensive and unreliable utility power.

    Early pollution control laws worked out well (once manufactures figured out how to make reliable clean cars once manufactures figured put how).

    For example, pipelines are much cheaper and safer than than trucks and rail cars. Look up "Warren Buffett cashes in on rail tank cars" as some folks blocked the northern pipelines.

    Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Posts: 1,027Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Offshore drilling and pipelines are safe, until they fail, Then they are usually catastrophic. 

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,010Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23 #17
    The one part of the last FERC hearing a few weeks back I was hopeful for was hardening the grid. 
    But they rolled Coal subsidies and Nuclear in and we were lucky it did not pass. If there is anything that raises my neck hairs is an EMP with 40 reactors in the states. I mean way up the scale from an oil leak.  You better stay in Mexico that year!   --Dave

    "In its decision, the five-member energy panel essentially agreed with critics who said there was no evidence of a threat to the grid’s day-to-day reliability that would justify the emergency action Perry was seeking.

    An Energy Department report last year called reliability “adequate,” citing significant additions to the grid from natural gas, wind, and solar.

    FERC said in its decision that it is launching a new process to evaluate the resilience of the nation’s electric grid, which is overseen by a network of regional transmission organizations and independent system operators.

    Left: An independent energy agency on Monday rejected a Trump administration plan to bolster coal-fired and nuclear power plants, dealing a blow to President Donald Trump's efforts to boost the struggling coal industry. Photo by Chris Aluka Berry/REUTERS



    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • BB.BB. Posts: 27,883Super Moderators, Administrators admin
    Even big events have a mixed affect on the environment.

    https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/6029514

    (Crude) Oil is a natural product. There have been natural seeps forever and microbes have evolved to digest things like oil.

    Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,010Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Yep!  but none to digest plutonium :'(
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,838Registered Users ✭✭✭✭✭
    > @Dave Angelini said:
    > Yep!  but none to digest plutonium :'(

    Yet. We'll be dust, but cockroaches will feast on our aftermath :smile:
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • PluckaPlucka Posts: 60Registered Users ✭✭
    Are tariffs just and extra tax or is Trump going to give the money back in another way ?
  • mcgivormcgivor Posts: 2,203Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    All too often a tariff is a tax in disguise, plowed into general revenues and used for whatever. A trustworthy government will be transparent showing where the benefits of the tariff are used to benifit the nation as a whole, honestly and integrity are key. This could be for any nation, any leader, but it would seem few are forthcoming in these departments. Just an unbiased viewpoint.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 

  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Posts: 1,027Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    This exact thing has been bugging me lately. Where does this Tariff money go? 
     Seems to me it should be earmarked to benefit the industry sector it was put in place to protect in the first place. 

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • mcgivormcgivor Posts: 2,203Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11 #24
    The tariffs could force foreign  companies to set up shop in the nation which chooses to impose such penalties, using inexpensive labor, at first, to build the production chain , until organized  lobour unions step in driving the price  up to where importation once again becomes less expensive, but more expensive for the consumer. Then there will be another election with a flip flop in policy, which will open markets providing opportunity to the country with the lowest labor costs, then the whole process will repeat itself.
    No nation is immune, it's simply  economics.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery bank 

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,010Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11 #25
    He of course is keeping it for himself and wants everyone in the solar industry to pay him 5 cents per KWH ;)

    It is just revenue. Like the gasoline tax in California it goes everywhere and then they have little money left to repair the roads.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • littleharbor2littleharbor2 Posts: 1,027Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭


    It is just revenue. Like the gasoline tax in California it goes everywhere and then they have little money left to repair the roads.
    Boy!, you've got that right Dave. California HAS to have more vehicles registered than any other state. Yet we have some of the worst roads in some areas. Don't get me started on registration fees. I happen to own two trucks, one on Catalina and one on the mainland. I could buy a nice used car with what it cost me in yearly registration fees. I Could move one state away and do them both for less than one C-note.

    2.1 Kw Suntech 175 mono, Classic 200, Trace SW 4024 ( 15 years old  but brand new out of sealed factory box Jan. 2015), Bogart Tri-metric, 700 ah @24 volt AGM battery bank. Plenty of Baja Sea of Cortez sunshine.

  • softdownsoftdown Posts: 1,889Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Given Trumps choice of words "beautiful clean coal" and fondness for our oil companies, there is almost no chance that Trump will be solar friendly.

    Interesting that our Millenials often think that solar can solve our problems. Try telling them that solar requires currently unavailable battery technology in order to replace the current grid? You will find just how spoiled, immature, unrealistic, and petulant many of them are. They must also believe in unicorns and fairy dust to power industry.

    Our mistake was energizing China to engage in free trade. It is a matter of time before China is the global super power and the rest of the developed world is largely in debtors shambles. Sound familiar?

    It is a bit late to radically change course now. Too many powerful people getting rich from Chinese manufacturing and importing. We painted ourselves into the proverbial corner. 
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • bill von novakbill von novak Posts: 783Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    softdown said:
    Interesting that our Millenials often think that solar can solve our problems. Try telling them that solar requires currently unavailable battery technology in order to replace the current grid? You will find just how spoiled, immature, unrealistic, and petulant many of them are. They must also believe in unicorns and fairy dust to power industry.
    It's fun to rag on millenials, but none of the millenials I know think that. They're surprisingly well informed once you talk to them about it.
  • PhotowhitPhotowhit Posts: 4,703Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    softdown said:
    Interesting that our Millenials often think that solar can solve our problems. Try telling them that solar requires currently unavailable battery technology in order to replace the current grid? You will find just how spoiled, immature, unrealistic, and petulant many of them are. They must also believe in unicorns and fairy dust to power industry.
    It's fun to rag on millenials, but none of the millenials I know think that. They're surprisingly well informed once you talk to them about it.
    VERY surprised to hear that. It's simply amazing how companies promote this as well. Love Apple 'saying' they are 100%  powered by renewable energy... Of course this is BS unless you count the grid as a battey;

    https://www.apple.com/newsroom/2018/04/apple-now-globally-powered-by-100-percent-renewable-energy/

    I have bright intelligent friends who continually suggest we can be sustained on renewables. They also like to point to Germany and how on some days they "produce all their needed electric by solar" which is of course BS... They too are counting pushing into a EU grid and drawing from it or their own fossil fueled sources at night;

    https://www.technologyreview.com/s/601514/germany-runs-up-against-the-limits-of-renewables/
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Prosine 1800 and Exeltech 1100, ForkLift battery. Off grid for @13 of last 14 years. 1000 watts being added to current CC, @2700 watts to be added with an additional CC.
  • EstragonEstragon Posts: 2,838Registered Users ✭✭✭✭✭
    How does that go again? Something like "If you aren't a liberal when you're young, you have no heart. If you stay a liberal when you're older, you have no brain".

    The Millenials I know are all quite capable of understanding the challenges of doing something close to 100% renewables once they're explained. The problem is they, like most other people, tend to think in terms of simple slogans, sound bites, and marketing in forming opinions, for the simple reason that they don't have time to do a deep dive on the facts.

    Once motivated to do the deep dive, I've found them mostly better than us old farts at sorting out the real facts vs FUD and marketing BS.

    As far as tariffs go, maybe I should get the couple of things I need from the US before they close the border?
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,010Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    The border will not close!  It is just time for the US to stop subsidizing places that are safe enough to not start another war.

    Tariffs are against the US also but that does not need to be reported....

    We (US) can't really can't afford anymore wars!

    Look at the last couple hundred years. A pretty good record of at least trying to be the good guy. Not perfect but tell me please who do you think would be better?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

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