MS4448PAE and electric motor

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Wbuffetjr1
Wbuffetjr1 Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭
in Off Grid Solar & Battery Systems #1
I have this electric motor.  
http://www.baldor.com/catalog/EL3510#tab="performance"
Starting current is 40A

Thoughts on whether or not the 4448PAE could run this motor???
Spec sheet says "100msec surge current (amps AC) Line-Line: 40".

I am not exactly sure what that means.....

Thanks!
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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017 #2
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    The surge current is the inrush when the motor starts from stall which is generally around 10× the load current, the duration of the inrush is 100  milli seconds or 0.1seccond. The inverter specs claim an inrush capability of 40A for 100msec at 240Vac, the motor rating is calculated at 230V so at 240V the current would be slightly lower, so technically it should work as long as there are no other loads on the inverter at the same time.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • Raj174
    Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 795 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017 #3
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         It means 40 amps AC at 240 volts for 1 tenth of a second, or about 9600 watts. The inverter also has a surge capacity of 8500 watts for 5 seconds. So if 40 amps can get it turing, then I would think that the 5 second surge capacity would bring it up to speed. However, this is right on the line of max capacity, so not a sure thing IMO. My OB 4000 watt Radian inverter can handle a 36 amp AC surge. That sounds close to proportional to your inverter and load.
    It's hard to say for sure. Maybe other members will have more experience with pumps.

    Rick  
    4480W PV, MNE175DR-TR, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 360AH nominal LiFePO4, Kohler Pro 5.2E genset.
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #4
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    Part of it also depends on the load on the motor... A fan or compressor with an unloader--Shorter starting surge. A compressor with a large (heavy) flywheel and/or no unloader--May be more difficult to start.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #5
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    @Wbuffetjr1 Here is some information that relates to your question about starting current.
    http://powertips-elec.blogspot.com/2010/11/motor-starting-and-running-currents-and.html
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • Wbuffetjr1
    Wbuffetjr1 Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭
    #6
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    Thanks fellas!

    The motor will be hooked up to a Gast 0740 rotary vane air compressor. The compressor will only be operating at ~70% of it's rated PSI.  I have no idea how to measure what kind of load that will put on the motor.
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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #7
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    The Gast 0740 is rated at 1/3 hp, with a maximum pressure of 10 psi, so not much for the motor, in fact the motor seems to be on the large end of the scale. Is this the correct compressor? See attached link.
    http://gastmfg.com/products/compressors-and-pumps/rotary-vanes-separate-drive/0740
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • jonr
    jonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,386 ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2017 #8
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    Some general suggestions:

    1) don't use a larger motor than needed (as mcgivor suggested)
    2) reduce the starting capacitor size if you don't need all of the available starting torque
    3) add a run capacitor to improve the power factor
    4) consider reducing starting torque needed (as Bill suggested).  This reduces the time (not peak amps) to start.
    5) consider a hard start add-on that will switch in extra capacitance while starting (ie, help with power factor during start)

    Baldor motors are nicely documented.

    I am available for custom hardware/firmware development

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  • Wbuffetjr1
    Wbuffetjr1 Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭
    #9
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    Sorry guys, I mistyped.  I have a Gast 0740 on a 1/3hp motor (EL3501).  The EL3510 is hooked up to a Gast 1550. 
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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #10
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    The 1550 is 3/4 hp, still low pressure at 15 psi max, a vane type compressor is probably not much of a load  at such low pressure and no large flywheels to get into motion so the start up current would probably be less than at 100% load.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • Wbuffetjr1
    Wbuffetjr1 Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭
    #11
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    That would be great! I won't even be running it at 15 PSI.  Probably 10-11 PSI maximum.
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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #12
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    In that case you might want to consider using a smaller motor, perhaps 3/4 hp, but in the overall picture, probably won't make much difference. 
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
    · Share on Twitter
  • Wbuffetjr1
    Wbuffetjr1 Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭
    #13
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    Unfortunately this 1HP motor is an extra I already have.  I would rather put it to use than keep it sitting around.

    Thanks for all the good info!
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  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #14
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    If that's the case use it, no sense in letting it go to waste, in the automotive field the same pickup, one with a V6 and another with a V8, the V8 is more efficient, because it doesn't have to work as hard, FWIW.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
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  • Wbuffetjr1
    Wbuffetjr1 Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭
    #15
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    10-4.

    With that in mind it does concern me to possibly be bumping up against the limits of the surge current for the inverter.  Should I be worried? 
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  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    #16
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    If you already have the motor I would go ahead and just try it (assuming an inverter outage won't bring your life support system down).

    If the surge is too long and/or too big, the inverter should just fault and likely need a manual reset. Further assuming wiring etc is properly sized for the inverter, the magic smoke should stay where it belongs.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
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  • Dave Angelini
    Dave Angelini Solar Expert Posts: 6,746 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    #17
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    The battery and its connection is almost as important as the ability for the inverter to surge. Too small in AH of battery, cable, and connection quality need to be considered.
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Nevada mountain area
       htps://offgridsolar1.com/
    E-mail offgridsolar@sti.net

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  • Wbuffetjr1
    Wbuffetjr1 Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭
    #18
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    3 strings of golf cart batteries (my sacrificial set) to start out.  I understand 3 strings isn't the greatest, but I want to start with a cheap set and want more AH than two strings provide. Hoping they last 2-3 years at least. 

    Using 2/0 welding cable for all the battery cables. 


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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #19
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    What is the battery bank voltage? (12/24/etc.).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Wbuffetjr1
    Wbuffetjr1 Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭
    #20
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    48v
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  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
    #21
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    Assuming 200 AH batteries (3x parallel strings) gives you 600 AH @ 48 volts... That is good for a ~6 kWatt inverter with 12 kW surge (assuming inverter handles that output).
    • 6,000 Watt * 1/0.85 inverter eff * 1/48 volts * 1.25 NEC derating = 184 amp minimum (185/200 amp) recommended DC branch circuit+breaker rating.
    • 4,400 Watt * 1/0.85 inverter eff * 1/48 volts * 1.25 NEC derating = 135 amp minimum recommended DC branch circuit+breaker rating.
    Your battery bank should be fine (checking/logging specific gravity and voltage per battery?).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
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  • Wbuffetjr1
    Wbuffetjr1 Registered Users Posts: 92 ✭✭
    edited April 2017 #22
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    Thank you BB!

    I am going to be checking and logging as much as I can.  Unfortunately, this system will be at 10,000' at a remote cabin in CO.  I am only there ~7 weeks out of the year currently. In GA the rest of the time.  Will be moving out there to the base of the mountain the cabin is on in three years. In the meantime, I can get a buddy up there periodically to check on things or add water as needed. 

    I will be using this system for very small, intermittent loads in the cabin while we are out there.  LED lights, ceiling fans, flat screen TV, cpap, etc. The rest of the year, the system will run aeration for an 8 acre lake. I will run the 1hp unit during the summers and as far into the fall as I can and then have a friend switch over to the 1/3hp unit during the winter to keep holes open in the ice.


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