Going off grid

1356

Comments

  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    AS BB said, but only start with 4 GC 6V cells.. that would give you max ~ 2.5 kWhr of power to 50% SoC per day and panel up to get them charged and put the rest up when you move in... In reality using the gen during the day to charge (BULK) and power big items,  the rest in the evening/night would not be too a heavy strain on those batteries.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • wellbuilt
    wellbuilt Solar Expert Posts: 763 ✭✭✭✭
    o k,  do you guys think I could stick with the EVO2224  and  just run off 4 gc215 battery's at 24 volts? 
     I could just replace the battery bank next year , and buy a larger bank when I have more $$ .
    could you help me with genarator size ? 
     I'm a little worried about running  dirty genarator power thru the inverter and burning up things in the house . 
     I have a 4750 watt champion genarator for now . 
     I will say it starts up on 1 pull every time but won't hold voltage much past 3000 watts 
     It has about 500 hrs now.
      The champion is a deal at 300 $. And change .
    Out back  flex power one  with out back 3648 inverter fm80 charge controler  flex net  mate 16 gc215 battery’s 4425 Watts solar .
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    wellbuilt said:
    1)   o k,  do you guys think I could stick with the EVO2224  and  just run off 4 gc215 battery's at 24 volts? 
     I could just replace the battery bank next year , and buy a larger bank when I have more $$ .
    2)  could you help me with genarator size ? 
     I'm a little worried about running  dirty genarator power thru the inverter and burning up things in the house . 
     I have a 4750 watt champion genarator for now . 
     I will say it starts up on 1 pull every time but won't hold voltage much past 3000 watts 
     It has about 500 hrs now.
      The champion is a deal at 300 $. And change .
    1) YES, this will give you a year to try to kill them,,, (wink)
    2) I use my 1000i w Honda (~800W) for most things but it will not push my 1500 W charger, but the 2000 W gen does...   Costco carries a new Inverter type Champion 2000W / 1600w ...  if they are as good as the others, motor wise, may be an option.. did not see any reviews, must be quite new.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • wellbuilt
    wellbuilt Solar Expert Posts: 763 ✭✭✭✭
    I guess I will stick with th 2224 inverter charger , and run with the gc battery's 
     I need to have a large enough genarator to run loads in the house and charge at the same time..
     the inverter charger can't invert and charge at the same time. 
    Out back  flex power one  with out back 3648 inverter fm80 charge controler  flex net  mate 16 gc215 battery’s 4425 Watts solar .
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    wellbuilt said:
    I guess I will stick with th 2224 inverter charger , and run with the gc battery's 
     I need to have a large enough genarator to run loads in the house and charge at the same time..
     the inverter charger can't invert and charge at the same time. 

    That sounds odd, it will 'pass through' though won't it? so you don't change connections, but use the energy from the genny through the same connections?
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    And able to leap over TALL buildings in a single bound!

    https://www.samlexamerica.com/products/ProductDetail.aspx?pid=574

    Sounds pretty solid to me.
      It intelligently integrates a 70 Amp 4 stage Battery Charger and a 40 Amp Transfer Relay

    AC Inputs

    • Two separate AC inputs – one for grid (priority #1), one for generator (priority #2), connect simultaneously, no need to reconfigure when different power sources are available.
    • Generator Input is specifically designed to have more tolerance for wave form distortion, prevents unnecessary “rejection of AC input and switch to inverter” by tolerating distorted wave forms that can be produced by gritty generators
    • Each AC input is programmable for voltage and frequency. User determines what the min and max thresholds are to switch from Grid or Generator to Inverter.
    • Generator start can be initiated by “Status Relay” contact, can be programmed to activate when grid is lost.




     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • WaterWheel
    WaterWheel Registered Users Posts: 375 ✭✭✭

    Westbranch,     That is a very good article that covers a lot of ground.       I've been a strong proponent for faising the prime rate for years and am strongly against QE.

    Thanks for posting the link.

    Conext XW6848 with PDP, SCP, 80/600 controller, 60/150 controller and Conext battery monitor

    21 SW280 panels on Schletter ground mount

    48v Rolls 6CS 27P

  • wellbuilt
    wellbuilt Solar Expert Posts: 763 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes it passes thru but dirty power goes to the house and blows stuff up . 
    At home , I lost a stove computer and frig all on the same day , my volts where way down because some one was twisting the knobs and I did not check , the Genny blows up cell phones and screw gun battery chargers .
     I have a honda water cooled 6500 inverter genarator for 1200 bucks from a dealer .
    it was a trade in last year . But it will burn more fuel .
     The champion is doing what I need now .
     The champion 2000 watt has been around for a few years , they look ok , but every thing I do needs more power .


    Out back  flex power one  with out back 3648 inverter fm80 charge controler  flex net  mate 16 gc215 battery’s 4425 Watts solar .
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    Why haven't you sold the one that blows things up, (?) it has already cost you too much, way more than running the Honda 6500i... 
    I use the most suitable one for the job I want to do, 2 to do most work and the 3 rd for BIG jobs - and as a backup now -... hth as I can't think of any other choices to minimize your short and long term costs.... and headaches.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • oil pan 4
    oil pan 4 Solar Expert Posts: 767 ✭✭✭✭
    I looked into getting an inverter type alternator backup generator.
    I found that at half load and greater they are dead even in fuel consumption.
    Then the inverter only has a good fuel economy advantage if you are running it at 1/4 capacity or less compared to running a directdrive generator of the same capacity.

    Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.

    Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.

  • wellbuilt
    wellbuilt Solar Expert Posts: 763 ✭✭✭✭
    The genarator that  blue up  the house is the best unit I have. It a old Kawasaki  3200 3500 I  Believe  1987 vintage 
     Some onemoved the voltage adjust ment tha caused the problem . 
     But some things don't run on a Chinese genarator,  like tool chargers  cell phones .
     Insurance payed for the appliances . 
     The problem with the Honda is I don't owne it yet , it's been sitting at the dealer for 11/2 years . 
     It was a pull and replace with a propain  unit . 
     I was looking att a year ago  but the battery was dead  and the guys did not have time to get it running . 
     It was 2500 then now 1250 . 
     I mite offer 1000 if I could here it running . 
     It was a 4500 dollar unit 6 years ago .
      
    Out back  flex power one  with out back 3648 inverter fm80 charge controler  flex net  mate 16 gc215 battery’s 4425 Watts solar .
  • wellbuilt
    wellbuilt Solar Expert Posts: 763 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes it passes thru but dirty power goes to the house and blows stuff up . 
    At home , I lost a stove computer and frig all on the same day , my volts where way down because some one was twisting the knobs and I did not check , the Genny blows up cell phones and screw gun battery chargers .
     I have a honda water cooled 6500 inverter genarator for 1200 bucks from a dealer .
    it was a trade in last year . But it will burn more fuel .
     The champion is doing what I need now .
     The champion 2000 watt has been around for a few years , they look ok , but every thing I do need more power .

    Out back  flex power one  with out back 3648 inverter fm80 charge controler  flex net  mate 16 gc215 battery’s 4425 Watts solar .
  • wellbuilt
    wellbuilt Solar Expert Posts: 763 ✭✭✭✭
    Hi all I have more questions . 
     With a evo2224 samalex inverter what would be the   Optima  size  genarator in watts I was thinking 4500 watt would work . 
     As far as solar panels go , is there any difference in watts 250. 295 305 ? 
     Mono or poly type ? 
     
     
    Out back  flex power one  with out back 3648 inverter fm80 charge controler  flex net  mate 16 gc215 battery’s 4425 Watts solar .
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    wellbuilt said:

    Hi all I have more questions . 
     With a evo2224 samalex inverter what would be the   Optima  size  genarator in watts I was thinking 4500 watt would work . 
     As far as solar panels go , is there any difference in watts 250. 295 305 ? 
     Mono or poly type ? 
     
     
    The 4500w generator is suitable at double the maximum output/charging for the evo 2224, generally the requirements are to size the generator at 150% maximum output of the inverter / charger, at least.

    The panels are rated by watts 250 295 and 300W respectively, 60 cell are used with MPPT CC, 72 cell, usually in > 300W, are used with PWM CC and tend to be more expensive.
    Mono are reputed to be more efficient, produce slightly more power in low sunlight conditions than poly, but at a higher price. The difference however is minimal, choice comes down to having space as mono require a smaller footprint for the same power, otherwise the difference is negligible.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • wellbuilt
    wellbuilt Solar Expert Posts: 763 ✭✭✭✭
    I see a lot of people have more then 1 power system ? 
     How do they use the systems? 
     I was thinking I would have 1 main system to run the house for day time
      1 smaller system to run my frig tv and a few lights over night . 
       1 solar only system to pump water into a tank . 
       And maybe a smaller system to run 24/7 when we are not there to open the garage door keep some lights on out side and  maybe run a alarm /  surveillance cameras . 
     Or am I better off sticking with 1 system .
    Out back  flex power one  with out back 3648 inverter fm80 charge controler  flex net  mate 16 gc215 battery’s 4425 Watts solar .
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Multiple system don't make sense to me, with 2 exceptions, if there is distance involved, the well pump or barn is just a long ways to run AC out to them... Or you use 12 or 24 volt for a few things, though even then I would look into a converter.

    It's much easier to stay on top of 1 system.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I run two systems, and may add a third for remote monitoring etc. There are pros and cons to doing this.

    The main cons are added initial cost, and complexity.

    The main pros are inverter efficiency, and redundancy for when something fails.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • wellbuilt
    wellbuilt Solar Expert Posts: 763 ✭✭✭✭
    how far from the house should I have my genarator ? 
     I don't really want a small box sitting up next to the house, I was thinking 40 feet from the house 70' from the power panel .
     I was thinking  the battery's inverter charge controler  would sit in the garage with my service and panel. 
     The genarator s would be in a shed 40' from the house . 
     I'm thinking the shed will be 6x10 with a 6' wide door . 
      I would like to be able to stand in side and fool with the unit if it doesn't start ,or needs service . 
     It's very   Windy and cold  up there. 
     I've been dragging the genarator out side when we use it . 
    Out back  flex power one  with out back 3648 inverter fm80 charge controler  flex net  mate 16 gc215 battery’s 4425 Watts solar .
  • Estragon
    Estragon Registered Users Posts: 4,496 ✭✭✭✭✭
    At my cabin the previous owners put the genshed several hundred feet from the cabin down a steep gully near shoreline. It kept the noise down, but it was a pain to get at, trees would fall on the overhead wire, and I wasn't wild about the idea of having 200gals of diesel in a tank near the lake.

    Ended up building a shed next to the cabin out of 6x6 timbers with exhaust run in a trench out a bit so prevailing wind carries it away. The heavy timbers make it pretty quiet.

    You can go pretty far with 120 or 240vac if you want to. Mine was wired with 8ga aluminum I think.
    Off-grid.  
    Main daytime system ~4kw panels into 2xMNClassic150 370ah 48v bank 2xOutback 3548 inverter 120v + 240v autotransformer
    Night system ~1kw panels into 1xMNClassic150 700ah 12v bank morningstar 300w inverter
  • wellbuilt
    wellbuilt Solar Expert Posts: 763 ✭✭✭✭
     I never even considered running the wire overhead . 
      The pipes exhaust system sounds good though . 
    Out back  flex power one  with out back 3648 inverter fm80 charge controler  flex net  mate 16 gc215 battery’s 4425 Watts solar .
  • wellbuilt
    wellbuilt Solar Expert Posts: 763 ✭✭✭✭
    Thank you to every on for helping out . 
    John
    Out back  flex power one  with out back 3648 inverter fm80 charge controler  flex net  mate 16 gc215 battery’s 4425 Watts solar .
  • 706jim
    706jim Solar Expert Posts: 514 ✭✭✭✭
    Reading here how a small gen won't run an inverter charger. I use a Honda EU1000 and use it to charge my battery bank through an old DR1524 inverter charger. This wonderful old unit has a dial to adjust the charger current allowing me to use inverter current at the same time the battery charges. Both at modest amounts of course.
    Island cottage solar system with 2500 watts of panels, 1kw facing southeast 1.3kw facing southwest 170watt ancient Arco's facing south. All panels in parallel for a 24 volt system. Trace DR1524 MSW inverter, Outback Flexmax 80 MPPT charge controller 8 Trojan L16's. Insignia 11.5 cubic foot electric fridge. My 30th year.
  • oil pan 4
    oil pan 4 Solar Expert Posts: 767 ✭✭✭✭
    An automotive alternator rigged to generate the required voltage would be more efficient.
    The alternator generates the power you need in 3 phase which takes 11% less engine torque compared to generating that much power in single phase. The alternator only produces the required voltage so no stepping down the voltage.
    The only disadvantages are because of the low voltage DC they generate, so they have to be near the battery bank and they can only supply DC power.
    When you generate 120v single phase power it has to be stepped down, rectified to DC and filtered to smooth out the rectification ripples. Another roughly 10% loss in efficiency.

    Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.

    Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.

  • jonr
    jonr Solar Expert Posts: 1,386 ✭✭✭✭
    edited March 2017 #85
    My understanding is that the Honda inverter generators are also 3 phase.  And (I think), permanent magnet (no excitation losses).  So who knows how the final gallons/kwh would compare.

    I am available for custom hardware/firmware development

  • wellbuilt
    wellbuilt Solar Expert Posts: 763 ✭✭✭✭
    Jim I think most inverters will adjust charger out put for a smaller genarator or less out put for less ah battery's. 
     As far as I know (witch is not very much) the genarator runs the loads wile the charger is charging the battery bank  ,if that made sense .my inverter is running backwards charging then runs forward to invert . 
        Just when I think I've figured something out I  I realize I don't know anything .
    Out back  flex power one  with out back 3648 inverter fm80 charge controler  flex net  mate 16 gc215 battery’s 4425 Watts solar .
  • wellbuilt
    wellbuilt Solar Expert Posts: 763 ✭✭✭✭
    Oil pan , 
    i was thinking about building a battery charger, I have all the parts sitting here if it would work . 
     I have 2 Bomar 60 amp marine Altanators for 12 volt charging , a ample power marine regulater with 3 stage smart charging 6.5 Honda motor  and a 15000sf weld shop full of welders that work for beer .
     The regulator has two leads to run 2 alternators off one motor. 
     I don't rember if the regulator will charge at 24v or only 12 v 
     what do you think ?
    Out back  flex power one  with out back 3648 inverter fm80 charge controler  flex net  mate 16 gc215 battery’s 4425 Watts solar .
  • oil pan 4
    oil pan 4 Solar Expert Posts: 767 ✭✭✭✭
    > @jonr said:
    > My understanding is that the Honda inverter generators are also 3 phase.  And (I think), permanent magnet (no excitation losses).  So who knows how the final gallons/kwh would compare.

    Fuel consumption versus load charts for these generators have been published.
    I don't believe that they are permanent magnet. If they were then there would be extremely high eddy losses in the steel stator core and it would be more difficult to drive the engine at no and low load because the stator would be trying to develop full voltage that isn't going anywhere.

    Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.

    Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.

  • oil pan 4
    oil pan 4 Solar Expert Posts: 767 ✭✭✭✭
    > @wellbuilt said:
    > Oil pan , 
    > i was thinking about building a battery charger, I have all the parts sitting here if it would work . 
    >  I have 2 Bomar 60 amp marine Altanators for 12 volt charging , a ample power marine regulater with 3 stage smart charging 6.5 Honda motor  and a 15000sf weld shop full of welders that work for beer .
    >  The regulator has two leads to run 2 alternators off one motor. 
    >  I don't rember if the regulator will charge at 24v or only 12 v 
    >  what do you think ?

    Those should work.
    I have a 5.5hp Honda gx200 motor that drives my alternator welder. It will produce around 30 volts up to 100 amps while welding.
    So the motor should be able to give you around 100 amps of 24v charging, no problem.
    I just don't know anything about those particular alternators.
    I know marine stuff favors 24v.
    If you were going to use GM's ACdelco alternators or if that marine alternator is a clone I know the 10SI, 12SI and CS series alternators can be sold in 12 or 24v versions. Or converted from one voltage to the other if you know how to change a voltage regulator.
    Just make sure you connect the voltage sense wire to the battery, not to the alternator.
    This makes sure you get the correct voltage delivered to the battery, compensating for any voltage loss through the wires.

    Solar hybrid gasoline generator, 7kw gas, 180 watts of solar, Morningstar 15 amp MPPT, group 31 AGM, 900 watt kisae inverter.

    Solar roof top GMC suburban, a normal 3/4 ton suburban with 180 watts of panels on the roof and 10 amp genasun MPPT, 2000w samlex pure sine wave inverter, 12v gast and ARB air compressors.

  • wellbuilt
    wellbuilt Solar Expert Posts: 763 ✭✭✭✭
    Out back  flex power one  with out back 3648 inverter fm80 charge controler  flex net  mate 16 gc215 battery’s 4425 Watts solar .
  • wellbuilt
    wellbuilt Solar Expert Posts: 763 ✭✭✭✭
    I have a unit like this one only older it's 12 volt I think . 
     They make a 24 volt Version , will have to dig it up in the am .
      I think the bomar  alternators are very costly . 
     I think the regulator in the pic will take 2 12vvolt units and bump them to 24 volt charging current 

    Out back  flex power one  with out back 3648 inverter fm80 charge controler  flex net  mate 16 gc215 battery’s 4425 Watts solar .