Have Lithium Ion batteries come of age for off-grid systems?

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Comments

  • jimmyazjimmyaz Posts: 114Registered Users ✭✭
    edited February 2017 #62
    karrak said:
    jimmyaz said:
    With the LFP nowadays..... Which supplier is the trusted one?  Or do they even know what they are selling is quality battery or just another cheaply made one.   I'm not trying to be sarcastic, I am asking if I were to buy LFP, where would I buy it from if I am in North America?
    Voltronix http://voltronixusa.com/products/ is selling the Winston batteries under their name in the US, these are the batteries I use.

    Simon
    Thanks.

    Is your system 8cells of 3.2v to make up to 24v system?  So if I want 48V then best option is 16s?  Am I right that all of these LFP on the market are made in China?



  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,021Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    South Korea is where mine are made. :)
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • jimmyazjimmyaz Posts: 114Registered Users ✭✭
    South Korea is where mine are made. :)
    Is that suppose to imply it's better?  Made by Samsung?  :smile:

    I know,. nowadays it's hard to find real quality stuff unless you got deep pocket.  I guess there's always risk in everything.  But I used to sell LiPo and deal with many Chinese supplier.... so I know what their quality is and there's no such thing as Quality Check.  :smiley:
  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,021Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    That is suppose to answer your question that not everything is made is China!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • jimmyazjimmyaz Posts: 114Registered Users ✭✭
    That is suppose to answer your question that not everything is made is China!
    Then what cell are you using and where did you buy it from?  thanks
  • westbranchwestbranch Posts: 5,090Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    karrak said:
    Voltronix http://voltronixusa.com/products/ is selling the Winston batteries under their name in the US, these are the batteries I use.

    Simon

    Simon, those appear to be LYP batteries not LFP

     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • karrakkarrak Posts: 307Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    jimmyaz said:
    Is your system 8cells of 3.2v to make up to 24v system?  So if I want 48V then best option is 16s?  Am I right that all of these LFP on the market are made in China?

    Yes you are correct, my system is 8 cells, 48V is 16 cells. I think that the majority of large prismatic format LFP cells are made in China. They are not as good as LFP cells made by A123 or other high end manufacturers but are just fine for off grid use.

    What are you thinking of using the battery for?

    Simon


    Off-Grid with LFP (LiFePO4) battery, battery Installed April 2013
    32x90Ah Winston cells 4p8s (24V), 4kW Latronics Inverter, 1160W of Solar Panels, homemade MPPT controller
    Homemade BMS https://github.com/simat/BatteryMonitor
     

  • karrakkarrak Posts: 307Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Simon, those appear to be LYP batteries not LFP

    The Y stands for Yttrium. Winston puts small amounts of Yttrium in their LFP cells to supposedly improve their performance.
    Simon
    Off-Grid with LFP (LiFePO4) battery, battery Installed April 2013
    32x90Ah Winston cells 4p8s (24V), 4kW Latronics Inverter, 1160W of Solar Panels, homemade MPPT controller
    Homemade BMS https://github.com/simat/BatteryMonitor
     

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,021Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    karrak said:
    jimmyaz said:
    Is your system 8cells of 3.2v to make up to 24v system?  So if I want 48V then best option is 16s?  Am I right that all of these LFP on the market are made in China?

    Yes you are correct, my system is 8 cells, 48V is 16 cells. I think that the majority of large prismatic format LFP cells are made in China. They are not as good as LFP cells made by A123 or other high end manufacturers but are just fine for off grid use.

    What are you thinking of using the battery for?

    Simon



    Simon,  I think they are maybe fine for an advanced user like you but totally disagree that one would want anything short of the best offgrid. We are a small group living successfully offgrid. The transition from abundant power to lights out is something we just cant have and safety is right up there!
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

  • jimmyazjimmyaz Posts: 114Registered Users ✭✭
    edited February 2017 #71
    Simon,  I think they are maybe fine for an advanced user like you but totally disagree that one would want anything short of the best offgrid. We are a small group living successfully offgrid. The transition from abundant power to lights out is something we just cant have and safety is right up there!
    I think I can understand why many of you suggest people to stay away from Lithium.  But teenagers driving and texting at the same time is dangerous too and really there's no way to stop it or "you" trying to avoid it, it's happening.  I have been using Lithium Polymer for 15 years in all my RC toys and they are not the puny little packs in these micro quadcopter, I am using 12-16s 10ah Lithium Polymer, 20ah packs for my big helicopters.  So I know what they are capable of and how they response to overcharge/discharge.

    karrak said:
    jimmyaz said:
    Is your system 8cells of 3.2v to make up to 24v system?  So if I want 48V then best option is 16s?  Am I right that all of these LFP on the market are made in China?

    Yes you are correct, my system is 8 cells, 48V is 16 cells. I think that the majority of large prismatic format LFP cells are made in China. They are not as good as LFP cells made by A123 or other high end manufacturers but are just fine for off grid use.

    What are you thinking of using the battery for?

    Simon



    Currently my setup is completely independent and not tie to the grid.  But I have decided to install a Hybrid Inverter so I can run more load through out my house and the concept is to "Self Consumption and NOT feeding grid" all solar produce and maybe a small amount of battery usage during heavy load.  Obviously do not want to constantly use the battery, but I want to be able to use some so that when solar is over producing, it can store into the battery and turn around I will used it when needed.

    During winter time here in Arizona, my entire home only uses 11-15kw a day and during Summer time, 50-80kw a day.  My current array is 2.6kw.  Usable sun here in Winter = 5-6hours, Summer =7-8hours.  So I want to be able to offset as much as possible.

    There may be a problem, because all Hybrid Inverter running in AC support mode would require to pull the first 500watts from the Grid before it invert DC.  Everything in my house is super efficient therefor most of the time all the small load only pull 300-400 watts.  So it will not go over that threshold. 




  • westbranchwestbranch Posts: 5,090Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    Simon, I am waiting for more info to come back  from them, but here is what he had to say so far

    We have the LYP which is very similar to the LFP.  ....  What is your application?

     Brennan Patrick Beach

    CEO
    Voltronix® USA, Inc.
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Raj174Raj174 Posts: 644Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2017 #73
    @ westbranch,

    LYP is a LFP cell that has the rare earth element yttrium added at the cathode to enhance charge and discharge of the battery at much lower temperatures. The specs indicate -45C.

    This is from an EV forum.

    default Re: whats the difference between lifepo4 and lifeypo4

    Hello Subevo,

    the main difference between lifepo4 and lifeypo4 is additional Yttrium at the cathode of the lifeypo4 cells to speed up electron transfer especially at cold temperatures. They are the better choice, especially for electric car usage. I received my cells in spring of last year, my car was one of the first conversions done with Yttrium cells. While driving through the whole last winter here in Germany I´m very surprised of these cells providing high amps at cold, freezing temperatures. I was able to drive my car at the coldest days. Without Yttrium this should not be possible regarding the experience of others. The voltage sag under freezing point is too much with the old cells. Yttriums sag a little bit, but you´re able to drive and receive the whole stored energy. Believe me, they´re really good.

    This is a link to the Winston battery specs. Notice the low charge and discharge temp and also extended life cycle.

    http://en.winston-battery.com/index.php/products/power-battery/item/wb-lyp200ahab?category_id=176

    Rick


    3600W PV, MNE175DR-TR epanel modified, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 54.4V 207AH LiFePO4 no BMS, 4500W genset.
  • karrakkarrak Posts: 307Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2017 #74
    I think they are maybe fine for an advanced user like you but totally disagree that one would want anything short of the best offgrid. We are a small group living successfully offgrid. The transition from abundant power to lights out is something we just cant have and safety is right up there!
    How do you define "best", I would think "fit for purpose" is a more useful term. Sure, some people want an off-grid system where they can use as much power as they want regardless how much sunshine/wind/hydro there has been, don't want to be bothered with doing any monitoring and will have a nervous breakdown if they loose power. For them a very expensive, overspeced system with multiple backups maybe appropriate. The extra complexity in these systems can actually make them less reliable. There are others that are quite happy to have a simpler system and have some sort of contingency plan if they loose power. I have no backup generator and the lights/fridge have not gone off for the nearly four years that my LFP battery has been installed.

    There are well over ten DIY off-grid systems that I am aware of that use the cheaper Chinese prismatic batteries and not one has stopped working due to a battery failure.

    I totally agree that safety is a paramount consideration. IMO a simple off-grid system that is properly designed with a BMS of some sort that is being monitored and serviced on a regular basis by someone that understands the system could be safer than some complex branded "black box" which might have some engineering defects/shortcomings in it or might have been installed incorrectly or both. I suppose with the black box at least you have someone to sue if something does go wrong.

    Simon
    Off-Grid with LFP (LiFePO4) battery, battery Installed April 2013
    32x90Ah Winston cells 4p8s (24V), 4kW Latronics Inverter, 1160W of Solar Panels, homemade MPPT controller
    Homemade BMS https://github.com/simat/BatteryMonitor
     

  • karrakkarrak Posts: 307Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    jimmyaz said:
    Currently my setup is completely independent and not tie to the grid.  But I have decided to install a Hybrid Inverter so I can run more load through out my house and the concept is to "Self Consumption and NOT feeding grid" all solar produce and maybe a small amount of battery usage during heavy load.  Obviously do not want to constantly use the battery, but I want to be able to use some so that when solar is over producing, it can store into the battery and turn around I will used it when needed.

    During winter time here in Arizona, my entire home only uses 11-15kw a day and during Summer time, 50-80kw a day.  My current array is 2.6kw.  Usable sun here in Winter = 5-6hours, Summer =7-8hours.  So I want to be able to offset as much as possible.

    There may be a problem, because all Hybrid Inverter running in AC support mode would require to pull the first 500watts from the Grid before it invert DC.  Everything in my house is super efficient therefor most of the time all the small load only pull 300-400 watts.  So it will not go over that threshold. 

    Have you looked at the economic and environmental costs and benefits of running a battery rather than just running a grid tied system?

    Simon
    Off-Grid with LFP (LiFePO4) battery, battery Installed April 2013
    32x90Ah Winston cells 4p8s (24V), 4kW Latronics Inverter, 1160W of Solar Panels, homemade MPPT controller
    Homemade BMS https://github.com/simat/BatteryMonitor
     

  • Dave AngeliniDave Angelini Posts: 4,021Solar Expert ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2017 #76
    karrak said:
    I think they are maybe fine for an advanced user like you but totally disagree that one would want anything short of the best offgrid. We are a small group living successfully offgrid. The transition from abundant power to lights out is something we just cant have and safety is right up there!
    How do you define "best", I would think "fit for purpose" is a more useful term. Sure, some people want an off-grid system where they can use as much power as they want regardless how much sunshine/wind/hydro there has been, don't want to be bothered with doing any monitoring and will have a nervous breakdown if they loose power. For them a very expensive, overspeced system with multiple backups maybe appropriate. The extra complexity in these systems can actually make them less reliable. There are others that are quite happy to have a simpler system and have some sort of contingency plan if they loose power. I have no backup generator and the lights/fridge have not gone off for the nearly four years that my LFP battery has been installed.

    There are well over ten DIY off-grid systems that I am aware of that use the cheaper Chinese prismatic batteries and not one has stopped working due to a battery failure.

    I totally agree that safety is a paramount consideration. IMO a simple off-grid system that is properly designed with a BMS of some sort that is being monitored and serviced on a regular basis by someone that understands the system could be safer than some complex branded "black box" which might have some engineering defects/shortcomings in it or might have been installed incorrectly or both. I suppose with the black box at least you have someone to sue if something does go wrong.

    Simon
    I disagree because I own a business and as you say the users are all different but safety is a paramount choice I have to make for my clients.  The screen shot is at a minimum of what I want in highlite. I should be able to ID what I am testing very soon.

    Power is just power and there are many ways to make it happen. We go where the power lines don't!
    We agree on that part!

    Less is more is great also up to a point where the inverter power bridge shorts, a charge controller goes into runaway or a BMS defect . All of these devices need to be watched and not because of a law suit, in systems I am involved with. It is a heart beat to me.
    My choice right?
    "we go where power lines don't" Sierra Mountains near Mariposa/Yosemite CA
     http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
    E-mail [email protected]

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