TS-MPPT-60 Vmin is stuck at -0.0V

stranger
stranger Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
edited February 2017 in Solar Beginners Corner #1
Howdy,

I have been living off-grid with solar power for over four years. I recently upgraded from a TS-45 to a TS-MPPT-60, and I have both RTS and voltage sense wires installed. On day two or three, I woke up to an Alarm 21. Research indicated that 21 reveals a data write failure that is due to a firmware bug and that a firmware update should fix it.

After updating the firmware for A, B and TS-M-2, absorption wasn't ending after 180+30 minutes (battery Vmin was 12.2 the night before). I did see FLOAT on the first day, before the firmware update. I searched high and low for information about a fix. The only suggestion that I found that might be applicable was a possible battery short. I measured the two GC-15s and found the difference to be only 1.4%, which seems to be okay.

Something made me remember that I had seen a Vmin of 0.0V, and I looked at the meter again. Sure enough, the Status screen shows Vmin at -0.0V, but the log shows a valid voltage for Vmin (12.3V last night). Of course, if the voltage falls below 11.5V (default), float is cancelled for the next cycle. That seems to explain what is happening, but not why it is happening.

I considered that after the battery was disconnected for the firmware update and on the following days to check the wiring because of the indefinite absorption cycles that a reset might not have a valid voltage until after the first full cycle. Now that the first night-day-night cycle has passed, the Vmin on the Status screen is still -0.0V.

There are no Faults or Alarms. Everything looks to be wired correctly. Everything else, other than a weak four-year-old battery, is functioning well. What is going on here?

Thanks

Comments

  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Question : Did you connect the battery first then solar, or the solar first, battery should always be first.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • stranger
    stranger Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    mcgivor said:
    Question : Did you connect the battery first then solar, or the solar first, battery should always be first.

    Thank you. Yes, the battery was connected first and then the solar. Disconnection has always been solar first and then the battery.
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    If you go into logged data, is the minimum voltage reading for today and previous days correct and if you toggle back do you come to a day with a zero reading, say -12 days..I have a similar anomaly where the Ah shows 3650Ah......impossible.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • stranger
    stranger Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    edited February 2017 #5
    mcgivor said:
    Question : Did you connect the battery first then solar, or the solar first, battery should always be first.
    Another possible clue? Updates for firmwares A and B each succeeded on the first try. The firmware update for the TS-M-2 failed the first three times. Aha! Maybe flashing them again will fix it.

    I will know tomorrow.
  • stranger
    stranger Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    mcgivor said:
    If you go into logged data, is the minimum voltage reading for today and previous days correct and if you toggle back do you come to a day with a zero reading, say -12 days..I have a similar anomaly where the Ah shows 3650Ah......impossible.

    I SAW A SIMILAR IMPOSSIBLE NUMBER FOR AH! I think it was in the history with the original firmware.

    Yes, as I mentioned in OP, the log data looks good.


    After reflashing the firmware, it still shows the same symptom. I have to doubt that a full cycle will correct it. The old firmware worked fine for absorption-float transition. I suspect either another firmware bug or a corrupt download. Corrupt download seems like a real longshot, because everything else works, and because I have a lot of experience with hardware and software programming, it seems very unlikely. I'll try downloading the firmware again to rule that out.


  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 2017 #7
    You got me curious, went and checked what my low voltage says and it is 12.9V, only been connected to a 24V system which has never been that low, can gaurentee that. Otherwise everything works fine, the 3650ah day will eventually be overwritten but the low voltage must be a historic low, like it was powered up before or something The unit was new out of the box, now in service for 34 days, so who knows.....my second, much older, one has no such oddball readings, will send a query to Morningstar tech support and see what they say.

    Edit. Found another weird one, in diagnostics scroll down to where it says total hours, mine says 66198 hours, that's 7.5 yeary, been in service 816 hours and was manufactured less than 7.5 years ago ?????
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • stranger
    stranger Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    > @mcgivor said:
    > You got me curious, went and checked what my low voltage says and it is 12.9V, only been connected to a 24V system which has never been that low, can gaurentee that. Otherwise everything works fine, the 3650ah day will eventually be overwritten but the low voltage must be a historic low, like it was powered up before or something The unit was new out of the box, now in service for 34 days, so who knows.....my second, much older, one has no such oddball readings, will send a query to Morningstar tech support and see what they say.
    >
    > Edit. Found another weird one, in diagnostics scroll down to where it says total hours, mine says 66198 hours, that's 7.5 yeary, been in service 816 hours and was manufactured less than 7.5 years ago ?????

    The firmware is atrocious. I updated the firmware to fix one problem, and the update created a bigger problem. I just spent $490 for the controller and $86 for the meter, and it doesn't work. I am not pleased. I'll have to wait until Monday to deal with it.
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Morningstar has a reputation for being very reliable, we'll made and somewhat simple, kind of like Toyota's reputation, every now and then  however there is a lemon, tech support is very good in helping resolve problems. Despite the anomalies my unit works perfectly and I have sent a query regarding both our observations. Personally I have not done anything with firmware updates, but am confident with the product, once you get it working I'm sure you'll be happy with it. 

    My next project will use a Schneider 60-150 mppt only because of availability here in Thailand, it is also significantly cheaper here, otherwise would have gone Morningstar again.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Having Schneider, Morningstar and MidnightSolar gear, and having done firmware updates on all, Morningstar wins hands down.  It boils down to the instructions work.  Just follow the instructions, don't "improve" don't cut corners, wait the five minutes, use the right cable and it's golden.
    Even Schneider's video on how to do firmware update leaves out a step that bricks the Combox.  Midnight has 11 pages of exacting serial port configurations and mucking about in the computer, and then you hook up to the $600 controller and hope it's not getting bricked,
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • stranger
    stranger Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    > @mcgivor said:
    > Morningstar has a reputation for being very reliable, we'll made and somewhat simple, kind of like Toyota's reputation, every now and then  however there is a lemon, tech support is very good in helping resolve problems. Despite the anomalies my unit works perfectly and I have sent a query regarding both our observations. Personally I have not done anything with firmware updates, but am confident with the product, once you get it working I'm sure you'll be happy with it. 
    >
    > My next project will use a Schneider 60-150 mppt only because of availability here in Thailand, it is also significantly cheaper here, otherwise would have gone Morningstar again.

    Thanks. I have been satisfied with Morningstar. I started with the TS-45, though I knew the output would be on the low side at about 5% after derating. My battery bank was abused and undercharged during winter. I've read that the first battery is usually a challenge. I guess I learned my lesson there.

    I considered Outback and Midnite Solar. I decided to stick with Morningstar. I'm impressed with the output. I'm sure I'll figure it out.
  • stranger
    stranger Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    edited February 2017 #12
    > @mike95490 said:
    > Having Schneider, Morningstar and MidnightSolar gear, and having done firmware updates on all, Morningstar wins hands down.  It boils down to the instructions work.  Just follow the instructions, don't "improve" don't cut corners, wait the five minutes, use the right cable and it's golden.
    > Even Schneider's video on how to do firmware update leaves out a step that bricks the Combox.  Midnight has 11 pages of exacting serial port configurations and mucking about in the computer, and then you hook up to the $600 controller and hope it's not getting bricked,

    Five minutes? Doh! Where did I read that?

    Is that related to firmware updates? Why isn't it in MSLOAD's otherwise clear onscreen inductions?

    Edit: Also, I did buy and use the Trip Lite DB9-USB, as recommended in the Comm. doc.

    Edit: I might have misunderstood the five minutes. Yes, A took about a minute. B took 7 minutes. And I stood there holding the meter for 7 minutes for that update. In fact, the meter update failed the first 2 times, because my laptop turned off the screen after five minutes, until I changed the timeout when I figured that could be the reason for the failure.
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Out of curiosity did you go into diagnostics and see how many hours the unit has run? Mine said 66198 hours which is eronious. Awaiting Morningstar's response, possibly tomorrow. 
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • stranger
    stranger Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    > @mcgivor said:
    > Out of curiosity did you go into diagnostics and see how many hours the unit has run? Mine said 66198 hours which is eronious. Awaiting Morningstar's response, possibly tomorrow. 


    Mine says 156 hours, which is about right.
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting, not related, thanks  for the conformation, trying to figure a link between our common /uncommon issue. Gives me more information when tech support responds.
    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • stranger
    stranger Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    > @mcgivor said:
    > Interesting, not related, thanks  for the conformation, trying to figure a link between our common /uncommon issue. Gives me more information when tech support responds.

    No problem. Since you haven't updated the firmware, that is likely the problem. I believe that mine came with version 18 - I think that was B.

    I'm now on the latest, which are V24 and 2.07.07 for the meter. You can find the version numbers under Settings on your meter and probably also in MSView.
  • stranger
    stranger Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    Also, to be thorough, my HW is V1.01.
  • stranger
    stranger Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    Minimal thought revealed a workaround for the glitch. With MSVIEW I disabled Float Cancellation. Of course, cycling power to the controller put it back into Absorb, when I had already equalized it today - Automatic Equalization has been disabled. I don't know when the bank was last equalized with the TS-45, since there was so little full sunlight before I upgraded to MPPT, so I decided to give it a blast.

    It's already 2:30pm, so I might not see float before sunset, which is 5:53pm today.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Morningstar, 5 minutes or whatever the system says the update takes - they are all different, 
    And when doing any firmware update, you can't try to rush things, the net abounds with stories of bricked routers, phones and such caused by cutting corners.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • stranger
    stranger Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    > @mike95490 said:
    > Morningstar, 5 minutes or whatever the system says the update takes - they are all different, 
    > And when doing any firmware update, you can't try to rush things, the net abounds with stories of bricked routers, phones and such caused by cutting corners.

    Got it, thanks. For some reason, when you mentioned it I had a false memory of reading that after flashing one should wait a certain time to cycle power. I checked all of the documentation again and then realized what you were saying.

    I've seen the stories about the bricks. Amazing. I never flashed the TS-45. Flashing the TS-MPPT-60, I only had the problem with the screen timeout of my laptop... and getting my hands in there to connect the DB-9. Reflashing went smoothly but didn't resolve the symptom.

    I'm guessing either there's a software issue with the specific hardware of my unit or I got a lemon.
  • stranger
    stranger Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    I'm waiting for a callback from Morningstar tech support. I'm going to get to the bottom of this.
  • stranger
    stranger Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    edited February 2017 #22
    > @mcgivor said:
    > Interesting, not related, thanks  for the conformation, trying to figure a link between our common /uncommon issue. Gives me more information when tech support responds.

    Here's a goof for you. After reconfiguring the logged data with MSVIEW, yesterday's W max shows 2952W. I only have 480W of panels. Major glitchy.
  • stranger
    stranger Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    edited February 2017 #23
    Mystery solved. The printed version of the manual lists the float cancellation at 11.5V, but the updated manual has 12.3V for the default, which was why it was stuck in Absorb. I had both versions of the manual. I was going by the printed version that came with the controller, and I didn't notice the difference, even when I used MSVIEW for the first time last night.

    Reset Ah fixed the Vmin on the Status screen.

    Everything was actually working normally, except for the erroneous Vmin on the status screen, which tech support couldn't explain but for which there was a solution.

    *SOLVED*
  • mcgivor
    mcgivor Solar Expert Posts: 3,854 ✭✭✭✭✭✭
    Tech support gave me the following info,
    The Amp Hours can easily be reset by scrolling with the down arrow button until you reach the Reset Ah page in the remote meter and then holding the right arrow button for 2 seconds. Additionally, this operation will reset the kWh counter and the battery minimum / maximum values as well. You can review this process, and many other options, in the meter map which I have included a link to below:

    1500W, 6× Schutten 250W Poly panels , Schneider MPPT 60 150 CC, Schneider SW 2524 inverter, 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Battery Bodyguard BMS 
    Second system 1890W  3 × 300W No name brand poly, 3×330 Sunsolar Poly panels, Morningstar TS 60 PWM controller, no name 2000W inverter 400Ah LFP 24V nominal battery with Daly BMS, used for water pumping and day time air conditioning.  
    5Kw Yanmar clone single cylinder air cooled diesel generator for rare emergency charging and welding.
  • stranger
    stranger Registered Users Posts: 22 ✭✭
    edited February 2017 #25
    > @mcgivor said:
    > Tech support gave me the following info,
    > The Amp Hours can easily be reset by scrolling with the down arrow button until you reach the Reset Ah page in the remote meter and then holding the right arrow button for 2 seconds. Additionally, this operation will reset the kWh counter and the battery minimum / maximum values as well. You can review this process, and many other options, in the meter map which I have included a link to below:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > http://support.morningstarcorp.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/TSM2.IOM_.TSPWMSolarMap.03.EN_.pdf

    Thanks. Yes, I did it while I was on the phone with tech support, and it solved the Vmin problem. After I told him that I had scoured the Internet and could not find a matching scenario, he told me that it took him some time to figure it out, too. We laughed.

    Coincidentally, I almost tried that very same process last night, but I ignored my instinct.