Off-grid cabin, looking for options

caleb
caleb Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭✭
I've been reading for weeks and I don't feel like I know much more than when I started.  I recently bought an off-grid cabin that was sold as having a "solar system".  I should have done more due-diligence, but didn't.  When I got in to it, I found out it has a 35W trickle charge panel hooked up to bank of deep cell automotive style batteries.  The panel doesn't keep up with the discharge on the batteries.  It was sold with two backup generators, a 1000 Honda (not the EU series) and a EM3500 Honda.  Right now most of the cabin is all DC powered and there's three outlets that are AC powered by the generators when they're running. I'm finding I have to pretty much run one of the generators all-day to keep the batteries charged.  I'd like the cabin to be all AC powered.

So here I am.  My demands currently are pretty small.  I have a dozen lights, an RV style water pump, and a small microwave (one of the outlets wired to the generators).  I plan to add a few other electronics (a TV ~135W, a small wireless router ~20W, and a few lamps).  I've already bought LED bulbs to swap out once I switch over to AC, they're 9W each.  My stove and refrigerator are both LPG, I also have a couple wall lamps that are LPG, and I have a wall heater that's LPG (I also have a wood burning stove for serious heat).

I've been looking at the off-grid kits (I don't think I know enough to piece something together myself right now).  I would like to get a nice inverter and charge controller, something larger than I need right now so if I need to I can grow a bit without re-spending money knowing I'll spend a little more upfront than is currently necessary.  It seems the kits I keep getting drawn to are in the 3500W range such as https://www.solar-electric.com/outback-power-off-grid-kit-1590-watts.html or the "Adventurist" kit from http://www.solarhome.com/offgrid-hyper-x--solar-kits.html.  I'm not 100% certain, but I believe this comes down to Outback vs. Schneider.  The Schneider kit comes with everything, including racking.  I was hoping to do a similar kit as those but with only a couple (2) panels for now and no batteries.  Would that be a waste?  I've got a budget of around $5K right now and plan to add on to it (batteries, more panels, and a nice generator) after winter.  

Since I've only got a couple weeks before my cabin will be snowmobile access only, I also have thought of doing a nice generator now (like the Kohler 12RES, I know that's way overkill, may do the 6VSG) that's made to run off-grid since I don't think it will take a lot to get one installed (may be totally wrong) and then doing the solar system in the spring.  

What's everyone's thoughts?  What am I missing?  Am I crazy to consider doing the genset first and then dealing with the solar later?

Comments

  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,812 ✭✭✭✭
    Wait until spring on the solar. It's a bit late but I feel like you are trying to do too much with one post.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Lots of questions;

    Do you have good in obstructive southern exposure?

    Would you like to do more with solar than the items listed?

    How much energy and how often is the water pump run?

    Age of the batteries? Really shouldn't need to run the Gennys all day to keep them charged!

    BTW- If you don't intend to rent this out, this should qualify for a 30% tax credit off any tax liability you have! at least for the next couple years.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Thom
    Thom Solar Expert Posts: 196 ✭✭✭
    How many amps is your battery charger that is running off the gen ? 

    Thom
    Off grid since 1984. 430w of panel, 300w suresine , 4 gc batteries 12v system, Rogue mpt3024 charge controller , air breeze windmill, Mikita 2400w generator . Added 2@ 100w panel with a midnight brat 
  • Thom
    Thom Solar Expert Posts: 196 ✭✭✭
    How many battery's is your bank of batteries?
    Off grid since 1984. 430w of panel, 300w suresine , 4 gc batteries 12v system, Rogue mpt3024 charge controller , air breeze windmill, Mikita 2400w generator . Added 2@ 100w panel with a midnight brat 
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thom said:
    How many amps is your battery charger that is running off the gen ? 
    Yeah, I wasn't thinking, perhaps you don't have a battery charger designed for deep cycle batteries!
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Thom
    Thom Solar Expert Posts: 196 ✭✭✭
    Or using the 12v output from the generator? His tv uses a lot of power 135w wow . We run our dsl box off 12 v so the inverter is on only at night. 
    Off grid since 1984. 430w of panel, 300w suresine , 4 gc batteries 12v system, Rogue mpt3024 charge controller , air breeze windmill, Mikita 2400w generator . Added 2@ 100w panel with a midnight brat 
  • caleb
    caleb Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭✭
    Thanks for the responses.  I'll try to answer all the questions.  My southern view is spotty, too many trees.  I have a couple spots (one ~6' wide strip the length of my roof, another on the ground that I could probably do ~8 panels) that have sunlight most of the day.  I could also remove trees if needed to, but don't want to unless I find it's required.  My power requirements are small, I don't plan to really do anything more.  This is just a weekend cabin, used maybe three weekends a month.  The pump uses 100W, it used very little.  The largest use is while we're showering, otherwise it's only real short bursts (washing hands, brushing teeth, etc).  I'm not sure on the age of the batteries.  I have 8 and all of them are 135ah each.  I would think they should last me a lot longer than they do, I've been leaning towards them being shot, but have thought about the charger not giving enough juice.  The charger is just an automotive style (so 15 amp).  It has a setting for deep cycle batteries, but I think having all 8 hooked up is what it probably can't handle.

    No plans to rent.  The tax incentives are really what has me coming back to just doing the solar this year.  I believe next year it drops to 26%, still better than nothing I would get with the generator. 

    I actually don't have the TV yet.  I've looked at a few and found they're anywhere from ~90W to 135W, so was using that as worse case.

    Thanks again
  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,812 ✭✭✭✭
    It is possible to find a welder who will make very affordable 1/8" angle iron racking. Racking isn't as big a deal as some believe.


    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2016 #10
    caleb said:
    I actually don't have the TV yet.  I've looked at a few and found they're anywhere from ~90W to 135W, so was using that as worse case.
    Look closely, I have a 55 inch, (LG?) that uses 70 watts in the eco mode...

    You might be looking at the back of the set, which is the max draw. Look at the energy saver and do the math backwards, some will say what they use in eco mode.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • caleb
    caleb Registered Users Posts: 25 ✭✭
    Photowhit said:
    caleb said:
    I actually don't have the TV yet.  I've looked at a few and found they're anywhere from ~90W to 135W, so was using that as worse case.
    Look closely, I have a 55 inch, (LG?) that uses 70 watts in the eco mode...

    You might be looking at the back of the set, which is the max draw. Look at the energy saver and do the math backwards, some will say what they use in eco mode.
    Thanks, yeah that's exactly what I was doing, looking at the back of the set.
  • Thom
    Thom Solar Expert Posts: 196 ✭✭✭
    8 @ 12v batteries in a 12v system  is tough to maintain and charge . 

    Thom

    Off grid since 1984. 430w of panel, 300w suresine , 4 gc batteries 12v system, Rogue mpt3024 charge controller , air breeze windmill, Mikita 2400w generator . Added 2@ 100w panel with a midnight brat 
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2016 #13
    Get a honda eu2000 for the winter and run it when you need power.  Also get air filters, and oil for changes.    Take the winter to properly plan your system, and built it in spring/summer
      Be thinking about eventually graduating to a 24V system using 4, golf cart batteries in series, an inverter, and AC charger, 24V 30A ballpark. Solar may or may not be useful.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 2016 #14
    your best charging option is to disconnect those batteries and charge them singly...  NUMBER them and record the START voltage, the END voltage and then the voltage after they have sat for 3 hours without a load or charge, this is the RESTING voltage...  post them here.  Also for each battery record and post the SG  for each battery before and after charging...

    enjoy...
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Thom
    Thom Solar Expert Posts: 196 ✭✭✭
    48 cells to check fill and record ! Oh what fun

    thom
    Off grid since 1984. 430w of panel, 300w suresine , 4 gc batteries 12v system, Rogue mpt3024 charge controller , air breeze windmill, Mikita 2400w generator . Added 2@ 100w panel with a midnight brat 
  • softdown
    softdown Solar Expert Posts: 3,812 ✭✭✭✭
    Good Rule of Thumb for deciding Voltage:
    12 volt....for less than 1000 watts
    24 volt....for 1000 to 2000 watts
    48 volt....for 2000 watts and above

    I don't know how folks manage anything resembling a modern life with less than 600 watts of PV.  PV is cheap these days and you have eight 135Ah batteries. If these are 12 volt batteries, it would be hard to use them properly without a 48 volt system.

    I have yet to read someone regretting that they went with a higher voltage system. The electrical lines suddenly double their capacity for one thing. Panels can be wired in series as well.
    First Bank:16 180 watt Grape Solar with  FM80 controller and 3648 Inverter....Fullriver 8D AGM solar batteries. Second Bank/MacGyver Special: 10 165(?) watt BP Solar with Renogy MPPT 40A controller/ and Xantrex C-35 PWM controller/ and Morningstar PWM controller...Cotek 24V PSW inverter....forklift and diesel locomotive batteries
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thom said:
    48 cells to check fill and record ! Oh what fun
    Another good reason to avoid parallel banks !
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,