Trouble Shooting SW 4048 loud straining then dropping AC2 in good

muirhouse
muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
I have a new problem! I no longer have the15kw Hardy Diesel, now using Westpro 7000 running Watts - 8500 starting Watts, been running fine with my two SW 4048s, (SW 4048 and 4048 Plus). 4048 manages the generator charging (although now I do a manual start and stop). And it manages readings on the Solar installation, along with the solar Controller, - that side working fine.

This new generator ran fine all winter, and is now throwing a breaker (I think) on the SW and I am not sure why. There is a slowly rising volume which builds to a loud pop and a spark! then drops AC2 in good. Sometimes is throws the main breaker on the generator, sometimes it doesn't in which case it keeps trying. And this problem is intermittent, although now has done it 4 times in a row in a trouble shooting session. And its getting cloudy, little solar, and I am going to need to start it again soon.

Questions are:  What is that little tiny white button on the right side of the 4048 that says 35 amp circuit breaker, it is such a loose push it seemed inoperable, then I read somewhere to push it 'really hard', so I did that earlier today, but have done nothing else yet this afternoon, not tried to restart thinking I would check with you all first. There was an electrical storm about a month ago, it could have thrown that breaker and I didn't know it.

So, I am going to turn off the Main Breaker in the House so there is no load (which would eliminate any wiring short causing this problem) and try again, which I will report on here, but in the meantime . . .

Over to you all: anyone have any ideas of what might be causing this generator to trip the breaker?  The intermittent nature baffles me.
I am thinking/hoping I have a setting wrong somewhere, as electrician was here trying to trouble shoot an intermittent on off problem which turned out to be a too-high setting on Inverter Search Watts. But he could have done something I didn't see.

Thanks Guys,
Jan

Ok. Reporting back - turning off main breaker to house and the inverter still tripped. Should I try pressing that small white circuit breaker button on the 4048 again.




Comments

  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,207 ✭✭✭✭

    Hi Jan,

    That breaker on the inverter,  with the white button is a Thermal breaker.  These breakers should really never trip.  AND,  each trip can mean that the breaker will trip at a somewhat lower current,  with each trip.

    It is quite possible that this breaker is starting to fail from too many trips.   The Trace SW inverters can be  a  bit difficult to get into,  to try to see what is up with that breaker  ...

    You did not mention from where that spark is coming from ...   can you see where?

    Might as well check ALL connections on the AC and DC side of the inverters,  and breakers for tightness.  You might also want to reduce the Maximum AC input Amps and perhaps the DC Charge Amps,  to perhaps,  reduce the likelihood of the need for any breakers tripping.

    It could also be possible,  that "electrical storm"  has caused a surge or some sort of induced voltage that could have damaged parts of your system ...

    Just some guesses for now.  Good Luck,   Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    Thanks so much Vic, good suggestions. Will do, and let you know how it goes. The spark is to the upper left and there is a big SNAP sound. The hard thing to watch/hear is the large groaning draw-down sound (like an overload) that happens just before the let go and the breaker sparking. I will watch more closely next time and be more specific about where that spark is.

    So pressing really hard on the 35 amp breaker - did I do anything by doing that? I will lower the settings and see what happens, thanks again, so useful! 

    Jan
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,207 ✭✭✭✭

    Hi Jan,

    It seems very unlikely to me,  that there would be any damage to that breaker with the small white button,  by pressing hard on it ...   personally,  would not worry about that.

    That groaning is probably from the large power transformer.  This could be from an overload.  The large relays that switch AC power,   can develop welded contacts,  from switching large currents,   although think that this would cause the Error light to illuminate ,  and a Code in the Error Causes menu.

    Wish that I had something specific to add at this point.   FWIW,   Vic


    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    You are a big help, Vic. Thank you. I will let you know if I turn anything up. Jan

  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    Hi Vic,

    OK, electrician texted and said to use the inverter bypass switch, and run the house off the generator, ever done that?
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,207 ✭✭✭✭

    Hi Jan,

    Have never needed to use the Bypass Switch,  but that is what is its purpose.

    These older Trace and Xantrex inverters are real workhorses,   well built and solid for a decade or two of service.   They are very heavy,  and a bit difficult to find parts to service them,  now.

    Hope that your issues are fixable without the need to ship either of them!

    The SW pluses in use here have been very solid performers,  but it will be a large disappointment when something in any of them breaks.

    Please do let us know how you are doing,  and the best of luck to you.     Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    Will do, thanks Vic.
  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    Ok!  This is what I did:  Turned on Generator, did not flip breaker on, just warming up. Flipped transfer switch bar to ON which was on the 4048 only, left the 4048 the way it was. Then flipped the breaker on the Generator and the 4048 plus showed a pickup of AC2, the Battery volts actual rose from 49 to 54 showing bulk charging and nothing blew up. Going back in to the house, learned that that breaker turns off all the circuits connected to it in the house. Then the sun came out strong, I turned it all back to normal, and now I know what to do!  Yeay!  Thanks for all the handholding !

  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,207 ✭✭✭✭

    One more thing,  Jan,

    Your WesPro 7000 genset  may be a bit under-powered for that pair of 4048s.

    There can be a bit of an issue with these Trace/Xantres SW and SW+ Inverter-Chargers  --  when they are charging batteries,  and are in a voltage-regulating charge stage (Absorb,  EQ,  or Float),  they can dump a considerable amount of current from the AC input to them back into the genset's AC output.  This is particularly noticeable when there is significant PV power production,  also charging the batteries.   In order for the charger to regulate voltage,  at times,  it needs to dump some charge current,  somewhere,  and the AC In is about the only place for them to do this.

    The above situation can cause the AC voltage of the genset to be pulled above its regulated output voltage,  often causing the Inverter-Charger to Disqualify the AC input voltage,  and thus causing the SW to drop the AC in,  and the Transfer relay in the SW/s to transfer back to Inverting,  and requalify the AC in,  and this process repeats.

    Larger gensets usually do not evidence this problem (15 kW/kVA and up).  Also,  at times where there is less PV production,  this may not be much of an issue.

    If your SWs are in a relatively quiet location (basement?),  the humming from a possible overload,  and the "clunk"  of an internal Transfer relay in the SWs  may seem fairly LOUD,  compared to having the inverters near the genset.

    Assume that you are still Stacking these two SWs,  and each of the gensets you mentioned were producing 240 VAC output,  one leg of which feeds one SW.

    This is probably not any part of your present issue,  but that WesPro genset has a Ground-to-Neutral Bond,  which is not exactly what you want  --  to of these bonds in a single system ...

    FWIW,   Glad that you have at least a partial solution.   Good Luck,   Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Simple, your inverter/charger was set to work with 15Kw genset, and you have replaced it with a 7Kw genset.  You need to re-program the gear to work with a smaller generator.  
    i don't know if the SW's have any programming capability, but going to half the generator and getting problems seems like the genset is too small for the demands being placed on it.
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    Thanks both of you, interesting and new things to consider; having said that, this setup has been running since October without a hitch, and the size is the size, the 15kw was just that big so as to be able to handle heavy shop loads over and above the battery charges, which is a requirement no longer. It has been running fine, and in concert with the PV, backing off where appropriate, etc.  There are two inverters because at the time we needed the 2nd SW to handle another 120 let for the well pump 220. I do think Vic's earlier idea is good, of reducing the Max Amps AC and DC charge amps and see if that keeps the breaker from tripping. Also taking off the hood and seeing which breaker is tripping. I am not getting an overcurrent error which is odd.  So, I think also the lightening strike may be behind this. Whatever the outcome, today was a great learning day, and thanks to heavy sunshine, lots of baking and showering for guests was carried off without a hitch. Thanks again and will keep you posted.
  • mike95490
    mike95490 Solar Expert Posts: 9,583 ✭✭✭✭✭
    muirhouse said:
    .... seeing which breaker is tripping. I am not getting an overcurrent error which is odd.  So, I think also the lightening strike may be behind this......
    Lightning Strike !!    What do you use for surge protection ?  Delta's  ?  Midnight SPD's ?
    Powerfab top of pole PV mount | Listeroid 6/1 w/st5 gen head | XW6048 inverter/chgr | Iota 48V/15A charger | Morningstar 60A MPPT | 48V, 800A NiFe Battery (in series)| 15, Evergreen 205w "12V" PV array on pole | Midnight ePanel | Grundfos 10 SO5-9 with 3 wire Franklin Electric motor (1/2hp 240V 1ph ) on a timer for 3 hr noontime run - Runs off PV ||
    || Midnight Classic 200 | 10, Evergreen 200w in a 160VOC array ||
    || VEC1093 12V Charger | Maha C401 aa/aaa Charger | SureSine | Sunsaver MPPT 15A

    solar: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Solar
    gen: http://tinyurl.com/LMR-Lister ,

  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    MIke - Lightening did not strike the house but was in the area, so just guessing on this. It struck the ground like that years ago and ruined diodes on the Cummins I had then, took forever to diagnose that.

    Vic, that is interesting about the PV feedback, I sent that to my electrician who otherwise hates that fact that I have the two Xantrex slung together. I did try to do this bypass test early am enough to negate any PV input, but could also try turning off PV breaker also. I will do that when I do the test today with the ACs lowered. Jan
  • muirhouse
    muirhouse Solar Expert Posts: 82 ✭✭
    Problem solved! Vic - it was in fact a relay not a breaker.  Lowered the gen amps and the AC inputs to 21 from 30 and back in business. Thanks again for everyone's help.  Much appreciated.  Jan
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,207 ✭✭✭✭

    Hi Jan,  Just saw your last post ...errrrrr   Comment.

    Great news.  These older Trace/Xantrex Inverters are really quite solid.  Some in this area are still running after 18 - 20 years.

    Thanks for the update,  and continue with your good luck!   Vic

    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.