DC Water Heating Element Equivalency/Rating? ac vs dc

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kaipo_boy
kaipo_boy Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭

I've just purchased a DC water heating element from Missouri Wind & Sun... my water heater is 100 gallons, and it currently is on the grid with 2 heating elements, 220v. I think each element is something like 4500w, although I'm told they are wired so that either the top or the bottom element is on, not both at the same time. 

I started an experiment with my family of 4 about a year ago, and started instructing them to turn off the water heater at the breaker panel most of the day... when we get home from work/school in the afternoon, I then tell them to turn the water heater back on for a hour or so, then turn it off again just prior to washing up. This allows the heater to heat water in it, but as its off when they take hot water out, the cold water comes in the bottom and stays cold as you use up the hot water on top... sort of a batch heating idea, which is fine as long as you don't use the entire batch up at once.  This has led to some aggravation as they are kids and don't exactly follow the letter of what you tell them.... but I've seen a noticeable dent in my power bill.  I'm posting this in the battery/off grid section but it could go anywhere, really, I just did this as my first step in moving off grid (reducing use... next phase was a small stand alone battery bank/PV; now I'm on to a 2nd, larger stand alone PV and battery bank). Although the difference in cost was negligible in energy use, at the time my power bill was more than $230 per month so doing this made a difference.  Gas prices have come down since, but so has my usage and its now more manageable at under $100 per month.

Anyway, I just got this DC heating element, rated by them at 600w and they say its a 24v heater, but in their ad it states you can run any voltage, really, as long as you don't exceed the wattage rating. So I've purchased 2 panels to run this heating element all day, they are Trina 280w panels and they normally put out a little over 250w in the bright sun at roughly 8A. So I'll have the heating element directly wired to 2 panels at around 35v at 16A, or roughly 550w max, for maybe 3.5 hours to 4 hours per day (Hawaii).  Now, that translates to about 2 kwh per day of dc current into the water heater.  Does anyone here think that will be enough to make 100g of hot water? I would guess the water comes in at around 75F and has to be heated to around 130F, so that's 60F of movement needed.  I think with AC systems you need around 2.5w to move 1 gallon of water 1 degree F, but I don't know if that is also true of DC systems... or should it matter? If this rule holds true and I have my 4500w heater on for an hour, that means 4.5kwh per day... but this new system will only make around 550w x 3.5 hours = 1925wh = 1.9kwh per day, less than half what I'm used to before when the heater was on the grid. But I don't know if a/c and d/c watts are interchangeable.

If this math is correct, I think I have to buy 2 more panels (4 total) and another heating element and install both of them into my water heater to get about the same amount of hot water (granted, 100gal is a lot, we never run out; so I'm thinking we don't need to calculate the calories for 100gal, probably half that would be closer to real world use).

thoughts?

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  • BilljustBill
    BilljustBill Solar Expert Posts: 219 ✭✭✭
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    Look into this information about using your present heating elements and powered by a charge controller with 800-1000 watts of panels on the roof.

    http://waterheatertimer.org/Convert-AC-water-heater-to-DC-water-heater.html

    Bill

    Bill
  • kaipo_boy
    kaipo_boy Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭
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    Thanks, Bill! Lot of info on that site...

    I'm still looking for an answer to my original question, though; is DC wattage about the same as AC wattage?

    I'll probably just mount my system (for now) with 2 PV panels because that's how many I purchased for it. I'll replace just the bottom heating element with the DC element and leave the top element hooked up to the grid, and see how it performs. If it does not provide enough hot water, I'll go ahead and pick up another element and 2 more panels...

  • Raj174
    Raj174 Solar Expert Posts: 795 ✭✭✭✭
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    Is DC wattage about the same as AC wattage? I believe it is when dealing with resistance circuits. When motors or transformers are involved, they are calculated differently. Power factor must be considered.
    4480W PV, MNE175DR-TR, MN Classic 150, Outback Radian GS4048A, Mate3, 51.2V 360AH nominal LiFePO4, Kohler Pro 5.2E genset.
  • Johann
    Johann Solar Expert Posts: 245 ✭✭✭
    edited March 2016 #5
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    A 600 watt heat element at 24 volt needs 25 amps to get the full heat out of the heat element.
    if you power a 24 volt heat element up with lets say 40 volts I strongly believe that it will burn up providing that your system has enough amps where the voltage will not sag when loaded up.
    If the heat element does not burn up with higher voltages then it is not a 24 volt heat element.
    Can you check how many ohms this heat element has? It may not be a 24 volt heat element after all.

    To heat 100 gallons of water from 75 F to 130 F you need 46,750 btu. 46,750 btu = 13,701 watt hours.

    To heat 1 pound of water 1 degrees = 1 BTU
    1 BTU = 0.293071 watt hours
    1 gallon of water is about 8.5 pounds.
    Temperature difference is 55 F.

    Per ohms law as far as I can see, the calculation is the same for the watt in a AC or DC circuit.






  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Yes, DC vs AC wattage is exactly the same.

    AC Watts and AC Volt*Amps are different for electric motors, and other inductive/capacitive circuits--But not an issue here.

    There are two "big" issues... First, When you drop the line voltage to a heating element, the heating output of the element drops by the square of the voltage (close enough for our needs).

    So, if you have a 240 VAC element and drop the input voltage to 120 VAC (or VDC), the output difference will be 2^2 or 4x (1/4 the heating power at 120 Volts).

    The second issue is that the contacts that open/close in the thermostat can burn out when running DC voltage--DC Voltage "naturally" maintains an arc better than AC voltage/current. So, how you do the thermostat will require a DC rated switch (or silicon switch).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zez2r1RPpWY

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    :)kaipo_boy said:

    I'm still looking for an answer to my original question, though; is DC wattage about the same as AC wattage?

    Just to give you an idea of what you are up against, I have a 3600watt 240v element in a 30 gallon water heater. I'm running it on 120volts so it's about a 900watt heating element.  It takes 5 hours or so to lift the water temp from 70-75 degrees to @110-115.

    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • kaipo_boy
    kaipo_boy Solar Expert Posts: 143 ✭✭
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    OUCH!  I guess the first thing truly 'green' people should learn is to like cold showers, then :)
  • Johann
    Johann Solar Expert Posts: 245 ✭✭✭
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    BB. said:
    Yes, DC vs AC wattage is exactly the same.

    AC Watts and AC Volt*Amps are different for electric motors, and other inductive/capacitive circuits--But not an issue here.

    There are two "big" issues... First, When you drop the line voltage to a heating element, the heating output of the element drops by the square of the voltage (close enough for our needs).

    So, if you have a 240 VAC element and drop the input voltage to 120 VAC (or VDC), the output difference will be 2^2 or 4x (1/4 the heating power at 120 Volts).

    The second issue is that the contacts that open/close in the thermostat can burn out when running DC voltage--DC Voltage "naturally" maintains an arc better than AC voltage/current. So, how you do the thermostat will require a DC rated switch (or silicon switch).

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zez2r1RPpWY

    -Bill
    Bill,  the video is not playing for me. it turns into a white screen.
    Any ideas?
  • Johann
    Johann Solar Expert Posts: 245 ✭✭✭
    edited April 2016 #10
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    kaipo_boy said:
    OUCH!  I guess the first thing truly 'green' people should learn is to like cold showers, then :)

    Or use a solar water panel which could give you about 4 times the heat for the same square footage used than a PV panel.

    Or save more hot water, then less panels are needed.

    Or use propane.

    I seen a manufactured wood-fired  water heater in operation before, it works, but takes time. But this was eons ago, makes me wonder if they are still manufactured.

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    It is just a youtube video... I searched Google "AC vs DC arc video"

    And see if I can post the link:

    AC versus DC load breaking comparison with a knife switch


    -Bill


    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Johann
    Johann Solar Expert Posts: 245 ✭✭✭
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    BB. said:
    It is just a youtube video... I searched Google "AC vs DC arc video"

    And see if I can post the link:

    AC versus DC load breaking comparison with a knife switch


    -Bill

    Bill, thank you for the link, best video I seen so far.

    Did you notice that the heat elements did not dim while the arcing was going on.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Yep--Arcs (once plasma is started) are very happy in the 20-40 volt range (for smaller gaps). That was a 220 VAC/VDC supply. So only a 10% or 20% reduction in voltage across the heating elements.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset