Xantrex XW-MPPT-60-150, firmware upgradeable?

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creakndale
creakndale Solar Expert Posts: 27 ✭✭
in Advanced Solar Electric Technical Forum #1
I'm in the market for an PV MPPT charge controller and I've pretty much narrowed the choices to either the MX-60 or the XW-MPPT-60-150 (Apollo won't return my emails so I'm not interested in their charge controller)

I've read tons of information on this forum and the Outback forum regarding the MX-60. I like the fact that it's a mature, reliable product, Outback's overall good customer service, fantastic product forums and that the firmware is upgradable. The negatives would be the EMI/EMC interference during PWM, the fan maintenance issues and relay clicking although the last two may no longer be issues.

On the other hand, since the XW-MPPT-60-150 hasn't released to the general public, there's very little information on it. I like that Xantrex has addressed the EMI/EMC issue and there's no fan and a better MPPT cycle. But I've read that their customer service in the past has been pretty bad. So here's the question. Will there be a provision to upgrade the XW-MPPT firmware? I couldn't find this information in the manual yet I doubt they would be confident enough to think they got it right on the first production release.
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  • nigtomdaw
    nigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    #2
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    Re: Xantrex XW-MPPT-60-150, firmware upgradeable?

    I believe the XW-MPPT-60 is firmware upgradeable via the Xanbus network, so it looks like other equipment will be required. The original design for the XW was the SC60 by solar guppy it had a Rs232 interface but this appears to have been removed from the production units. Confirm with Solar Guppy at www.solar-guppy.com/forum
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #3
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    Re: Xantrex XW-MPPT-60-150, firmware upgradeable?

    The MX60 firmware is not software upgradeable, one has to disassemble the MX60 and swap out the CPU daughter card, not something for the average enduser.

    The WXMPPT is software upgradeable via the Xanbus, a Canbus -> RS232 converters is needed, not sure if Xantrex service would "lend" that or if Xantrex expects owners to fork over 100.00 for the converter but it does not require the XW to be disassembled to upgrade.

    Not sure what you mean by Xantrex Customer service, they have the best warrantys and have free 800 number and on solar products offer ship-ahead replacements for defective products and have always backed their products 100%. The WX platform is very mature and probably the most extensively tested RE product ever released, I would not hesitate to buy units when they are available.
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  • creakndale
    creakndale Solar Expert Posts: 27 ✭✭
    #4
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    Re: Xantrex XW-MPPT-60-150, firmware upgradeable?

    Thank you for responding with this valuable information. This is a great forum.

    In the XW MPPT manual under "Commissioning" it mentions that when power is first applied you go through a process of setting the various parameters. Do you know if these settings are saved to non-volatile memory (EEProm)? So if power is removed (disconnecting the battery for maintenance, for example) once reconnected do you have to go through the "Commissioning" process again?
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #5
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    Re: Xantrex XW-MPPT-60-150, firmware upgradeable?

    Yes, it has eeprom .. and yes all info is saved
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  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭✭
    #6
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    Re: Xantrex XW-MPPT-60-150, firmware upgradeable?

    I wonder if the XW-MPPT controller was meant to be user re-programmable in the field ?? The MX60 can also be programmed in the field but they're not going to give anyone the necessary files to do that with. And you'd need a special $35 or so programmer unit anyway, as opposed to that converter for the XW-MPPT unit as S.G. says. So, this's my question... Is the Xan-Bus programming method JUST for original in-house programming of the XW MPPT ?

    BTW, I understand the XW-MPPT algorithm has been changed slightly from S.G.'s original patented method. Not sure how much though.

    boB
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  • Solar Guppy
    Solar Guppy Solar Expert Posts: 1,989 ✭✭✭
    #7
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    Re: Xantrex XW-MPPT-60-150, firmware upgradeable?

    Hi boB ... you have been quite lately on the boards!

    The XW was/is meant to be field upgraded, similar to the GT gridtie inverters with encrypted files. I aggree the CANBUS dongle is a bit much but it was designed originally to use RS232, don't know what xantrex will do for endusers on the dongle. Both the inverter and charger can be reprogramed in the field via Xanbus

    I know the MX60 has the jtag port, but without a means to offer the end user files, its doesn't offer much. The Xantrex stuff has decryption code in the DSP's that can't be read with a programmer, thats how they can send out files without IP thief issues.

    Last I heard it was mostly my mppt code, changed to deal with some hardware changes since the SC-60 platform but I haven't seen the code base in quite sometime so anything is possible!
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  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    #8
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    Re: Xantrex XW-MPPT-60-150, firmware upgradeable?

    I've read tons of information on this forum and the Outback forum regarding the MX-60. I like the fact that it's a mature, reliable product, Outback's overall good customer service, fantastic product forums and that the firmware is upgradable. The negatives would be the EMI/EMC interference during PWM, the fan maintenance issues and relay clicking although the last two may no longer be issues.

    The MX60 is field-upgradeable. It takes me about an hour to remove mine from my system, crack open the enclosure, disassemble the inards, R&R the control board, reassemble the guts, and then reinstall and reprogram the unit. I suspect it would take a skilled novice ~ 2 hours. This is not a common activity: There have been only two official SW upgrades over the past three years. Here's a link to the instructions: http://www.outbackpower.com/pdfs_manuals/MX%20control%20board%20replacement%207-14-06.pdf

    I don't know where the fan issue stands. There seems to be fewer failure reports on the forum, but I've had two fans fail. I keep a spare on hand.

    I consider the relay clicking issue to be resolved. OutBack's current SW includes user programmable wakeup parameters (Voc change or time delay) that appear to have pretty much done away with the clattering morning relay clicking issue. For example, I have my MX60 wakeup parameters set at 4.5 V and 10 minutes. The controller must wait until the Voc increases by 4.5 V or until 10 minutes have passed since the last wakeup attempt until it will "click" and attempt another wakeup. Higher voltage arrays require larger Voc increments.

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
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  • creakndale
    creakndale Solar Expert Posts: 27 ✭✭
    #9
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    Re: Xantrex XW-MPPT-60-150, firmware upgradeable?

    Thanks for all the great responses.

    Three years ago a friend of mine built an off grid house with an Outback system. Within the first year his MX-60 broke but his installer replaced it at no charge due to warranty. Overall he's been happy with the system performance but last month he told me his MX-60 fan was making a lot of unusual noises and starting last week he has to poke at the fan to get it to spin. Outback is sending him a free replacement fan under warranty with a DVD instructional video on how to install it. However, not being technically inclined he's reluctant to do the replacement. His original installer will replace the fan but is going to charge him a substantial amount for travel expenses.

    I've read through the "Control Board and Fan Replacement Procedures" (thanks for the link!) and I have no problem replacing his fan. But here's my question. Since I'm going to be taking his MX-60 apart anyway should I go ahead and have him get the latest firmware control board from Outback and bring his MX-60 up the latest version? I don't know what firmware he currently has in his MX-60 but it sounds like there's could be two newer versions. If the unit is still under warranty is a new firmware control board provided at no cost? How about a firmware revision history? I couldn't find what bug fixes/upgrades are contained in later firmware releases. He may possibly benefit from them.
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  • crewzer
    crewzer Registered Users, Solar Expert Posts: 1,832 ✭✭✭✭
    #10
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    Re: Xantrex XW-MPPT-60-150, firmware upgradeable?

    Here's a link to a previous discussion about the MX60 firmware revision history: http://forum.solar-electric.com/showthread.php?t=619&highlight=mx60+history

    If you're going to replace the fan, then go ahead and update the control board / firmware at the same time, as it'll add only a couple of minutes to the total job time.

    Note that while the latest firmware seems to be more "stable", some previous features (i.e., AUX polarity) were deleted :grr . You'll need to review the latest manual to confirm that you can work with the latest upgrade.

    Contact OutBack about a control board board swap. Any cost issues will between you/your friend and OutBack. ;)

    HTH,
    Jim / crewzer
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  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭✭
    #11
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    Re: Xantrex XW-MPPT-60-150, firmware upgradeable?
    Solar Guppy wrote: »
    Hi boB ... you have been quite lately on the boards!


    Yep ! I've been very busy as you might expect.
    Thanks for noticing !

    boB
    ;)
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  • nigtomdaw
    nigtomdaw Solar Expert Posts: 705 ✭✭
    #12
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    Re: Xantrex XW-MPPT-60-150, firmware upgradeable?

    bob working long hours and smoking heavily tends to age people quickly but you seem to thrive on it,:p
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  • boB
    boB Solar Expert Posts: 1,030 ✭✭✭✭
    #13
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    Re: Xantrex XW-MPPT-60-150, firmware upgradeable?
    nigtomdaw wrote: »
    bob working long hours and smoking heavily tends to age people quickly but you seem to thrive on it,:p

    Yes !!! Look how YOUNG I look !!
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