Making a solar system with 10W panel, charge controller, batteries and multiple output

KnowledgeSeeker
KnowledgeSeeker Registered Users Posts: 10
Dear Solar Experts & Seniors,

I got a 10 Watt solar panel (http://www.ebay.com/itm/252042799389?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT). It came with a 5v car USB charger and suction mount holder. My intended setup is adding a MPPT charge controller and batteries and get multiple voltage output (5v 2.1 Amps, 9v and 12v) to charge phones, power Arduinos/Raspberry PIs and 12v electronic equipment. Please guide me and enlighten me on following;
1. What sort of charge controller will be required (I want safety, intelligent charging and control.
2. What batteries should I use and do these require any BMS kind of circuitry?
3. Can I setup to add/remove more batteries in addition to minimum setup? to add wattage to system? 
4. What circuitry I will require to intelligently provide charging/output at 5/9/12 volts with display and balancing/switching?
5. Please suggest products/vendors/suppliers from which I can get pieces and complete puzzle.

I am grateful in anticipation.

Comments

  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    A 10 Watt panel is pretty small... It sounds like the setup is for charging an automotive battery when the car is sitting unused.

    And an MPPT charge controller is not typically used on such a small solar panel/setup.

    Backing up a moment--How much energy do you plan on using a day (Watts*Hours of user per day = Watt*Hours per day)? Do you want the battery large enough to supply power for a couple of days of bad weather?

    It is better to define your loads/needs first, then design a system that can support those loads. Then finally go out and buy the equipment needed that will meet your requirements.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • KnowledgeSeeker
    KnowledgeSeeker Registered Users Posts: 10
    Dear BB, thanks for reply. I am intended to make a compact portable system (that can be carried in laptop backpack) with 5+5+5 watts modules and enough juice to charge smartphones and tablets as well as jump start vehicle 2-3 times as 24 hrs/1-day survival backup. If battery holds charge for 72 hours thats enough to cope with 50% bad weather, say 20 Amps/hr.

    1. Fully charge 3 times a smartphone, say note 5. 
    2. Fully charge a tablet like IPad once.
    3. Additionally charge radio (walkie talkie)+GPS+(4 AA camera batteries) once
    4. Power a 1 watt arduino circuit for a day and a Cree LED flashlight for an hour
    5. Additionally jump start for car a couple of times a day (4-6 times on full charge)
    6. Ability to charge from Mains/Car as well

    Overall product idea a power backup in backpack that can be charged from solar/car/mains, has built in flashlight, radio and sensors for weather/environment and ability to charge a couple of devices (phone+tab+gps, 2 usb charging ports 2.1 Amps each) and jump start a vehicle a couple of times (12v) for 24-72 hour wilderness survival. Weight is important consideration. You can call it a DIY project somewhat similar to Fogo (https://www.fogo.io/features.html) but on steroids.
  • KnowledgeSeeker
    KnowledgeSeeker Registered Users Posts: 10
    Dear BB, I found a product at amazon, "Antigravity Batteries AG-XP-10 USB" (http://www.amazon.com/Antigravity-Batteries-AG-XP-10-USB/dp/B00MQ5Z5F2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1443763523&sr=8-1&keywords=Antigravity+Batteries+AG-XP-10+USB). It is almost near to what I want to DIY but pricy. I would like to know if I can charge it from my panel (10W) as its input required is 14v 1amps. Also what it would take to DIY similar product? Please respond.
  • PNjunction
    PNjunction Solar Expert Posts: 762 ✭✭✭
    Your needs are so all over the map, and without knowing your *exact* power needs over time, nor your solar-insolation hours, this is impossible to predict - be it commercial or diy.

    But if you still want to play with solar toys, then for your needs I'd recommend an Anker 14 watt panel.  NOCO Genius GB30 at minimum.  Look into more Anker panels and even Anker battery packs.

    At this stage, all of this is pretty much off the rack consumer toy stuff, so you'll just have to buy some, throw it at the wall, and see if it sticks.  Going diy will cost you even more, or a lot of downtime learning about electronics in general.

    Grab the Anker 14w panel, the Noco Genius GB30 and see how it goes from there.

  • KnowledgeSeeker
    KnowledgeSeeker Registered Users Posts: 10
    Dear PNJunction, thank you very much for guidance. Yes initially my requirements have had breadth but no depth. But now as much as I read and researched, I am more focused and confident. 

    Thanks for Anker 14w and Noco suggestion, in morning I short listed Antigravity and  Noco but problem was that Noco 12 VDC out is for jump start only and not for electronics and also it has smaller battery.

    Now all the requirements are realigned after removing all extras and focusing on solar power + storage + Output needs.

    1. DC INPUT: from Solar Panel (of your recommended specs).
    2. DC INPUT: Ability to charge from 12V car lighter socket
    3. AC INPUT: mains (220v) through some adapter.

    Output required is 100 WATT overall:
    4. DC Output: 2 x 5V USB 2.1 AMPS
    5. DC Output: QI Wireless Charging
    6. DC Output: 12 V 10 AMPS
    7. DC Output: 19 V 3.5 AMPS (for Laptop charging)
    8. AC Output: 220 V 60 HZ 50 WATTS
    9: DC Output: 12 V 400 AMPS for car jump start OR car battery charging through Lighter Port 

    The more I read more I become interested in develop it and produce for folks like minded around. I know it is a lot of asking, I made a simple diagram that might explain its components please guide what kind of circuitry, panel and batteries would be most suitable for it, keeping the costs aside for the moment. Thanks a lot.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    In general, it is difficult to have one system that does everything... You are looking for small/low voltage/low power needs, and you want 400 Amps to jump start a vehicle.

    Some sort of Lithium Ion battery technology is probably the only thing that will even approach what you want to do that will not have the drawbacks of Lead Acid Batteries (heavy, larger foot print, keeping filled with distilled water--if flooded cell, etc.).

    But even then... Still need some idea of how long you expect to run from the battery bank. You can take a liter of fuel and put it in a drag racing car--Get to very high speeds in less than 1 km. However, you will need a tank of 40-80 liters if you want to drive long distances.

    400 AH * 12 volts * 1/60 minutes per hour = 80 Watt*Hours of battery capacity to start vehicle
    30 Watt computer * 12 hours of use per day = 360 Watt*Hours of battery capacity to run laptop computer

    So--Jump starting needs a lot of current for 1 minute, and not very much total energy. Or a laptop computer running 1/2 a day uses lots of energy, but not very high peak current.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • KnowledgeSeeker
    KnowledgeSeeker Registered Users Posts: 10
    Dear BB, thanks for kind words. 

    So the way to go is Lithium battery, further need to know what kind of and can it be user replaceable/available online?

    Following three cases are exclusive or shared (A, B & C), means either user will use device for phones/tabs/12v charging or (in case of emergency) will consume the device battery to jumpstart vehicle or charge laptop to full.

    A) I think a minute of jump start would be enough say 90 Watts.
    B) Laptop charging capacity require one full charge available in battery so I think it will also require 90 Watts.
    C) Charge cellphones, gadgets, tablets and other electronics that consumes less power.

    So overall watts requirements for system/battery would be 90-100 watt load for 60 minutes. So again coming to queries 1 to 9 above, what would be battery, panel, electronics specs/circuitry will be required?




     
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Lithium batteries are a bit out of my field.  hopefully some other folks here can help.

    But we are still in the phase of trying to understand your loads.

    100 watts x 1 hour = 100 Watt hours
    100 wh / 12 volts = 8.3 AmpHour battery

    Make it 17 AH battery to give you 80% to 30% state of charge for good battery life. Or use about  50% of capacity.

    That is a small battery. But, other than starting a vehicle would seem to meet your needs?

    And, are you in Saudi Arabia? Would you find it easier to obtain components from Europe?

    -Bill

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Seeker, It appear you are trying to check things out and be reasonably cheap. If you have a panel now, or have purchased the panel at the provided link, stop now and look at what that panel is likely to produce.

    A 10 watt panel will likely average around 30 watt hours of electric in an average day, very rough we don't know where you are, and this assumes you will leave it exposed to the sun and not move it during the day. You will loose a bit in the transition to storage and through an adapter to higher voltages to run a small laptop. I have a 12 inch laptop that would use this much electric in about an hour. Tablets use less energy(in general) and cell phones even less, but this should be a starting point.

    If you need to be able to jump start a car, you might look into a 'jump box' for your electrical storage. They tend to have 12-20 amphour agm batteries in them and have the means to directly connect the battery to the car. Most will also have a 12volt car outlet, that you could use to connect the panel or trickle charge from an automobile.

    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • KnowledgeSeeker
    KnowledgeSeeker Registered Users Posts: 10
    Dear Friends, I am in Saudi Arabia. Also I can source components easily from EU/US through mail and I usually buy online from Digikey, Sparkfun, Adafruit etc so no issues in this regard. There are vendors who supply all kind of components and instruments for our makerspace in university as well. Dear BB, lets settle for a battery around 25 AH reserving some juice other than jumpstart.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    OK... For off grid power usage--LiFePO4 (lithium ion iron phosphate) seem to be a popular choice. Probably won't jump start a car with a smaller battery.

    Go into Google, and use this search term:

    site:solar-electric.com lifepo4

    The "site:" tag limits searches to a specific website. There are lots of threads about this type of battery (vendors, charging voltages, etc.).

    -Bill

    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • KnowledgeSeeker
    KnowledgeSeeker Registered Users Posts: 10
    Dear Bill, Thanks for battery selection guidance. Meanwhile what about rest of components/circuitry please? 
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    This does depend on the battery / BMS (battery management system) you choose.

    In general, LiFePO4 batteries do not need temperature compensation (lead acid battery controllers are programmed to drop the charging voltage as the battery gets hot). But the programmed voltage is critical. Too high of voltage will damage the cells. Too low of voltage (take the cells "dead") will kill the battery.

    A 10 Watt panel is very small (in terms of what we use on homes/cabins/etc.). I don't really have any suggestions (and do not have any Li battery experience).

    Hopefully, somebody else here can help.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • KnowledgeSeeker
    KnowledgeSeeker Registered Users Posts: 10
    Dear BB, as per your direction, I have gone through information on batteryspace.com and learnt about various factors I would have considered and calculated before like weight and minimal watt requirement (as you have already asked many times) because simply a 25 AH battery weights more than 2KG and thereby the system does not remain portable in backpack anymore. I found Li-NMC weight less than LiFePO4 while LiFePO4 is safer than Li-NMC? Goal Zero has a similar system (http://www.goalzero.com/p/207/sherpa-100-power-pack) which weighs only 864 grams with 11v 8800 mAH 3.7v battery.

    So I think one of following 2 would be choice; (http://www.batteryspace.com/lifepo4-battery-12v-9ah-108wh-18a-rate-with-led-indicator-replace-sla-12v-7ah-lighter-weight-and-higher-capacity----un38-3-passed.aspx) LiFePO4 Battery: 12V 9Ah (108Wh, 18A rate)
    OR
    (http://www.batteryspace.com/lifepo4-battery-12v-10ah-120wh-40a-rate---replace-sla-12v-10ah-with-5-times-cycle-life-lighter-weight---un38-3-passed-dgr.aspx) LiFePO4 Battery: 12V 10Ah (120Wh, 40A rate).

    These have PCB installed. Shall I need BMS? What charging circuit will be required and how I would be able to get desired outputs? Will the 10W-15W panel be able to charge it in 6-8 hours?
  • KnowledgeSeeker
    KnowledgeSeeker Registered Users Posts: 10
    Dear BB, I found 2 products near to my requirements;
    1. http://www.bioennopower.com/pages/120-watt-hour-power-pack
    2. http://strongrr.com/power/solar-generator/strongrr-pb160-portable-solar-generator-power-pack-black.html
    Can I make something better than that myself in DIY? or go for one of these? No. 1 has LiFePO4 battery.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    If you where going to DIY--There are single chip charge controllers that could be setup to charge for your--But that would involve laying out your own circuit card.

    Getting a "Goal Zero" or other portable type system is certainly going to be a lot easier, and probably cheaper than building your own (still not cheap).

    We do have a few threads about Goal Zero and an alternative or two:

    site:solar-electric.com goal zero

    Regarding how fast something will charge... Roughly (conservative) math would look like:

    http://solarelectricityhandbook.com/solar-irradiance.html

    Riyadh
    Average Solar Insolation figures

    Measured in kWh/m2/day onto a solar panel set at a 65° angle (from Vertical):
    (For best year-round performance)
    Jan Feb Mar Apr May Jun
    4.61
     
    5.46
     
    5.75
     
    6.04
     
    6.54
     
    6.92
     
    Jul Aug Sep Oct Nov Dec
    6.79
     
    6.76
     
    6.59
     
    6.36
     
    5.12
     
    4.43
     
    Pick ~5 hours of sun per day (most of the year):
    • 10 watts * 0.77 typical panel+charger efficiency * 1/14.0 volts charging = 0.55 amps
    If you have a 10 AH battery bank,  and assume you have used 50% of the energy (30% to 80% state of charge) then:
    • 10 AH * 0.50 of battery capacity / 0.55 Amps = ~9 hours
    • 18 hours / 5.0 hours of sun per day = 1.8 Days to recharge
    As to what type (and brand) of Lithium Ion battery--There have been hundreds of pages discussing that (and BMS, how to charge, etc.) on those subjects. I really do not have much to add here.

    In general, Solar Power systems do use high discharge/charging currents. You may not need an active BMS system--But simply measure the voltage of each cell with an accurate volt meter. Use a small Li cell charger, or even a resistor (or filament lamp) to charge/discharge cells to exactly the same voltage--The cells will not "drift" very much and you will rarely (if ever) have to "re-balance them". Otherwise, using a BMS to monitor each cell (or get cells with their own per cell protection) to prevent them from being over discharged (kill a cell, or with some chemistries, the cells can catch fire).

    There is another website that deals with smaller Li Ion chemistries--It is a "Flashlight" website, but has a whole lot of information (and even some folks selling products) that may be of interest to you:

    http://candlepowerforums.com/

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • KnowledgeSeeker
    KnowledgeSeeker Registered Users Posts: 10
    Thank you Bill for guidance and walkthrough. I am obliged. I will go through all information you have pointed out and decide. Regards
  • PNjunction
    PNjunction Solar Expert Posts: 762 ✭✭✭
    KnowledgeSeeker said:[quote]Can I make something better than that myself in DIY? or go for one of these? No. 1 has LiFePO4 battery.[/quote]

    For now, something like that would better suit your purposes.  Going the DIY route will be more costly in the long run, and since you don't have the purchasing power to buy in quantity for quality, you may be tempted to use sub-standard trash lithium cells.

    Many of these cheap units just pop in cells from the lowest bidder, and are not using quality like Panasonic or A123.

    Take a look at the Anker PowerCore 13400:
    http://www.ianker.com/product/A1315011

    Rarely do you see any manufacturer actually disclose the brand of cells they are using, so this is refreshing.

    For stuff like this, it is hard to duplicate diy.