Solar thermal power farms

System · July 2007

Hi, I am hoping you can comment on my plan and let me know if it is unrealistic. It is in the early “daydream” phase, and I am trying to assess whether it even warrants further study. I would like to start a solar thermal power generating facility based on a “family farm” model. An owner/operator, along with a few employees, would operate and manage it. The objective would be to provide annual income for the owner and provide salaries for the employees, so a gross annual income of a couple hundred thousand a year would be needed. Several acres could be devoted to the project. Initial capital available for investment would be modest, but most of the early income could be reinvested. In the same spirit as a small farm, emphasis would be placed in doing things economically. Not quite “bailing wire and duct tape”, but a sense of thrift and a willingness to be creative.
I have an engineering background and I believe I can design and build a solar thermal system at a sufficiently low cost as to make it profitable to implement. (I know I am being very optimistic) Compared to commercial systems, it would be made from lower quality materials, and probably have reduced reliability and greater maintenance needs. This would be acceptable if initial costs were low enough, and replacement parts were cheap. (It would displease the investors to have the $250 million dollar Nevada Solar One down for a day because of cheap parts) I envision the overall project consisting of many discrete pairs of solar collectors and engines, so reliability risk would be spread out and so the project would be scalable. As income materialized, more units could be added. I am not in a favorable location for wind power, but maybe if they were build cheaply, it might be worth adding them to diversify production options.
I did some googling to see what info I could find. At first glance, it seems like it will be completely impossible to do it the way I envision. This size of venture doesn’t seem to fit economically with the needs of the power company to ensure safety and integrity to their network. It is easy if you want to do net-metering with a one-house setup, or if you are doing a large scale venture and have the capital to pay for equipment and line upgrades and you hire a support team of lawyers and engineers to get you through all the hoops. The middle guy seems left out, though, and I would think this would be the most likely group to take a chance on producing renewable energy. Plus they might bring a different kind of innovation to the table. I don’t blame the power companies, but WOW! The cost of the impact study alone is significant, let alone the costs of the transmission infrastructure your need to pay for. I have read some published impact study reports, and none of them had upgrade costs less than several million dollars. Admittedly that is for generators 5-10 times larger that what I envision, but I don’t expect it would be much more affordable. I saw one large project that required upgrades of $120 million!
Other roadblocks: Understandably, scalable doesn’t work for the power company. Any changes to your system need to go through the review process. Also non-listed systems have a tougher time getting approved than certified. Without UL ratings, the power company can’t easily gauge the extents of your system. Non-listed equipment also might have a more difficult time getting grants and other government incentives. Kind of dismal conditions to start a power farm in.
I hope my initial research is wrong and it isn’t as bad as it seems. Does anyone have any opinions? I am mainly concerned with the interconnection problem. The design problem is between me and Mother Nature, which is a fight I would enjoy, but I am unskilled in the art of swimming upstream against a bureaucracy. My pockets aren’t that deep, either. Maybe it is a misconception on my part, but it seems like there are a lot of small power generators in other countries. How do they do it? Please tell me if I have any misconceptions or have missed any other land mines. All advice is welcome and thanks in advance!

BB. · July 2007

Re: Solar thermal power farms

No, you probably will not be able to connect any generation equipment of the size you want that is not NRTL listed... The utility is going to say you will kill their personnel and the local fire marshal (if you have one) will actually unplug / red tag anything that is not NRTL (including coffee pots in some cities).

If you are in Arizona, there are a couple large scale solar installations there--you might try contacting somebody in the RE department and see what happens.

But--I would guess that they will not give you much help to build/connect this system. Energy companies want reliable power and will pay pretty good money to get it. They have wind power already which is not much help because of the variability of wind and the lack of short term variability in large nuclear and coal power plants (can't efficiently throttle power up and down with standard large scale power plants).

So, a few links:

Top 50 PV Systems in the world (contact one of the companies listed for help?)

California Independent System Operator (they run the power exchange for Ca Utilities)

Try UNLV and check out their solar thermal generator projects

Check this press release out (2005) and see what is happening with Sterling Engine Thermal generation.

Not to throw cold water on the project--but unless you have something new/exciting that you can patent and use that to get investors/utility support--I would suggest that you work with an existing, or work to create a new, solar generation project with a local university and their electrical engineering department...

To a degree, you can probably by-pass some of the issues with NRTL listing if you use a commercial Grid Tie inverter to convert your (possibly rectified) DC power into something safe and legal for the utility...

-Bill

System2 · July 2007

Re: Solar thermal power farms

Thanks for the reply.

The fire marshal and OSHA are zingers I hadn't thought of. I am not in Arizona, but I imagine there will be similar issues here.

I had a long rant written up on how government regulation stymies innovation, but I deleted it in hopes of preserving any future credibility I might gain on this board.

As far as designing solar thermal equipment goes, I realize that if I want to do it badly enough I can do it through the proper channels. The manufacturers of existing systems figured out how to do it, so I could too.

Or maybe I will just grab a six-pack and watch Sponge-Bob...

System2 · July 2007

Re: Solar thermal power farms

Other options might be to use commercial gear for the generator and everything electrical, and my ideas to provide the mechanical energy. That wouldn't solve the transmission upgrade cost problem, though.

Another option, I could build the "farm" and not connect it to the grid, but come up with some sort of power-intensive processing or manufacturing operation. I am not sure what that would be off the top of my head, but I will think about it...

System2 · July 2007

Re: Solar thermal power farms

From http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_37/b3950067_mz018.htm

Before President George W. Bush signed the federal energy bill into law on Aug. 8, he got a firsthand glimpse of a technology that could transform the deserts of the Southwest. Instead of a sandy wasteland, there would be gleaming farms with thousands of giant dish-shaped mirrors measuring 37 feet in diameter. Each dish would track the sun and focus its heat rays on an oil-barrel-size contraption suspended out in front, harnessing the heat to drive a 25-kilowatt generator.

SNIP

DAYTIME ONLY
Why hasn't Stirling Energy's technology made more of a splash in the power business? "Our dilemma has always been how to get costs down," explains Osborn. The dish assemblies now run $250,000 each. But that's because most have been handcrafted in sporadic lots of one or two units. Building a group of 40 or so would trim the cost to $150,000 each, Osborn estimates. With real mass production, that could drop by 50%.

SNIP

So when SCE said it wanted to buy more renewable energy, Osborn's outfit proposed the 500 MW project as the means of moving beyond its chicken-or-egg impasse. Producing that much electricity will require 20,000 dishes, built in a steadily increasing flow over several years. "We're ramping up now," says Osborn.

SNIP

SCE says the price it negotiated is so attractive -- "well below the 11.33 cents per kWh" it now pays for peak power -- that it won't seek any subsidies from the state.

SNIP

I don't know if you will be able to beat their estimated cost of $75k per 25kw "system", but being totally optimistic about their future manufacturing cost reductions, each dish will cost $75K. I'm not sure if that price includes the generator, let's assume that it does. Let's also say that they are paid $.05 per KW/h and give them a generous eight hours of full sun: http://www.nrel.gov/gis/images/us_csp_annual_may2004.jpg .

$.05/kwh X 25kw X 8hrs = $10.00 revenue per generator per day

$75,000.00 / $10.00 = 7500 days = 20.5 years to pay off the generator and reflector alone.

Add in capital cost, land cost, installation, maintenance, salaries, connection to the grid, etc. and by my estimation, you've got an even bigger loser. There isn't even any profit figured in yet. But you did mention that you want us to help pay for it, so the cost to you and investors would be reduced a little if we have to pick up part of the tab.

Bad Apple

System2 · July 2007

Re: Solar thermal power farms

No Apple, that is what I said I didn't want to do. I want small budgets, lower production goals, and no investors. No lawyers. No consultants. Simple and cheap. Something in the spirit of what these guys are doing in wind power
http://www.otherpower.com/bigmills1.html

Using your numbers of 8 hrs per day of sun at $.05/kwh, I would spend more on the order of magnitude of $750 on a 2.5kw system. (see the above web site and use your imagination to extrapolate to solar)

$.05/kwh X 2.5kw X 8hrs = $1.00 revenue per generator per day

$750.00 / $1.00 = 750 days = 2.05 years to pay it off.

You laugh and say "that's only $365 a year". After I get that one built I go build another one and another one. Pretty soon I have a few acres of them. Not in downtown Manhattan, but on a dry, rocky hunk of cheap Nevada desert.

Using the url you posted, I am allowed, say 6.0 kwh/m2/day for some location in Nevada. Since you gave me 8 hours a day, I am looking at .750kw/m2 of solar energy available to gather. I want my machine to put out 2.5 Kw. I am feeling extra sharp that day and I design a system that is 8% efficient, so I need around 42kw input. That would require 56 meters^2 mirror, thus 56 meters^2 of land. (don't worry, I got a good deal on some good quality mylar for $.75/m2) If I leave plenty of space between them for my rose garden, I can place 40 units per acre. I buy 20 acres for $10,900 http://www.1881.com/independencevalley20.htm (the first thing I saw via google) I save an acre for a shop, a double-wide, and a really, really big trampoline, I have 19 acres left, on which I can put 760 units. They each bring in $365 per year, so after they are paid off I have $277,400 a year gross coming. Say I have $100k in maintenance costs and hire a few employees to dust 'em off every so often. With that much money I can buy a bigger trampoline. I promote my best worker to foreman, and I start a new site somewhere else. Now I have two sites and am making $354,000 per year after expenses. I own the whole operation free-and-clear. My 2 foremen run the thing so I spend most of my time somewhere cloudy and green sipping cool beverages. And the best thing is you haven't had to pay a dime out of your pocket!! I won't mention the fact that I am saving you and your environment from a shipload of c02. The casino's would have used the power even if they had to burn eagle heads and rubber tires to get it. (You can thank me later) Things look good at this point. Maybe the price of electricity will continue to rise. Maybe I can get my efficiency closer to the 40% Nevada one gets. Maybe I let you subsidize me and I get paid a little more for my green power. Maybe I will sell the whole operation for several million.

How do you like them apples?

System2 · July 2007

Re: Solar thermal power farms

train,

"Other roadblocks:... Non-listed equipment also might have a more difficult time getting grants and other government incentives." sounded to me that you were going to try to get taxpayer dollars, my mistake.

"I won't mention the fact that I am saving you and your environment from a shipload of c02." Please don't, I do not buy into the CO2 hoax and "carbon offsets" scheme (follow the money). At today's anthropogenic CO2 emission rate, it will take almost seven years to increase concentration from 378 parts per 100,000 to 379 parts per 100,000, a pretty insignifigant increase.

"How do you like them apples?" I didn't realize you could get rocky Nevada desert for $500 per acre and Mylar for $.75 per sq meter, I say go for it and enjoy those cool drinks, the double wide and larger trampoline.

Bad Apple

System2 · July 2007

Re: Solar thermal power farms

Sorry, my mistake. I thought the URL I posted advertised 20+/- for $10,900. Oh, wait, it does. Do you not read what other people post before you respond?

http://www.htgsupply.com/viewproduct.asp?productID=48397

150'x4'=600 sq ft
600 sq ft = 55.74 sq meters
$39.95 per 55.74 sq meters = $0.71 per meter

I am very happy to take your money. In that particular example, I had not included it at that point. As far as that goes, I would let you buy my $75 million dollar reflector.

A non-believer. Me too. I say screw the polar bears. They frighten me. Although given your past history, I would say you didn't actually bother to read the c02 studies before making up your mind.

Thank you, I will enjoy them immensely. For some reason, I am thinking of something along the lines of sour apple?

I can see I have no hope of discussing the real reasons why this is a bad idea (and it's a bad idea, I am sure) Thanks for the useful comments, BB. One rotten apple really does spoil the bunch.:D

System2 · July 2007

Re: Solar thermal power farms

Bad Apple,

I apologize for my sarcastic comments.

I would be mad when the sand wore a hole through my mylar in two weeks.

'train

System2 · July 2007

Re: Solar thermal power farms

"Do you not read what other people post before you respond?"

"An owner/operator, along with a few employees, would operate and manage it. The objective would be to provide annual income for the owner and provide salaries..."

I Read that, there are two references that do not specify that you are the owner, leading me to believe you will have an investor or investors.

"Other roadblocks:... Non-listed equipment also might have a more difficult time getting grants and other government incentives."

I read that, it sounds like you want taxpayer assistance.

"I thought the URL I posted advertised 20+/- for $10,900. Oh, wait, it does."

I read that, my response was "I didn't realize you could get rocky Nevada desert for $500 per acre". Sorry if the division and rounding down from $10,900 / 20 acres threw you.

"http://www.htgsupply.com/viewproduct...roductID=48397

150'x4'=600 sq ft
600 sq ft = 55.74 sq meters
$39.95 per 55.74 sq meters = $0.71 per meter" "don't worry, I got a good deal on some good quality mylar for $.75/m2"

I read that, as acknowledged in my response "Mylar for $.75 per sq meter". Maybe it was the lexicon change from your $.75/m2 to my $.75 per sq meter that threw you this time.

"All advice is welcome..."

I read that, perhaps you meant to say "Only positive advice is welcome...".

I don't have a clue why you don't think I read your postings, if anything, you aren't reading mine.

Maybe you should have included the Otherpower website (which I've read also) in your first posting so I would have had an idea of just how low-buck you were thinking. I don't usually associate hand wound generators on junkyard Volvo spindles as being within the scope of grid tied production. I was assuming you were going to buy some components that had actually been produced in a manufacturing process somewhere other than your garage. That caused me to vastly overestimate your actual cost. As I said before, I think you should go for it.

"A non-believer. Me too. I say screw the polar bears. They frighten me. Although given your past history, I would say you didn't actually bother to read the c02 studies before making up your mind."

Like your postings, I've read plenty of studies on global warming or what people used to call "the weather". I just refuse to pay attention the ones that fail to include the sun's output in their results.

I'll let you make the last comment.

Bad Apple

System2 · July 2007

Re: Solar thermal power farms

Again, my apologies.

I misinterpreted your statement:
"I didn't realize you could get rocky Nevada desert for $500 per acre and Mylar for $.75 per sq meter"
to mean you were doubting that these items were available at that price. I wasn't quibbling about the approximation.

Owner/operator should have been written owner & operator. Imprecise language on my part.

Any advice is welcome. Especially advice which exposes the flaws.

That will be my last word.

Solar thermal power farms

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