34 cents a watt? Is this garbage? (90W Tianwei thin film panels at SunElec)

Dan_
Dan_ Solar Expert Posts: 61 ✭✭✭✭
Hi all, I'm looking for around 2kW of panels and saw at sunelec you can buy a cheap pallet of "Tianwei" 90W thin film panels. I know very little about panels so I'm asking here for opinions. Given the low price I obviously have some skepticism.

Datasheet http://sunelec.com/datasheet-library/download/sun/SUN-SF-SERIES-THIN.pdf

Comments

  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 34 cents a watt? Is this garbage? (90W Tianwei thin film panels at SunElec)

    They come with a lot of overhead, they are high voltage thin film panels, so they would typically each need it's own circuit breaker and wiring for 90 watts compared to wiring 2 or 3 - 200-250watt panels in series to a single breaker. The Sharp panel they are selling are a bit more intriguing. The have a lower VOC though still thin film panels they could be run in pairs at terminal VOC voltage at least, and have metal frames and some what higher terminal wattage.

    In general, I'd stay away from thin film at least for your first system. They are warrantied like mono/poly panels but most believe they will have shorter lives. Ones made with cadmium will be hazardous waste. They are not as efficient as mono and poly panels so they will occupy around 2x the area for the same wattage. Panels have become one of the cheaper elements of an off grid system(if that is what your looking at) . These will require a MPPT charge controller as most panels will if your looking for @2000 watt array.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Dan_
    Dan_ Solar Expert Posts: 61 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 34 cents a watt? Is this garbage? (90W Tianwei thin film panels at SunElec)

    Thanks for the reply. Im planning to use an Outback FM60 which can take 150v input. Couldn't, say, 22 panels be wired parallel for 100v-20A?

    How much space the panels take up is not personally an issue for me as I have the roof space. It would actually be a benefit as it would provide some shading and keep temps down
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: 34 cents a watt? Is this garbage? (90W Tianwei thin film panels at SunElec)

    Even if you do have the space, you will still have quite a few additional racks, cabling and interconnects PLUS considerable additional labor.

    Some of the more recent Thin Film PVs have a reasonable Max Fuse size ... something like 7 Amps max. This could allow a number of the PVs to be paralleled for each individual breaker .. depends on the specs.

    Life IS too short (ours, not necessarily theirs) for most Thin Film PVs IMO. YMMV etc, Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 34 cents a watt? Is this garbage? (90W Tianwei thin film panels at SunElec)

    They could, that means a combiner box for 22 breakers and the cost of 22 breakers.

    Your FM60 can handle 150V VOC, but these panels are rated at 136 VOC for 78(?) degrees, it will be higher when colder, not sure where your located. I think there is a panels sizing program on line for Outback, you might run the numbers through that. Also be aware that thin film panels tend to over produce for the first 6 months or so, good and bad, since part of that is a higher VOC.

    If your pricing the system, realize that you have other expenses, what will your system voltage be, battery bank? 24 volt? 48 volt? your FM60 is rated on output 60 amps at battery voltage. So a 2000 watt array charging a 24 volt battery bank has the potential of 2000/24=83 amps.

    Just be aware of the other things, not just the panel price, 22 breakers at $10-11 each, extra wire for each panel to the combiner box at $5-10 each, a very large combiner box, compared to 3 strings of 240watt panels, 3 breakers and a mini combiner box and wiring for 3 strings.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 34 cents a watt? Is this garbage? (90W Tianwei thin film panels at SunElec)

    I think those also are the simple panels with out a real frame, around the outside. I think they must be mounted with special rubber hold downs... I might be wrong but please check into this.

    Also the Sharp panels they currently only show a container price, but they have posted a similar price to the thin film panels your looking at. If you must go thin film, I would look into them, they come with an aluminum frame, I don't see a listing for mounting holes, but if it has a 'real' frame likely it can be mounted with bolts from behind, with out the added expense of special mounts.

    You can walk into a supermarket here in central Missouri and buy 3 cantaloupes for a$1, but it's not much of a bargain if you have to drive 100's of miles to get here.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • fred
    fred Registered Users Posts: 3
    Re: 34 cents a watt? Is this garbage? (90W Tianwei thin film panels at SunElec)

    Hello Dan,

    I have purchased a pallet of these tianwei panels. They will arrive within the next week or so.

    The manufacturer checks out in China ok. The manufacturer can produce 75mw of these panels a year.

    I have purchased pallets of panels from sunElec in past and everything has worked well. I have about 23kw grid tie of solar panels installed. Some are located at the office and some are at home.

    Using Unistrut, the clamps which sun electric will sell for these panels, and local labor under my direction, I am hoping to install this pallet with a grid tie inverter (Solar aurora photovoltaic inverter pvi 3.0) which i purchased on ebay.I will have midnight solar combiner boxes to connect seven strings of four each of these panels to the inverter. I will have a city permit for the install and an amendment to the contracts with the electric company Oncor and Green Mountain. The panels will be facing south and located on my detached garage at home .

    My goal is to have an installed cost below $1 per watt!

    I will do this install in November because it is too hot now.

    I am a 72 year old semi-retired mechanical engineer with ten year working for electric utilities before getting into computers.

    ROI beats anything else I can find to do at this point in the economic cycle.

    fred





    Dan_ wrote: »
    Hi all, I'm looking for around 2kW of panels and saw at sunelec you can buy a cheap pallet of "Tianwei" 90W thin film panels. I know very little about panels so I'm asking here for opinions. Given the low price I obviously have some skepticism.

    Datasheet http://sunelec.com/datasheet-library/download/sun/SUN-SF-SERIES-THIN.pdf
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 34 cents a watt? Is this garbage? (90W Tianwei thin film panels at SunElec)
    fred wrote: »
    I have purchased a pallet of these tianwei panels. They will arrive within the next week or so.
    Curious why you didn't purchase the Sharp thin film panels? I know they have been bouncing back and forth offering them at pallet levels and container levels, but their lower voltage and aluminum frames would seem to make an easier connection in strings and in mounting...

    As I said just curious.

    BTW strings of 4 will put the VOC above the maximum input voltage Aurora pvi 3.0, though they do state "Range for Power Operation" so maybe that's Okay... I'm not sure how these panels are defined. I know thin film tend to produce MORE than their rated wattage during their first 6 months or so... As an example check out the specs on the Sharp panels, they give specs at the installed point and a burned in point. This might be worth looking into...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • encinalito
    encinalito Registered Users Posts: 3
    Re: 34 cents a watt? Is this garbage? (90W Tianwei thin film panels at SunElec)

    Hi Dan
    I just bought 3 pallets from Sun Elec. I am installing them grid tie in 544voc pods in Baja. Happy to hear Fred has done the same. I will let you know how it goes.
  • encinalito
    encinalito Registered Users Posts: 3
    Re: 34 cents a watt? Is this garbage? (90W Tianwei thin film panels at SunElec)

    The reason I bought 3pallets is because of there location in Phoenix. After spending $5 a watt 7 years ago for the 3.5kw I have up this expenditure is nothing. I hope it works.
  • encinalito
    encinalito Registered Users Posts: 3
    Re: 34 cents a watt? Is this garbage? (90W Tianwei thin film panels at SunElec)

    Fred
    I like your reasons. I bought 3 pallets. They are being shipped to La Paz,Baja where I will hook them up to the grid. No permits yet. Good luck
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 34 cents a watt? Is this garbage? (90W Tianwei thin film panels at SunElec)
    encinalito wrote: »
    I like your reasons. I bought 3 pallets. They are being shipped to La Paz,Baja where I will hook them up to the grid. No permits yet. Good luck

    Hi Encinalito, I'm curious why you would buy those over the Sharp panels at the same or lower price and lower VOC, making less connection and a real frame so you wouldn't need special mounting clamps?

    I also wonder if you had seen that they also had some UL rated panels for outside US delivery (tariff on China made cells/panels) for 54 cents a watt for mono or poly cell panels?

    I would think one would be less expensive in the long run for the same technology, by a known manufacturer(Sharp), and the other might be more desirable, due to issues/questions about thin film longevity...
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • fred
    fred Registered Users Posts: 3
    Re: 34 cents a watt? Is this garbage? (90W Tianwei thin film panels at SunElec)

    hello,

    Trying to get the lowest install costs seem to be the tianwei thin film panels. At what price did you see the sharp panels?

    fred
    Photowhit wrote: »
    Curious why you didn't purchase the Sharp thin film panels? I know they have been bouncing back and forth offering them at pallet levels and container levels, but their lower voltage and aluminum frames would seem to make an easier connection in strings and in mounting...

    As I said just curious.

    BTW strings of 4 will put the VOC above the maximum input voltage Aurora pvi 3.0, though they do state "Range for Power Operation" so maybe that's Okay... I'm not sure how these panels are defined. I know thin film tend to produce MORE than their rated wattage during their first 6 months or so... As an example check out the specs on the Sharp panels, they give specs at the installed point and a burned in point. This might be worth looking into...
  • fred
    fred Registered Users Posts: 3
    Re: 34 cents a watt? Is this garbage? (90W Tianwei thin film panels at SunElec)

    attached are the spec for the inverter. seems to me its ok:Attachment not found.
    Photowhit wrote: »
    Curious why you didn't purchase the Sharp thin film panels? I know they have been bouncing back and forth offering them at pallet levels and container levels, but their lower voltage and aluminum frames would seem to make an easier connection in strings and in mounting...

    As I said just curious.

    BTW strings of 4 will put the VOC above the maximum input voltage Aurora pvi 3.0, though they do state "Range for Power Operation" so maybe that's Okay... I'm not sure how these panels are defined. I know thin film tend to produce MORE than their rated wattage during their first 6 months or so... As an example check out the specs on the Sharp panels, they give specs at the installed point and a burned in point. This might be worth looking into...
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 34 cents a watt? Is this garbage? (90W Tianwei thin film panels at SunElec)

    The Specs I saw; http://focusedenergy.net/wp-content/uploads/Power-One-Datasheet+PVI-3.0-3.6-4.2.pdf

    As I stated they "Range for power operation" and a max of 530V input, VOC is rated at 134v x 4=536v
    fred wrote: »
    Trying to get the lowest install costs seem to be the tianwei thin film panels. At what price did you see the sharp panels?

    Just looking at the total costs, in terms of the Sharp vs These, they have 'real' frames about 1 1/2 inch on the profile, These are speced at "glass-glass-laminate
    Polyvinyl butyral (PVB) thickness: 0.76 mm"
    though I think they mean 7.6MM... They do list the demesions as 6.8 mm thick. They are frameless, so they require special mounting. Though I have not seen anything on the Sharp panels that would indicate that they have mounting holes, but they do appear to have a real frame, so suspect they do.. could well be my ignorance!

    On the Total cost, The sunelec also had CSun Ul listed panels for 54 cents a watt delivered outside of the US, though the shipping would have been from the Caribbean wharehouse so that might have been prohibitive. I think these might have been a bit cheaper to mount (2/3rds the area for the same wattage) and have a more likely long term life expectancy. Link is to a Longevity study.

    The good news is Thin film tend to produce more power their first 6 months and they are reported to do better in the heat!

    Curious how many panels to a pallet? Very curious how they ship them, perhaps in a wooden crate? It does sound interesting, may be the least expensive grid tie I've heard of!
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: 34 cents a watt? Is this garbage? (90W Tianwei thin film panels at SunElec)

    I do see in your spec sheet they list an absolute max voltage of 600V so you should be Okay!
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • sabellmer
    sabellmer Registered Users Posts: 1
    Re: 34 cents a watt? Is this garbage? (90W Tianwei thin film panels at SunElec)

    I would be very interested to hear how these work for you. I was considering buying some "Very Slightly" damaged cells for a 4 KW system that I would like to build. I have made 2 small purchases of these cells before and they are in pretty good. They are approximately $.16 a watt, but I would have to assemble and fabricate the panels. This seems like a LOT less work for just about twice the price. I am not an engineer and do not have a lot of experience, but I am learning!
  • gww1
    gww1 Solar Expert Posts: 963 ✭✭
    Re: 34 cents a watt? Is this garbage? (90W Tianwei thin film panels at SunElec)

    sab......
    I built about 2000 watts of solar and my advice is you cannot build proper panels for less then you can buy them even if you pay dollar a watt.

    I used free glass and had to skrimp by not using junction boxes and frames and couldn't do it and the panels were sub standard although they still produce power.

    It was fun and I was bored but it was still a mistake and wasted energy.

    IMHO
    gww

    PS If you persist in wasting your time here is a good thread to help you have a chance of ending up with something when you are done.
    http://www.fieldlines.com/index.php/topic,145005.0.html