Trojan L16RE-B

jcheil
jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
I have the ability to get 16 Trojan L16RE-B batteries delivered to my door from a local Trojan Dealer for $4135.04 - That's about $1,000 less than any price I have found online. Does anyone know of any better pricing anywhere or is this good?

Also, I think I read somewhere on here something special to do with the "taller" batteries like the L16's? Please refresh my memory or let me know if you have them and how your luck has been.

If I go this route (still deciding, but 90% sure, just have to get the courage to write the check :) ) I'll have to up my solar to 7080watts (adding another FM80) which (from what I have learned here) should put me at a nice 10%-13% charge rate (depending on who's formula you use).

Thanks again to everyone for all of your help and support.
Jay
Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html

Comments

  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan L16RE-B

    Hi jc..

    Have not shopped RE-Bs, so cannot comment on the price that was quoted from that dealer ... Just make sure that they are fresh, with, ideally the same date code, and measure the terminal voltage, and hopefully the SG of each cell before they are shipped (again, ideally).

    L-16s are somewhat tall batteries, and as such, the story is, that they need hot, and long-ish Absorb times, because the battery eight tends to aggravate Stratification. Trojan L-16RE-Bs now ship with 1.280 SG electrolyte, which is a bit on the high side ... this also requires a somewhat higher Vabs, as well. Also, you are proposing two strings (we hope that you are retaining a 48 V battery voltage), which, as you know will require extra care to begin with good string balancing, and more balancing monitoring/work, as the batteries age.

    You DO have some experience with off-grid systems, and you are a technical person, both of these things help.

    Have fun designing and building the new system. Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan L16RE-B
    Vic wrote: »
    Hi jc..

    Have not shopped RE-Bs, so cannot comment on the price that was quoted from that dealer ... Just make sure that they are fresh, with, ideally the same date code, and measure the terminal voltage, and hopefully the SG of each cell before they are shipped (again, ideally).

    L-16s are somewhat tall batteries, and as such, the story is, that they need hot, and long-ish Absorb times, because the battery eight tends to aggravate Stratification. Trojan L-16RE-Bs now ship with 1.280 SG electrolyte, which is a bit on the high side ... this also requires a somewhat higher Vabs, as well. Also, you are proposing two strings (we hope that you are retaining a 48 V battery voltage), which, as you know will require extra care to begin with good string balancing, and more balancing monitoring/work, as the batteries age.

    You DO have some experience with off-grid systems, and you are a technical person, both of these things help.

    Have fun designing and building the new system. Vic

    Thanks, and yes, absolutely staying with the 48v and it will be 2 strings. I'd LOVE to go 2v (or forklift) but I just can't swing the $ right now or in the next couple years. So if I get the 7 years (as the warranty states) out of them I will be happy and maybe by then I could have saved enough to go with the 2v's/forklift.

    Is the new 1.280SG good for being down here in such hot weather?
    My bank stays in a "somewhat" cool room.
    Worst case in the peak of summer it might be in the mid 80's in there. The rest of the year it never gets above the mid 70's.

    Although (not to hijack my own thread), I may add another VFX inverter also since I want to go with a mini-split (multi-zone) AC next summer (or the following summer -- $ permitting) and they all seem to be 240v. Yeah I know I could get the X240 transformer, but many times in the day now I am at 2200+watts on the inverter already with only one window-ac running and I think I might be pushing my luck if I start running 2 (or VERY occasionally 3) for the next year or two. Then when I DO get the mini-split, I'm gonna need the 240 (and the extra AC wattage anyways).

    The summer this year has been brutal here. Been in the high 90's nearly every day since June. Fridge and Chest freezer (all newer EE models) are running near 75% of the time plus the girlfriend moved in, so that (kinda) doubled some energy usage (washer, TV, Computer, etc). Dang this solar stuff is addicting and expensive as all heck.
    But I wouldn't move back to the real world for anything. Living the dream right now and loving it.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,002 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan L16RE-B
    jcheil wrote: »
    I'll have to up my solar to 7080watts (adding another FM80) which (from what I have learned here) should put me at a nice 10%-13% charge rate (depending on who's formula you use).

    370 amp hours x 2strings=740amphour at 48 volts. 740 x 13%= 96.2 amps x 48 volts = 4617watts X 1.2 if using NOCT value=5540 watts, not sure how your getting to 7080 watts.

    I suspect it's more that Trojan likes a higher absorption voltage than other manufacturers. Spec Sheet
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan L16RE-B
    Photowhit wrote: »
    370 amp hours x 2strings=740amphour at 48 volts. 740 x 13%= 96.2 amps x 48 volts = 4617watts X 1.2 if using NOCT value=5540 watts, not sure how your getting to 7080 watts.

    Coot's Formula: 740ah * 48 (charging voltage) * 1/.77 (de-rating/efficiency) * .13 (charge rate) = 5996watts
    Bill's Formula: 740ah * 59 (charging voltage) * 1/.77 (de-rating/efficiency) * .13 (charge rate) = 7371watts

    I had to round (up) to 7080 since I have panels in series of 3.
    My existing array is 2460 (12 * 205watt panels), leaving me needing at minimum, 18 more (new) 220watt panels (3960 more watts) totaling 6420 watts.
    To get close to the half-way point between Bill and Coot's numbers, I would need to add another 3 panels, which puts me at 21 panles (4620 more) totaling 7080.

    Please correct me if I am mistaken or if you see an issue with this. We did discuss this in my other thread a week or so ago. I'd rather just make sure again.
    And yes, thank you regarding the info on the trojans L16's. It does appear a longer absorb/voltage is necessary.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Trojan L16RE-B

    Just remember these are maximum rates of charge based on C/8 or 12.5% recommended maximum rate of charge for a generic deep cycle battery.

    Above that rate, if you deeply cycle the batteries, the batteries can over heat at higher charge rates (typical maximum for fork lift operations) without remote battery temperature sensor. And, a larger array, the batteries will go into float long before the sun sets.

    Of course, there is the load vs solar panel vs hours of sun per day (seasonal loads and hours of sun) calculations--So don't forget those.

    A typical off grid home, we assume that most of the power is used at night and the array charges during the day. If your profile is different (say lots of day tome office/store/work/water pumping for irrigation/etc... Then the array current needs to supply "two loads"--The battery charging (5% to 13% rate of charge) and the more or less steady state day time loads for total array needs.

    If your average array is closer to 13% rate of charge, the random daytime loads are less critical vs if you run a 5% rate of charge where any daytime loads will prevent battery charging.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan L16RE-B
    BB. wrote: »
    Just remember these are maximum rates of charge based on C/8 or 12.5% recommended maximum rate of charge for a generic deep cycle battery.

    Above that rate, if you deeply cycle the batteries, the batteries can over heat at higher charge rates (typical maximum for fork lift operations) without remote battery temperature sensor. And, a larger array, the batteries will go into float long before the sun sets.

    Of course, there is the load vs solar panel vs hours of sun per day (seasonal loads and hours of sun) calculations--So don't forget those.

    A typical off grid home, we assume that most of the power is used at night and the array charges during the day. If your profile is different (say lots of day tome office/store/work/water pumping for irrigation/etc... Then the array current needs to supply "two loads"--The battery charging (5% to 13% rate of charge) and the more or less steady state day time loads for total array needs.

    If your average array is closer to 13% rate of charge, the random daytime loads are less critical vs if you run a 5% rate of charge where any daytime loads will prevent battery charging.

    -Bill

    I do have heavy (AC, irrigation, pool pump, computer/router/modem [I work from home]) loads in the daytime. So I guess I just want to make sure that I am "ok" with these numbers based on the two of your's formulas and with my final decision of 7080 watts. Like you said, I don't want to overcharge/heat them.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,431 admin
    Re: Trojan L16RE-B

    The remote battery temperature sensor will keep the battery from overheating (reduces charging voltage set points).

    Also, Lead Acid Batteries are very efficient below ~80% state of charge (very little heat generated). And over ~90% state of charge, much more of the energy is turned into heat (and hydrogen gas).

    At near 100% SOC, even 2.5% rate of charge can overheat batteries (during equalization for example).

    Another method of charging that some folks use is to cycle the battery bank between 50% and 80% state of charge. Much more efficient and you only need to take the battery over ~90% once every week or two. Batteries will not sulftate if they are daily cycling (batteries that sit below ~75% for days/weeks/months sulfate relatively rapidly).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan L16RE-B

    Note on L16 case batteries: do not scrimp on charge rate. They need to be brought up fast enough so that they can have a long Absorb time to ensure electrolyte mixing. Otherwise they will stratify and corrective EQ's will be necessary. This is far more prevalent with the tall case batteries than with standard ones, even with the equivalent Amp hour capacity.
  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan L16RE-B

    Quick update.

    Somehow I can't seem to add. It's been a long 2.5 months doing all this remodeling and upgrading.
    My total (nameplate) wattage is 7125.

    I have the chance (and room) to get 3 more of the 225w panels tomorrow which would bring me up to 7800watts.
    With the 720ah of L16RE-B batteries (at 48v), would these extra 3 panels be a waste (or a bad thing)?
    Would/Should I have to "current limit" in the Mate3?

    I am installing (3) 9000btu mini-splits this weekend so there will be a lot of daytime consumption (yes I know I said I would wait till next year for the mini-splits but decided the heck with it and just upgraded to the dual 3648 inverter/transformer 240v system now).

    Thanks again for everyone's input and suggestions.
    I hope someday I can repay the favors somehow.
    Jay
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan L16RE-B
    jcheil wrote: »
    Quick update.

    Somehow I can't seem to add. It's been a long 2.5 months doing all this remodeling and upgrading.
    My total (nameplate) wattage is 7125.

    I have the chance (and room) to get 3 more of the 225w panels tomorrow which would bring me up to 7800watts.
    With the 720ah of L16RE-B batteries (at 48v), would these extra 3 panels be a waste (or a bad thing)?
    Would/Should I have to "current limit" in the Mate3?

    I am installing (3) 9000btu mini-splits this weekend so there will be a lot of daytime consumption (yes I know I said I would wait till next year for the mini-splits but decided the heck with it and just upgraded to the dual 3648 inverter/transformer 240v system now).

    Thanks again for everyone's input and suggestions.
    I hope someday I can repay the favors somehow.
    Jay

    This is a bit confusing because the PV current limit isn't determined by the MATE but by the charge controller(s). 7800 Watts on a 48 Volt system could provide 125 Amps, which no one controller will pass. Even 7125 Watts could provide 114 Amps. So what have you got for controllers and how is the array divided up? How will you add to it?
  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan L16RE-B
    This is a bit confusing because the PV current limit isn't determined by the MATE but by the charge controller(s). 7800 Watts on a 48 Volt system could provide 125 Amps, which no one controller will pass. Even 7125 Watts could provide 114 Amps. So what have you got for controllers and how is the array divided up? How will you add to it?

    (2) FM80's:

    I am thinking, leave the existing 12x205w panels on the existing FM80 as it is now.

    The new 12x220w panels plus the new 9x225w (or 12 if I get the additional 3) on the new FM80. I know that puts me at 5160 which is technically over the 5000w limit for the FM80 at 48v but from what I read here, rarely do you get the nameplate rating except in edge-of-cloud conditions (which I have seen on my existing 2460 watt array upwards of 2600watts for a few minutes here and there).

    PS - the 220 and 225 panels are the same manufacturer and almost exactly the same specs so I think they would play well together:
    (220w vs 225w)
    VMP 30.30 and 30.36
    IMP 7.26 and 7.41
    VOC 36.36 and 36.43

    And yes, for clarification, I can program the current limit of the FM80's thru the mate3 also. Sorry, didn't mean to confuse anyone.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan L16RE-B

    Okay so twelve 205 Watt panels on one controller: 2460 Watts, about 39 Amps.

    Twelve 220 Watt panels on the other controller: 2640 Watts, about 42 Amps.
    And nine 225 Watt panels on that same controller: 2025 Watts, about 32 Amps.
    This controller array Watts 4665 and current 74 Amps, maybe 75.

    The two panels are close enough in specs to work together without any noticeable difference.

    That's 113-114 Amps peak current. Enough for 1140 Amp hours @ 48 Volts.

    If you add another three of the 225 Watt panels to that second array you'll be maxing the charge controller (possibly often) and only gaining 5 Amps really; the additional power potential will be clipped. Probably not worth the effort and expense for 5 Amps.

    If you could add to the first array that would be a different matter.
  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan L16RE-B
    If you could add to the first array that would be a different matter.

    The Spec sheet on the original 205W panels (12 of them on the first FM80) shows:

    STC
    ----
    VMP 28.1
    IMP 7.37
    VOC 33.2

    NOCT
    VMP 25.6
    IMP 5.92
    VOC 30.6

    I could certainly (space wise) put some of the 220's in that string if you think that would be ok, etc.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan L16RE-B

    It would be possible. The Voltage specs are a bit different:

    28.1 * 3 in series = 84.3
    30.3 * 3 in series = 90.9

    Difference of 6.6 Volts per string, or 7.8%.

    Since the higher Voltage string would be the smaller amount of Watts it is not likely to pull the other panels up to their Voc (thus reducing output severely).
  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan L16RE-B
    It would be possible. The Voltage specs are a bit different:

    28.1 * 3 in series = 84.3
    30.3 * 3 in series = 90.9

    Difference of 6.6 Volts per string, or 7.8%.

    Since the higher Voltage string would be the smaller amount of Watts it is not likely to pull the other panels up to their Voc (thus reducing output severely).

    So, in your professional opinion, is adding the additional 3 to the original array going to be a waste? Or more importantly, hurt anything (in the "too much current for the batteries" area)?
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan L16RE-B
    jcheil wrote: »
    So, in your professional opinion, is adding the additional 3 to the original array going to be a waste? Or more importantly, hurt anything (in the "too much current for the batteries" area)?

    If you add three of the 220 Watt panels to the first array it will bring the total there to 3120 Watts and the current up to 50 Amps. Together with the 75 Amps from the second array that's 125 Amps.

    Your battery specs are, I think, 375 Amp hours and you have two parallel strings: 750 Amp hours total. If this is not correct then it changes things.

    125 Amps on 750 Amp hours is (125 * 100 / 750) a 16% charge rate and that would be fairly high. You might never actually see that much or at least not that much going in to the batteries due to concurrent loads.

    If the battery capacity is different, plug it in the the formula above and see what percentage rate you get. Remember that loads will draw against this, but at that charge rate they probably won't be significant.

    The 114 Amps would be (114 * 100 / 750) 15%. Ordinarily that would be a stopping point. Are you sure you need all those panels? (There's a question I hardly ever ask!)
  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
    Re: Trojan L16RE-B
    Your battery specs are, I think, 375 Amp hours and you have two parallel strings: 750 Amp hours total. If this is not correct then it changes things.
    Trojan States 370ah on the L16RE-B so with the 2 strings, that would be 740ah (rather than 750ah) - Minimal difference.
    125 Amps on 750 Amp hours is (125 * 100 / 750) a 16% charge rate and that would be fairly high. You might never actually see that much or at least not that much going in to the batteries due to concurrent loads.

    The 114 Amps would be (114 * 100 / 750) 15%. Ordinarily that would be a stopping point. Are you sure you need all those panels? (There's a question I hardly ever ask!)

    Well, I run a pool pump 8 hours a day, Fridge and Chest Freezer, plus the (3) new 9000BTU mini-splits will be running 24/7 (highest usage will be in the daytime) and a computer and DVR security system 24/7 which draws 200w all the time, so I guess I was just figuring that the "extra" (for the minimal cost difference) would be consumed by the loads. If it was a matter of having to buy another controller, etc, then I agree, I would not do it, but at this point, I have room on the controller and the panels are so cheap I guess I will consider it "insurance". I just wanted to make sure I was not going to be in the "danger-zone" as far as too much current. I know someone else on here (can't remember who) has EXCESSIVE panels (to the point of being well into the danger-zone). But, it looks to me that I am going to be safe based on your numbers. Plus from what I see, I can set a GLOBAL charging maximum in the MATE3 which "should" limit TOTAL current from ALL charging sources (if I am reading the documents correctly).

    Thank you VERY much for your valuable assistance and everyone else who helped me in the past.
    Will post pictures in about a week or two when it is all up and running!
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html