Need advice building a system

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Aragon
Aragon Registered Users Posts: 7
Hello everyone. I am writing from San Ramón, Nicaragua, a rural agricultural area in the middle of the country. My spouse and I built a nice 2 bedroom, 2 bath house here, with a cistern that collects rainwater for our water needs. (There is no city water here). However, there is an electrical grid and we assumed that we could connect up to it and meet our electricity needs. This turned out to be a failed assumption. Electricity is sporadic and unstable (voltage fluctuates all over the place).

We have lived for over two years on a gravity-fed water system, in which water is pumped up to a tank and then trickles into the house. Suffice it to say that we do not like it. When we built our house, we decided that we would install a well pump with a pressure tank, so that we would have good water pressure. Thus, we bought a 1.5 HP, 120V, 8.3 amp pump. However, we soon realized that the pump will not run on the poor excuse for an electrical grid that we have here. So . . . we are stuck. We built a house that we cannot move into, because we have no water. The cistern is full. We just need to be able to get the water to our faucets.

The electric company has informed us that in order to approach the problem they will need for us to purchase a transformer and associated systemic components. It would mean an investment of about $12,000 USD (or more). However, they cannot guarantee that it will solve the problem and the equipment would become the property of the electric company and we would receive no compensation for our "donation."

Thus, we have turned to exploring solar with a couple of providers here. Since there is just two of us and we both work outside the home, we estimate that pump usage will average about 2-3 hours per day. Unfortunately, we are not getting satisfactory advice. Each person that we talk to has a different story. For example, one guy told us that we needed 12 - 200 watt solar panels and 12 - 385 amp/hour batteries to do the job for a cost of about $14,000 installed. This would run the water pump and a refrigerator that is rated at using 380 kw per year. This guy's estimate makes no sense to me. Others have said they could do it with 4 - 200 watt panels and a smaller battery bank. Many have advised that we get a different water pump (which they just happen to carry). However, this would require going the gravity water route, pumping water up to a tank maybe once per day. I have already expressed my dissatisfaction with gravity-fed water. But that is what people know here, so sellers always seem to go in that direction. Then, for some unknown reason, many feel that the problem is that I have a pump with a small pressure tank. This seems like BS to me. I could understand if they said that a 1.5 HP pump was the problem. We might have gone overboard on that, thinking that we wanted a pump that could handle showers in both bathrooms simultaneously. However, these guys are focused on the pressure tank. In my mind, the pump does not care what it is pumping into.

Sorry to ramble on, but I wanted everyone to know the context. We need electricity! We probably can deal with the grid (and candles) for lights, but the pump is a necessity. We need a reliable and stable source of electricity to run it. Can someone here please give me a ball park idea regarding the system size I need to run the pump? We are trying to start with that and then build up to an off-grid system with wind and solar eventually. However, we need the pump now.

Thanks!

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  • Cariboocoot
    Cariboocoot Banned Posts: 17,615 ✭✭✭
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    Re: Need advice building a system

    The pump is a problem. Unless you are pumping from a deep well (over 100') you shouldn't need such a large pump. I can't imagine running a 1.5 HP pump from 120 VAC either: the running current would be around 10 Amps (you said 8.3) and the start-up surge would be killer; possibly 50 Amps. 120 VAC just isn't meant to supply that kind of power. Any chance this can be switch to 240 VAC?

    Pumping from a ground-level cistern full of rain water? What kind of distance/height/pipe size are we talking about? It seems to me that a 1/2 HP jetpump would be more than adequate unless there is something unusual about the installation.

    Modern plumbing fixtures do not need 10 GPM flow rates either. You can mitigate most pressure/flow problems with a large enough pressure tank. What size tank did you get? Sounds like someone sold you a big pump and a small motor, which is exactly the opposite of what you need.

    The solar system size estimates seem to be pulled out of a hat too. Twelve 200 Watt panels? That's 2400 Watts and would probably give about 7kW hours AC power down there. Twelve 385 Amp hour batteries of what Voltage? Sounds like he just likes to sell things by the dozen.

    Four 200 Watt panels is about the other extreme. I got by on 700 Watts for several years and decided to expand to make things a bit easier.

    The refrigerator estimate is normal: works out to about 1kW hour per day. Might run higher in a hot climate.

    So if we can get the plumbing sorted out and get a realistic estimate for daily Watt hour use I'm sure we can come up with a design that actually meets your needs based on calculations, not guesswork.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Need advice building a system

    Tell us more about the plumbing. What size pipe do they use down there? 3/4 inch is normal here for in house main supply lines, it used to be 1/2 inch...the 1/2 inch is now the size used for taps etc,... and there is nothing wrong with the elevated tank, all it needs is a small pump to increase the pressure, similar to an RV pump but a bit more robust.
    What size is the pressure tank? we have a 40 gal (total volume) for our house, we used to have a 20 gal tank for ~30 years ans with changes over the years we went bigger.
    How deep is the well?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • animatt
    animatt Solar Expert Posts: 295 ✭✭✭
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    Re: Need advice building a system

    Have a house in mexico. Similiar water situation here. Top of Tank is even with ground level and there is a submerible pump in the tank.

    It serves a 3 story house. Several people said we needed a minimum of 1 hp pump. We did not listen and went with a .5hp pump and we can get about 55psi in first floor of house. I think people are not used to submerible pumps and treat them like above ground pumps, and oversize them.

    Submersible is very nice as they are quiet. It cost us about 350 usd if i remember correctly.

    We have about 30 gallon pressure tank, our pump is 220v as was available, but i would imagine 110v pump at .5hp would not be bad either. A bigger pressure tank is nice so the pump doesn't cycle on and off too much.

    This should solve your problems. And is inexpensive to implement.
    Forgot to mention our main water line from pump to the house is 1.25" then splits down to 3/4" for hot and 3/4" cold. Purposefully large to avoid excessive pressure drop.

    Matthew
  • Aragon
    Aragon Registered Users Posts: 7
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    Re: Need advice building a system

    Thanks for your quick reply and help. Here are the specifications for the pump provided by the manufacturer (Truper - México). It is listed as 1.5 HP, 1120 watts, 120 V/60 Hz, 8.3 amps. It pumps at 3450 rpm/60 liters per minute from a maximum depth of 8 meters to maximum height of 42 meters. Tank capacity is 24 liters and it will serve up to 6 water outlets simultaneously. The motor type is “jet” and it is designed to work a maximum of 6 hours with a cycle of 50 minutes of work and 20 minutes of rest.

    In the tropics, pcv pipe is used almost exclusively. The pipes in our house are 1/2 inch. The cistern is underground and has a depth of about 1.7 meters. The pipe from the cistern to the pump is 1 inch.

    We are about 12.8 degress north of the equator, so the sun angle is overhead nearly 365 days per year. From what I have heard, our biggest challenge is not direct sun but preventing panels from overheating from too much sun. The sellers that I have talked to here make their estimates based upon 5 or 5.5 hours of direct sunlight per day. However, the national weather service here says that it is 7 to 7.5 hours per day. This probably is accurate for the dry season (January - April), but it probably is a little less during the wet season (May - December) due to rain clouds.

    We also have a good potential for wind power generation on the property. However, I am a little hesitant to base our system on it because the wind can be irregular.

    I hope that this helps.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Need advice building a system

    Good. Now how deep is the well, its static water level , pump depth, and the distance from the well to that cistern?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Aragon
    Aragon Registered Users Posts: 7
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    Re: Need advice building a system

    There is no well. We harvest rainwater from the rooftop. Since we have an annual rainfall of between 2.0-2.4 meters, there is an abundant supply. The pump that we have is not submersible. Depth of the water level in the cistern is about 1.6 meters, with another 100 centimeters of free-board. The cistern is located on the southwest side of the house.
  • animatt
    animatt Solar Expert Posts: 295 ✭✭✭
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    Re: Need advice building a system
    westbranch wrote: »
    Good. Now how deep is the well, its static water level , pump depth, and the distance from the well to that cistern?


    Pressure tank at 24 liters seems excessively small. But doubt that is your problem. What are the actual symptom of the problem. Or why do you believe there is a problem.

    In my offgrid property

    I have the 1hp 120v truper pump. Max height operation of 42m. Works great in its offgrid install. Although i do not use it for a pressure pump. I just pump to cistern. I run it of 1500w cotek 24v inverter. It is connect with 10awg wire with a wire run of 100m.

    It is mounted 8 meters from surface with about 2 meters of water above the pump.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Need advice building a system

    Sorry, I misread your posts, somehow the fact that the pump is submersible stuck in my brain...
    As Animatt said that is a very small pressure tank, but it should work, if the power is constant enough. do you have access to a generator that can power that 1.5 HP jet pump. Those are known as 'jet pumps' up here, like one of these 1/2 and 3/4 HP jet is not the brand but the type or model... they are prone to suction problems at times and quite inefficient for solar use...
    does the intake pipe come out of a fitting in the side wall off the cistern or out the top?
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada
  • Aragon
    Aragon Registered Users Posts: 7
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    Re: Need advice building a system

    Ok. From the responses, it seems that I need to buy a different pump. I have been trying to avoid this because the one I have cost me about $250 and I do not like wasting money. I cannot take it back because I installed it, so it no longer is new. In any event, can anyone recommend a pump that I should get. To refresh your memory, there is just the two of us. We would use the pump for daily showers, toilet flushing, hand washing, dish washing (by hand) and to run a clothes washer about once a week. The pump would have to send water from our cistern to the house.

    Thanks!
  • animatt
    animatt Solar Expert Posts: 295 ✭✭✭
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    Re: Need advice building a system

    1/2 hp pump with franklin electric motor. But Before you go buy something i woild suggest you explain what exactly does not work and why you Think so. Your description of not working is vague and i would hate for you to spend more money and not fix the problem. Better description would help to better diaganose issue.

    I have very little knowledge about pumps other than the ones that work for me. A 3 wire pump i believe allows softer starts vs a 2 wire pump, but that would require a ln additional controller. If power is that bad maybe 3.wire would help. Anything over .5hp would be oversizing the pump.
  • ILFE
    ILFE Solar Expert Posts: 364 ✭✭
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    Re: Need advice building a system
    Aragon wrote: »
    There is no well. We harvest rainwater from the rooftop. Since we have an annual rainfall of between 2.0-2.4 meters, there is an abundant supply. The pump that we have is not submersible. Depth of the water level in the cistern is about 1.6 meters, with another 100 centimeters of free-board. The cistern is located on the southwest side of the house.

    Aragon,

    I make no claims on knowing any more - and most likely know a heck of a lot less, than others on this forum. However, logic tells me that, once you get this pump sorted, you are going to need an inverter to connect to your solar array (and batteries) in order to run the thing. So, let me tell you what we did. Maybe there is a solution in here for you, somewhere?

    First, I am an American who lives in Cambodia, located about 12.98° North Latitude and a tad East of you. :D

    My g/f has a farm 30 kilometers out of town where no mains are available anywhere nearby (~5 km away). We wanted to make the house there a bit more western, so I could stay there without having to worry about coming back to the city after a day trip. (It's amazing how nice power, pressurized running water and a proper toilet and shower make living.)

    So, we added rainwater harvesting, a solar array and batteries, a 12vdc, 3.0 GPM (11 LPM) ShurFlo Revolution (Model 4008), 55 PSI pump, and a bathroom to run the rainwater to. All this was (primarily) for me to have that proper toilet and shower. (Not to mention, it gets a bit old showering outside, after a while.) Anyway, late last year, I had the Shurflo pump and a 50 micron strainer shipped to me for considerably less than what you paid for your current pump:

    Pump: $74.95
    Strainer: $12.95
    Shipping & Handling: $58.45
    Actual Shipping cost: $53.45
    USPS Priority International Mail

    Total customs duty: $2.00

    Grand Total: $148.35

    By the way, that pump comes in 24vdc as well. I would suggest going with the higher voltage, if it is going to be the main reason for setting up a solar array.

    Attachment not found. Attachment not found. Attachment not found.
    The fittings on the pump and strainer are 1/2" NPT.

    Attachment not found. Attachment not found. Attachment not found.

    What I am getting at here is, my 12v pump only calls for a 10 amp breaker / fuse. If you were to go 24v, the fuse protection would be down 5 - 6 amps. Mate, this little pump may not look like much. But, if you know anything about campers in the US, these very same little pumps have been installed in camper trailers for a very, very long time. They are pretty reliable. We run the heck out of ours at the farm, and it keeps on keepin' on. I am pretty certain my pump is going to give me many years of reliable service.

    While you are away, since both of you work, you could wire a switch to the pump in case the water pipes burst for any reason. That would stop it from pumping the cistern dry - since it is a pressure on demand pump. (That's what we do with ours.) Otherwise, while you are there, leave it switched on, and you will have water on demand every time you open a tap, flush a toilet, or jump in the shower. (You could add a pressure tank in line as well. We do not have one on ours, though.)

    So, by going with a 24vdc Shurflo pump, in my opinion, you would be saving costs.
    1. You wouldn't have to buy a voltage inverter for the solar array.
    2. You would be running a pump that would be drawing fewer amperes.
    3. That would lead to a considerably smaller solar array and battery bank.

    Lastly, spare pump parts, if you choose to do so, could be purchased at the time you order the pump.

    Just a thought.
    Paul
  • animatt
    animatt Solar Expert Posts: 295 ✭✭✭
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    Re: Need advice building a system

    I believe he will not go solar if he does not need to. He is connected to grid. It is just not running his pump. His description needs more detail. But there will be no solar or batteries if he gets this straightened out.
  • ILFE
    ILFE Solar Expert Posts: 364 ✭✭
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    Re: Need advice building a system
    animatt wrote: »
    I believe he will not go solar if he does not need to. He is connected to grid. It is just not running his pump. His description needs more detail. But there will be no solar or batteries if he gets this straightened out.

    Well, I live in a country not unlike Nicaragua. Cambodia's electric is quite similar in various areas. If he wants stable, reliable power, he should seriously consider going with solar. Power like he describes has a tendency to ruin appliances of all kinds. I feel it is worth the expense to produce his own - clean, reliable power for his pump. Just my opinion of course. But, I am looking down the road, when he has to replace that burned up pump motor, because of the mains power there.

    By the way he sounds here, he is pretty open to solar:
    Aragon wrote: »
    We need electricity! We probably can deal with the grid (and candles) for lights, but the pump is a necessity. We need a reliable and stable source of electricity to run it. Can someone here please give me a ball park idea regarding the system size I need to run the pump? We are trying to start with that and then build up to an off-grid system with wind and solar eventually. However, we need the pump now.
    Paul