Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.

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TucsonAZ
TucsonAZ Solar Expert Posts: 139 ✭✭
I'm attaching a picture of the system I'm putting together, this is going into a RV I'm making (from an old bread truck) with the goal of being able to be primarily off grid. I just want somebody to confirm I'm on the right path, not missing anything and also not spending money I don't need to spend. I'm open to suggestions and input, this has been one hell of a learning curve that's for sure. I would like to order this week and install next week if I can pull that off so hopefully I have this close.

My power usage won't be "huge":

1) A modified 3.3cuft chest freezer that will be running at roughly 0.5 kwh a day (I'm adjusting it to run at about 30 degrees)
2) Some phone, laptop, ipad chargers
3) 24v water pump
4) A handful of 24v LED lights
5) Wireless router
6) A fan or two
7) Maybe a toaster oven (30 minutes a day) but I will adjust based on the power I have available.

I will be in varied areas, from Seattle to Arizona so the sun I'm getting will fluctuate.

Thank you VERY MUCH for the help and input!

Attachment not found.

Comments

  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.
    TucsonAZ wrote: »
    I'm attaching a picture of the system I'm putting together, this is going into a RV I'm making (from an old bread truck) with the goal of being able to be primarily off grid. I just want somebody to confirm I'm on the right path, not missing anything and also not spending money I don't need to spend. I'm open to suggestions and input, this has been one hell of a learning curve that's for sure. I would like to order this week and install next week if I can pull that off so hopefully I have this close.
    Sounds like a fun project...

    The way you've drawn it, it looks like the solar panels are combined before the combiner. You won't be able to fit #2 wire into the Classic. I don't see any circuit breakers, but I presume they are all in the mndc175. You need one for the inverter input, and one for the Classic output. Usually there is one for the PV input to the classic, but if the combiner is close enough to the mndc175, you can probably just use the three breakers to shut down the PVs.

    I especially don't like parallel batteries in general, and problems with parallel are even worse with AGM batteries because of their lower internal resistance.

    Four golfcart batteries in series will give you just about the same capacity for half the price (or less), will last longer, and can be monitored with an hydrometer.

    I would suggest you buy a battery monitor and shunt. I'm not sure the shunt will fit into the mndc175. Also, if you have a shunt you can use Midnite's whizbang jr.

    Lastly, I'm concerned about your battery cables... I think #2 may be a bit small... what inverter are you planning to buy? The inverter will have recommended sizes for cable and circuit breaker.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.
    TucsonAZ wrote: »
    7) Maybe a toaster oven (30 minutes a day) but I will adjust based on the power I have available.

    If you can avoid the toaster oven you will be saving a lot of power and would be able to keep your size down.
    Remember a 1500w toaster for 30 mins is .75kwh. With 250ah of batteries (125ah usable at 50%) that's 1/8th of your power being used up in 30 minutes.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • TucsonAZ
    TucsonAZ Solar Expert Posts: 139 ✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.
    vtmaps wrote: »
    Sounds like a fun project...

    The way you've drawn it, it looks like the solar panels are combined before the combiner. You won't be able to fit #2 wire into the Classic. I don't see any circuit breakers, but I presume they are all in the mndc175. You need one for the inverter input, and one for the Classic output. Usually there is one for the PV input to the classic, but if the combiner is close enough to the mndc175, you can probably just use the three breakers to shut down the PVs.

    I especially don't like parallel batteries in general, and problems with parallel are even worse with AGM batteries because of their lower internal resistance.

    Four golfcart batteries in series will give you just about the same capacity for half the price (or less), will last longer, and can be monitored with an hydrometer.

    I would suggest you buy a battery monitor and shunt. I'm not sure the shunt will fit into the mndc175. Also, if you have a shunt you can use Midnite's whizbang jr.

    Lastly, I'm concerned about your battery cables... I think #2 may be a bit small... what inverter are you planning to buy? The inverter will have recommended sizes for cable and circuit breaker.

    --vtMaps

    Thank you for taking the time to respond, I have spent 100s of hours learning all of this so I really appreciate you taking the time to help.

    Solars are seriesed (2 at a time) on the roof, with the three positives (48v each) and negatives running directly into the combiner box which will be mounted directly next to the Classic 150, I was assuming I could use the 3 breakers in the combiner to isolate the three banks of panels from the CC or take them (one or all three) out of service for whatever reason.

    I presumed the Classic output goes to the top terminal of the disconnect on the MNDC175 the lower goes to the battery as well as the breakers (via ring connectors and 3 wires connected to the bottom terminal), one for the inverter, another one (or two) for my 24v items like the water pump, lights and so on. The MNDC175 will be mounted on the other side of the Classic 150 so all three will be side by side.

    The kicker is I already have the batteries and they need to be inside of the unit, I thought about just going 48v but that comes with all new issues for compatibility with the biggest being finding an affordable 48v inverter and water pump. If I were going over 2,000 watts of solar I would have gone 48v but with what I have 24v seemed the wiser choice.

    I was either going to mount the shunt in the MNDC175 (there is room) or next to the batteries (would shorten the negative by about 8 feet) and from what I understand the Classic 150 will act as a battery monitor as the Classic comes with the Whiz bang.

    I don't have an inverter at the moment, not even sure what to get, I may just buy what I can find a deal on and upgrade if need be/when the time comes.
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.
    TucsonAZ wrote: »
    I was either going to mount the shunt in the MNDC175 (there is room) or next to the batteries (would shorten the negative by about 8 feet) and from what I understand the Classic 150 will act as a battery monitor as the Classic comes with the Whiz bang.

    Put the shunt in the MNDC175. The wire from the whizbangJr to the classic need to be as short as possible... a few folks have tried to lengthen it with varying results. A longer wire tends to pick up electrical noise.
    I would have gone 48v but with what I have 24v seemed the wiser choice.
    I totally agree.
    I don't have an inverter at the moment, not even sure what to get, I may just buy what I can find a deal on and upgrade if need be/when the time comes.
    Figure it out before you spend money on the other items... make sure you buy the correct wiring and breakers for the inverter. Have you considered an inverter/charger?

    Speaking of which... do you have a generator? Do you have a way to charge the batteries from shore power or generator?

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.

    If your organized in small quarters, and connections will all be close together, you could forgo the combiner box and use Mini Dc 175 plus box and combine your incoming array there! This would save you a few dollars and some space.

    I'm the proud new owner of the ExelTech XP1100 and have been happy with it so far, it can be hard wired and might be all you need. I hope to use it as a backup for my 1800 watt inverters since it will run my A/C and fridge with out a problem. Around $600 at NAWS

    2 gauge will not work in the classic, 4 gauge wasn't any fun! It might be fine for your inverter depending on size and run, likely you'll want the inverter close and run the AC longer distances, on 24 volt likely you'll be fine for a couple feet.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.

    Jchell,

    Is this an RV, "work trailer", or moving a fixed system from place to place?

    If you are going to be "up north", some method to tilt the array for winter is going to be important.

    Power usage--You could be looking at 1.5 kWH per day pretty easily (laptop and router, satellite?--can easily push close to 1 kWH or more if used a lot during the day).

    Since we don't really have loads--And assuming this is going to be a reasonably full time off grid power system, using our nominal rules of thumbs--See how it looks (note, for an RV, battery may be 1/2 the size because of weight/size limitations--which does limit life and surge capacity somewhat--But 1/2 the battery buying 2x as often--the costs will be similar--AGMs have very good surge, so that is in your "favor").

    Starting with 250 AH @ 24 volt battery bank. 2 days of storage, 50% maximum discharge:
    • 250 AH * 24 volts * 0.85 AC inverter eff * 1/2 days * 0.50 max discharge =1,275 Watt*Hours per day nominal

    So, the battery bank is a bit on the small size--For what I would recommend for a full time/off grid system... For a portable system, it is probably what you have to live with.

    Charging current of 5-13% rate of charge--10%+ is "very nice" for full time off grid:
    • 250 AH * 29 volts charging * 1/0.77 panel+controller derating * 0.10 rate of charge = 942 Watt array

    6x 280 Watt of panels (?) = 1,680 Watt array

    You could support, pretty easily (with power left over) for a larger battery bank:
    • 1,680 Watt * 1/29 volts charging * 0.77 panel+controller derating * 1/0.10 rate of charge = 446 AH @ 29 volt battery bank

    To size a battery bank for 2 days of off grid and 50% maximum discharge--A "nominal" average discharge rate of 20 hours:
    • 250 AH * 24 volts * 1/20 hour discharge * 0.85 inverter eff = 255 Watt AC "nominal" average load
    • 250 AH * 24 volts * 1/8 hour discharge * 0.85 inverter eff = 638 Watt AC "nominal" maximum load
    • 250 AH * 24 volts * 1/5 hour discharge * 0.85 inverter eff = 1,020 Watt AC maximum short term continuous load
    • 250 AH * 24 volts * 1/2.5 hour discharge * 0.85 inverter eff = 2,040 Watt AC max surge load

    The above are for Flooded Cell batteries--AGMs can do "better"--But there is really no reason to push the above limits most times--It requires much heavier cabling and is stressful on the batteries.

    And then there is how much average daily power you can "expect" from your solar array. Assuming a minimum of 4 hours of sun (typical 9 months minimum, may not be true in coastal Washington state):

    1,680 Watt array * 0.52 AC system derating * 4 hours of sun = 3,494 Watt*Hours of 120 VAC per "sunny" day

    If you use ~1,275 Watt*Hours (fix because of 12/24 volt error) at night, that leaves you a lot of "extra power" you can use during the day (computer/work hours/etc.)... So, you do have a question of day/night split of power. For off grid homes, typically power usage is very low during the day (out working) and peaks in the evening... 24 hour loads (like fridge) and office loads (computers/network/printer) during the day can "play" with battery sizing assumptions.

    One reason to not assume "daytime" power loads is that if you need to work during the day and cannot shutdown during bad weather or run a genset (like putting off clothes washing, water pumping, etc.) as you would do for a residence.

    Which brings us to a genset--Assuming somewhere around 10 to 20% nominal charging current and worst case battery charger design (Iota's are not very generator friendly):
    • 250 AH * 29 volts * 0.10 rate of charge * 1/0.80 charger eff * 1/0.80 light duty genset derating = 1,122 VA rated genset for ~25 amp @ 24 volt charger
    • 250 AH * 29 volts * 0.20 rate of charge * 1/0.80 charger eff * 1/0.80 light duty genset derating = 2,266 VA rated genset for ~50 amp @ 24 volt charger

    The first one is just about the limit for a Honda eu2000i genset... (check with Iota retailer to make sure OK with smaller genset)

    If you go with a "larger" battery bank, it does make the charger/generator bigger:
    • 446 AH * 29 volts * 0.10 rate of charge * 1/0.80 charger eff * 1/0.80 light duty genset derating = 2,021 VA rated genset for ~45 amp @ 24 volt charger
    • 446 AH * 29 volts * 0.20 rate of charge * 1/0.80 charger eff * 1/0.80 light duty genset derating = 4,042 VA rated genset for ~90 amp @ 24 volt charger

    If you want to keep with a smaller Honda eu2000i genset and an Iota type charger, you are probably looking at a 20 amp @ 24 volt charger--Probably a bit on the small size for

    Anyway--The paper side of the system design/capabilities. You could also look at "Generator Support" capable Inverter/Chargers too--Would make the whole backup generator (and possible grid power) much more transparent and support larger loads when needed (if needed).

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.
    BB. wrote: »
    Starting with 250 AH @ 24 volt battery bank. 2 days of storage, 50% maximum discharge:
    • 250 AH * 12 volts * 0.85 AC inverter eff * 1/2 days * 0.50 max discharge = 638 Watt*Hours per day nominal

    A rare Bill mistake? I do of course doubt myself... being wrong more often...lol
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.

    If only my mistakes were so "rare"--I like to think of them as "well done". :p

    Off to fixing the post. Thank you Photowhit.

    -Bill "I show my work" B. :blush:
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • Vic
    Vic Solar Expert Posts: 3,208 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.

    Hi Tucson.,

    Just to be clear on the Classic's Output breaker. The Classic must have its own breaker on the output to the battery. The current rating of this breaker should be sized to protect the cable on the output, and be large enough support the Classic's output current on your system. When updating the Classic's Firmware, the battery power to it must be switched off, and back on, so a breaker serves to protect the cable, and act as a switch.

    The Classic terminals can accept #4 AWG cable, but do not use fine-stranded cable here, as fine stranded cable is a bit larger in diameter, and will not fit. Also, fine cable may not work well with screw terminals.

    Using the MidNite String Sizing Tool may help you choose cable and breaker sizes for the Classic output -- it is very easy to use:
    http://www.midnitesolar.com/sizingTool/displaySizing.php

    Have fun with this project. Vic
    Off Grid - Two systems -- 4 SW+ 5548 Inverters, Surrette 4KS25 1280 AH X2@48V, 11.1 KW STC PV, 4X MidNite Classic 150 w/ WBjrs, Beta KID on S-530s, MX-60s, MN Bkrs/Boxes.  25 KVA Polyphase Kubota diesel,  Honda Eu6500isa,  Eu3000is-es, Eu2000,  Eu1000 gensets.  Thanks Wind-Sun for this great Forum.
  • TucsonAZ
    TucsonAZ Solar Expert Posts: 139 ✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.

    Wow, thank you all super much!! This is very affirming that I'm on the right path. With my first system, it became clear quickly I was going to make mistakes so I figured I would just get started making them and see how it played out, hopefully none too costly.

    The one thing I'm unclear about, the output from the Classic 150 will go where in this system? One lug of the disconnect on the MNDC175 seemed like the logical choice but my logic is often flawed.

    Thanks to posters like you, I have saved myself a ton of trial and error and mistakes, just going to a 48/24v system in itself is a life saver!

    As for the batteries, I am MAXED OUT on this budget wise so new batteries are not an option, I got 5 of those AGMs at a super good price and can upgrade when I need to. I may be able to get one more of them, I would have to see, that would give me 6 total.

    For my power usage, I'm going to have to learn and adjust as I go, I know in Southern Arizona I will be generating excess power most of the time, so the battery bank will be upgraded when I have the funds. If I run the current batteries too low and shorten their life, I'm okay with that, they're my batteries for experimenting and getting past the solar learning curve. I won't be able to calculate my usage as well as I would like until I'm finished and actually get out there.

    I haven't given a ton of thought on shore power but will add that to the plan, I don't know how often I will have it but it will be useful when I need it. I won't be in the PNW during the winter, I will be chasing the nice weather but obviously I'm going to have some cloudy days no matter what so I should be prepared for those.

    I should be plenty set on the GVWR with room to spare though I haven't weighed out my build yet, I will get it on a scale while I'm out on the road. I got an old Entenmann's truck on a P30 chassis, I emptied out a lot but should have about 3,000-4,000 pounds I can comfortably add with my build.
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.
    TucsonAZ wrote: »
    The one thing I'm unclear about, the output from the Classic 150 will go where in this system? One lug of the disconnect on the MNDC175 seemed like the logical choice but my logic is often flawed.

    The output of the Classic goes directly to a circuit breaker (not the 175 amp breaker). If the breaker is a midnite din rail breaker it will have plus and minus markings... connect the classic output to the minus side of the breaker. The plus side of the breaker goes to battery positive. Anything and everything connected to the battery must pass through a circuit breaker.

    You are probably aware that a short circuit of a battery is extremely dangerous. The battery should be in a box to protect it from conductive objects falling on it. Some folks put a class T fuse inside the battery box to protect against catastrophe. The other option is to run the battery cables in conduit to the mndc box, where circuit breakers reside.

    btw, if you have any room to spare, I suggest you get the stretched version of the mndc175. Here is a quote from the installation instructions of the regular mndc175:
    Due to the small size of this box and limited wire bending room, it is required that the super flexible type battery cable be utilized. Cobra Cable X-Flex is one approved type of cable. Welding cable although not listed for use in residential wiring will also meet the flexibility requirement. Wiring for the din rail mount breakers such as 6AWG for PV circuits may be the stiff THHN or similar type of wire.

    For a first time diy installation, you might appreciate a bit more room in the box. Be sure to order the $36 shunt... it's a lot easier to install it when the box is not already crowded.

    btw, have you checked out the Midnite forums?

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.
    vtmaps wrote: »
    btw, if you have any room to spare, I suggest you get the stretched version of the mndc175. Here is a quote from the installation instructions of the regular mndc175:
    --vtMaps

    ABSOLUTELY get the stretched version of the ePanel. it is SO worth the extra few $.
    I wish I had got the stretched version, it was VERY tight getting everything in the regular version.
    Granted I added 2 additional shunts where one set of breakers could have gone, but even without that it is TIGHT!
    Attachment not found.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.
    jcheil wrote: »
    ABSOLUTELY get the stretched version of the ePanel. it is SO worth the extra few $.

    TucsonAZ is not looking at ePanels (although some day he may wish he had). He is looking at a "mini DC Disconnect".

    Tucson, the ePanel has much more room than the MNDC you are looking at. It can handle your DC and AC breakers. It is designed so the inverter attaches to the door of the ePanel and the breakers are on the side. An ePanel with inverter mounted on door may take up less wall space than the MNDC with the inverter mounted along side it.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • Photowhit
    Photowhit Solar Expert Posts: 6,003 ✭✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.

    Just to clarify Midnite makes a

    Mini DC Disconnect

    Attachment not found.

    Mini DC Disconnect PLUS (I think this is what some are calling a stretch, though I think Midnite actually uses stretch for some of their E-panels) These have 2 sets of DIN rails and in my opinion would be ideal in this situation, since the extra din rail could be used like a 'combiner box'

    Attachment not found.

    And E-Panels which are even larger and include places for AC and ground fault breakers. My Epanel is in essence a large DC disconnect, having no AC breakers, just 3 incoming breakers from 3 arrays, 3 out going breakers from the Charge controllers, and a large DC disconnect for my inverter. I actually have removed the 3rd array and hope to do an array dedicated to direct DC hot water heater. I'm using the extra outgoing breaker for a second inverter. I think I could have done with a DC disconnect plus, but I still have an open DIN rail for AC which I may yet connect.
    Home system 4000 watt (Evergreen) array standing, with 2 Midnite Classic Lites,  Midnite E-panel, Magnum MS4024, Prosine 1800(now backup) and Exeltech 1100(former backup...lol), 660 ah 24v Forklift battery(now 10 years old). Off grid for 20 years (if I include 8 months on a bicycle).
    - Assorted other systems, pieces and to many panels in the closet to not do more projects.
  • TucsonAZ
    TucsonAZ Solar Expert Posts: 139 ✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.
    vtmaps wrote: »
    The output of the Classic goes directly to a circuit breaker (not the 175 amp breaker). If the breaker is a midnite din rail breaker it will have plus and minus markings... connect the classic output to the minus side of the breaker. The plus side of the breaker goes to battery positive. Anything and everything connected to the battery must pass through a circuit breaker.

    --vtMaps

    If that is the case and you go from the MidNite 150 output to the 175 amp disconnect... oh wait, is the DC disconnect on the side the actual 175 breaker?? It is, okay, I'm an idiot (my ex-wife was right), I was thinking it was just a damn disconnect switch, the world is right again.

    So, I run the output on the MidNite to the breaker with the battery and the MidNite output connected to one end of it and my inverter connected to the other end? I follow up to there now how do I get the power to the other breakers for output to the water pump and so on? Does that work like a bus bar on a house where the breakers I snap in are live or do I need to run a wire to each?

    Do I really need AC breakers? I'm mostly just going to run a 400w-500w a day chest freezer, a few chargers and not a ton else. If I ever have power to burn and run a toaster oven, I would first flip off the freezer to be sure they aren't both running at the same time. Or I may just do a dedicated 600w inverter for the chest freezer (3amp surge and 1.34 amps while running) and use two inverters.

    I'm really sorry for the questions, once I can picture how it works in my head I can put it together but the pictures I'm finding aren't for applications like I'm doing. I'm basically attempting to "future proof" with this build as I was initially just going to go with 600w and 2 batteries but upgraded because I got more value with 24v panels (enough to justify the Classic 150) and I didn't want to deal with trying to add onto a maxed out system in terms of wire, CC and so on.

    Thank you all, a lot, HUGE HELP and it's here for others with the same questions which is why I add model numbers and keywords in my posts, so they pop up in google searches.
  • vtmaps
    vtmaps Solar Expert Posts: 3,741 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.
    TucsonAZ wrote: »
    you go from the Outback 150 output to the
    <snip>
    enough to justify the Classic 150
    <snip>
    which is why I add model numbers and keywords in my posts

    So you will have both an Outback and a Classic?
    TucsonAZ wrote: »
    I'm really sorry for the questions

    Pardon my French, but your questions are the raison d'être of this forum :D

    Midnite has some excellent diagrams showing how to wire up their electrical panels. Check them out before you spend any money. Also, try to figure out what inverter(s) you want before spending any money.
    TucsonAZ wrote: »
    I'm basically attempting to "future proof" with this build
    In that case you really should focus your attention on the stretch ePanels.
    TucsonAZ wrote: »
    Do I really need AC breakers? I'm mostly just going to run a 400w-500w a day chest freezer, a few chargers and not a ton else.

    I suppose that if your wiring is thick enough to handle the maximum current of your inverter... have to think about that a bit... Could an inverter fault out in such a way to let DC through on the output? 175 amps of battery current on the AC wiring would certainly burn down the place.

    Also, if you ever have shore power or generator running through your AC wiring you would want breakers.

    btw, the ePanels come with a bypass switch. This switch allows you to bypass the inverter and send generator (or shore power) through your AC wiring. It's very nice to have if your inverter needs servicing.

    --vtMaps
    4 X 235watt Samsung, Midnite ePanel, Outback VFX3524 FM60 & mate, 4 Interstate L16, trimetric, Honda eu2000i
  • TucsonAZ
    TucsonAZ Solar Expert Posts: 139 ✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.
    vtmaps wrote: »
    So you will have both an Outback and a Classic?

    Fine, make me choose between them (: Designed by the same people, look the same, I corrected the mistype.
    vtmaps wrote: »
    Midnite has some excellent diagrams showing how to wire up their electrical panels. Check them out before you spend any money. Also, try to figure out what inverter(s) you want before spending any money.

    I have completely gone over their site (and all of the other ones) including enlarging pictures and looking at the diagrams on the inside doors, the issue is, I don't know what applies to my build and what doesn't so they add confusion.
    vtmaps wrote: »
    In that case you really should focus your attention on the stretch ePanels.

    I have a 160sqft roof, I'm installing 155sqft of solar panels on it, short of some Optimist Prime/Inspector Gadget slide out wing style arrays, I have no future in terms of upgrading. The above is the future proofing.
    vtmaps wrote: »
    I suppose that if your wiring is thick enough to handle the maximum current of your inverter... have to think about that a bit... Could an inverter fault out in such a way to let DC through on the output? 175 amps of battery current on the AC wiring would certainly burn down the place.

    The inverter I was planning on getting for the freezer and the couple of chargers I will use is a 1,000 watt pure sine, the manufacturer recommends 6awg wire for the run I'll be making and an 80a breaker, I will add another of the same thing down the line if I ever have a need for the additional power.
    vtmaps wrote: »
    Also, if you ever have shore power or generator running through your AC wiring you would want breakers.

    btw, the ePanels come with a bypass switch. This switch allows you to bypass the inverter and send generator (or shore power) through your AC wiring. It's very nice to have if your inverter needs servicing.

    My only wiring will be the plugs on the items I'm using, I will have no outlets other than the one on the inverter so if I ever have shore power or need to I would simply unplug the item from the inverter and plug it directly into the shore power cord. Or I may get a surge protector in the event I have two laptop chargers or something plugged in, if I could plug that into the inverter it would be good but if not that would be okay also. If I upgraded in a couple years I could add an AC panel with breakers for that but I really don't foresee having an inverter I can hardwire short of some really good deal falling into my lap.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.

    The 1,000 watt inverter is just on the ragged edge of running a refrigerator/freezer... 1,200 to 1,500 watt minimum should run just about any full size energy star rated fridge/freezer.

    If you know the 1kW inverter you are looking at will run a fridge--Then ignore me--Just a generic warning.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.
    BB. wrote: »
    The 1,000 watt inverter is just on the ragged edge of running a refrigerator/freezer... 1,200 to 1,500 watt minimum should run just about any full size energy star rated fridge/freezer.
    -Bill

    Assuming it is a QUALITY inverter. I will mention again my neighbor who had a cheap 2500w inverter that would not start his full-sized fridge.
    You could almost joke that if the inverter costs less than the fridge, it prolly won't start it :)
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • TucsonAZ
    TucsonAZ Solar Expert Posts: 139 ✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.
    BB. wrote: »
    The 1,000 watt inverter is just on the ragged edge of running a refrigerator/freezer... 1,200 to 1,500 watt minimum should run just about any full size energy star rated fridge/freezer.

    If you know the 1kW inverter you are looking at will run a fridge--Then ignore me--Just a generic warning.

    -Bill

    Don't think home sized fridge/freezer, this is a chest freezer so it's only roughly 4 cubic feet, the top opens not the front which is far more efficient (think about holding cold air like holding water and the top opening design makes a lot of sense for containing cold air) and I've taken the temp controller out and adjusted the course screw (the main 1-10 dial on the front is the fine adjustment) so that it runs at about 30 degrees instead of 0 to -15 degrees.

    It has a 3amp surge which drops to 1.36 while running and averages 22watts per hour of usage when it was running at 0 degrees which at the time of testing was the warmest I could run it.
  • BB.
    BB. Super Moderators, Administrators Posts: 33,439 admin
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.

    At least in the "cheap" boxes--The pumps seem to have similar starting/running current as the full sized refer/freezers.

    But--If you measured/tested--That is good to hear. It would be nice to find smaller units that did not need >600 watt surge inverters to run a 100 watt motor.

    -Bill
    Near San Francisco California: 3.5kWatt Grid Tied Solar power system+small backup genset
  • jcheil
    jcheil Solar Expert Posts: 722 ✭✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.
    TucsonAZ wrote: »
    Don't think home sized fridge/freezer, this is a chest freezer so it's only roughly 4 cubic feet, the top opens not the front which is far more efficient (think about holding cold air like holding water and the top opening design makes a lot of sense for containing cold air) and I've taken the temp controller out and adjusted the course screw (the main 1-10 dial on the front is the fine adjustment) so that it runs at about 30 degrees instead of 0 to -15 degrees.

    It has a 3amp surge which drops to 1.36 while running and averages 22watts per hour of usage when it was running at 0 degrees which at the time of testing was the warmest I could run it.

    if that is what it will use when full of food in a typical summer day then that's great energy usage! Do you have any issues with moisture and keeping the temperature even throughout the entire cooled space? Most people do with converted freezers since they don't have a circulating fan.
    Off-Grid in Central Florida since 2005, Full-Time since June 2014 | 12 X Sovello 205w panels, 9 X ToPoint 220w panels, 36x ToPoint 225w panels (12,525 watts total) | Custom built single-axis ground mounts | Complete FP2 Outback System: 3 x FM80, 2 x VFX3648, X240 Transformer, FLEXnet-DC, Mate-3, Hub-10, FW500 AC/DC | 24 x Trojan L16RE-B Batteries 1110ah @ 48v | Honda EU7000is Generator and a pile of "other" Generators | Home-Made PVC solar hot water collector | Custom data logging software http://www.somewhatcrookedcamp.com/monitormate.html
  • TucsonAZ
    TucsonAZ Solar Expert Posts: 139 ✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.
    jcheil wrote: »
    if that is what it will use when full of food in a typical summer day then that's great energy usage! Do you have any issues with moisture and keeping the temperature even throughout the entire cooled space? Most people do with converted freezers since they don't have a circulating fan.

    I'm just starting to get into the experimenting with the temps phase, I hooked it back up to my Kill-A-Watt and will see what it has to say now that I've adjusted the temps some. I have it set on 3 of 1-5 so it's right in the middle and I'm going to get it so that I can swing it about 10 degrees on either side of 25 degrees. If I can't do it with the stock controller I will use a digital but I wanted to avoid that if possible as it's another current draw which could be used for a simple case fan mod inside of the chest freezer. Depending on the swing though, I would actually welcome it, say if I were able to freeze the items on the bottom but not something like eggs in the top basket.
  • westbranch
    westbranch Solar Expert Posts: 5,183 ✭✭✭✭
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    Re: Can somebody go over this build and make certain I'm not missing anything.

    have a look at this file for consumption figures http://library.cee1.org/content/qualifying-product-lists-residential-refrigerators
     
    KID #51B  4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM
    CL#29032 FW 2126/ 2073/ 2133 175A E-Panel WBjr, 3 x 4s 140W to 24V 900Ah C&D AGM 
    Cotek ST1500W 24V Inverter,OmniCharge 3024,
    2 x Cisco WRT54GL i/c DD-WRT Rtr & Bridge,
    Eu3/2/1000i Gens, 1680W & E-Panel/WBjr to come, CL #647 asleep
    West Chilcotin, BC, Canada